Warmage Project {Sorcerer tree}

[dunklezhan]

a bunch of stuff based on what you think devs should be working on.

Utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand. Without random ideas like this, we'd never have got the metamagic per-spell selectors which was done by a dev during some alloted downtime, based on an idea someone had. This was in the middle of some fairly major other efforts as I recall at the time, but they had a go, found it was easier than first thought and before you know it BOOM it was live and we were all ecstatic.

There is zero harm is thrashing this out in a thread, for the devs to put in a pile marked 'pending enhancement changes'.

Right.

On topic - evocation vs conjuration vs whatever.

Thesnoman is correct it should only be evocation. You can probably stop reading there, I mean there's not a lot you can do to argue with that!

My only thought in terms of a DDO adaptation is that the savant tree is already an evocation specialist - in fact it's three evocation specialists and a conjuration specialist. What's wrong with a tree that bridges both?

[Silverleafeon]

Round two is up.

Highlights of changes:

Charisma for warmage edge.

Evocation bonuses only eliminating conjuration.

Removal of armor as it is duplicated in the EK tree.

Remove of acquiring divine spells, but expansion of acquiring arcane known spells.

Inclusion of some nice extras such as wand mastery, and an option on spellcraft skills.

Addition of SLAs at tier 2 and capstone.


Thanks for all the help!
The old tree is right below the new one, so compare and decide which pieces are better.

Should more SLAs be included, or less?
Does the capstone look decent?

[thesnoman]

Your warmage toggles are very interesting.

Thank you - Most of the effort I put into this tree is in the Core Abilities. This is, (as is implied by 'Core abilities'), where I believe you should be getting what truly makes you a Warmage. The Toggles are to give the Warmage versatility - something it really wouldn't have in PnP, but will need in order to be viable in DDO.

Interesting, I have not placed SLAs in the warmage tree yet.
I kind of want to be different from the Savant trees if possible.

I agree - I struggled with putting SLAs into this tree, but decided that the only way to get Blade Barrier would be as an SLA - and it would need a substantial investment in this tree to get it - sometimes in things you really don't want...hence me putting SLAs into this tree.

A good approach to the sudden metamagic conversion problem.

Thank you. Again - there was a lot of thought put into this area as well - and I think, from a developer's standpoint, it would be easier to implement than trying to add more feats to an established class. Keep in mind that using these would still require an investment in the original Metamagic Feat in order for it to be useful.

Some light shields have ASF, don't they?
I guess we have spell agility augments now a days.

Yes and Yes.

No spell pen in my tree yet, but spell pen is mostly for instant kills and enchantments.

Again - I struggled with this one, but it made sense where it would go in the tree.

Interesting concept, labeling by energy type instead of school type.

It's been done before - this actually came straight from Archmage. Again - from a Development Standpoint, I figured it would be easier to implement than trying to implement improved critical chance based on School.

This I will have to adopt, its excellently done.

Like the above, I can't take credit for this - it's been done before in other trees and I thought that those two Stats would most benefit the Warmage and it would really make the player have to choose which benefits his particular character more.

I like the thought of a warmage using Eschew metamagic for free.

It's a feat that is never chosen because materials are so cheap. Therefore, for a large investment into this tree, I thought it made a good enhancement.

Nicely done.


Blade Barrier is a definite sweet tier five, not sure it will fly past Alpha, but it should be considered.

I made sure it required a large investment into the tree - it's not cheap to get. I'd even consider inserting another required SLA to get it. Speaking of which, I'd also consider changing up the first two SLA's to spells that aren't typically available to Sorcerers - more versatility.

I love these two.

Those were easy as a Warmage would have spent years training so that his spell casting time is less hindered by movement. They also make take substantial investment into the tree to acquire.

And comes the big question, charisma or not charisma???
I definitely like how you tied this into the Capstone, we should have more of that type of thing in DDO.

A typical Sorcerer is going to have between 40 and 80 charisma depending upon their gimpness.
Assume a Cha of 60ish = 25 damage bonus.
The same Sorcerer might have an Int of 10+8+2+tomes
Assume a Cha of 24ish = 7 damage bonus.

There is quite a difference in the two, and frankly the latter might not be worthy of tier 5.

My thoughts were also along this line. My current Sorcerer has a 50 Charisma (unbuffed) and a 30 Intelligence (unbuffed). As was suggested earlier in this thread, it could be made into a toggle, but I'm guessing that no Sorcerer would choose Intelligence over Charisma so there is no need to waste additional development time on it.

Thanks again, nice write up, will be using pieces and we might consider something like this for the alternate tree.

Thanks again - I put more time than I normally would into something like this, but I really think this one is worth the effort.

[Irastirdadt]

Realy Love your ideas, but i think the enhacement to criticals in elemental and force should be 1% per tier, like the archmage tree. (or improve the archmage tree to this!)

Realy great job!

[thesnoman]

Realy Love your ideas, but i think the enhacement to criticals in elemental and force should be 1% per tier, like the archmage tree. (or improve the archmage tree to this!)

Realy great job!

I made it 2% because there are not the huge bonuses to elemental spell power like in the standard Savant trees - which get 2% for their specific element.

Additionally, Wizards get to change their spells at will - Sorcs are pretty much stuck with the spells they choose during level up (unless you have a huge stock of dragon blood). I think it would need to be play tested to see if it is really overpowered, but it should start at 2% and be reduced, not start at 1% and hope that if it isn't powerful enough that the devs decide to bump it up.

Archmages DO NOT need it bumped to 2% - they already have Arcane Supremacy

T5 Archmage:
Your offensive spells gain a 10% chance to trigger Arcane Supremacy.
Arcane Supremacy: +25% Spell Critical Chance, +100% Spell Critical Damage. 12 seconds duration. This effect may trigger only once every 90 seconds..

[Silverleafeon]

I placed thesnoman tree in post #4 since I would like to offer two trees for more variety to the Devs.
We can work on it too.


Three new official discussion threads by Sev are up now, the one that most concerns this thread is here
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...eloper-Diary-1
Armor will now become useful finally.

Docents will be part of this new system, they are not listed at the moment, but it has been publicly stated somewhere.
Here it is again:

Yes.

Mithral Body will be treated as Light armor and provide 10 PRR.
Adamantine Body will be treated as Heavy Armor and provide 30 PRR.

Sev~

Honestly, one has to spend 23 points in the EK tree to gain light armor, medium armor, shields, and +30 force power.
I find that an excessive alternative to building up in the Warmage tree.

Mostly humans, races with amp/self heals, warforged, and bladeforged will use this tree.
So adding Docents to any armor options is important.

I would like to make these trees further apart from the Savant trees if possible.

[autochthon]

So I've been dorking around with EK in general (and reading this thread) and my opinion is that before (or along with) an additional "battlemage" option EK needs a near total overhaul.

I mean look at the stuff propsoed in this enhancement tree compared to EK. Immediate light armour and immediate ASF removal in light armour puts EK's armour mastery to shame. Now this isn't an issue with the proposed Warmage, it's an issue with EK's design (being poor overall) and EK's lack of focus.

I suggest that Warmage be exclusive with EK, you get one or the other and not both with immediate light armour for the Warmage as in previous trees. I might also make other suggestions for both trees later but for the time being that's my immediate recommendation. Keep in mind that almost every option presented in most recommendations is strictly superior to similar options available to EK (Battlemage, Energy Resistance, etc). Perhaps EK has a slated upgrade planned but compared to live WM is pretty much saying "I do everything EK does better except wear armour and maybe smack things with my sword"

Edit: Thes's tree feels a bit better than your revised proposal in terms of representing the PnP

Edit2: Is there anything going on for proposals for EK?If not is there interest on making some propsals to get EK in a better spot?

[Exiledtyrant]

I agree with what is being said about EK. Ek got slammed with lazy cores, a half finished scaling system, poor proficiency planning ( see shield prof) and wasted slots like the critical confirm and damage while classes are getting crit range and multi buffs now. What's worse it looks like the spell power scaling that was half finished was just a test for the new melee power that is coming now.

As for war mage I think the trees intent needs to be clearly defined before any solid feedback can be given on it. What is it trying to accomplish for casters right now? Wizards don't have a spell damage tree and Sorcerers don't have a DC tree. That's what I've always seen the big split to be. Both could use a generalists tree so that they can focus heavy in 1 element and have back up when something is immune. A tree that works better than trying to crutch on two savants because even having 2 strong elements doesn't work everywhere.


I think the things to stay away from are critical hit chance, bonus meta magic feats, armor, short term spell power and damage that won't scale well. More elemental penetration would be nice as I don't think casters are saturated with that stat yet. Critical hit for magic is already very easy to get high. Adding another critical hit line is probably pushing it. They feel more like filler than useful .Wizards are drowning up to their eye balls in extra meta magic and sorcerers are probably only looking for 3 metas to fit in anyway. Armor is supposed to be one of the things the EK is ahead in and spell failure was a joke before EK enhancements. Short term spell power pressures casters to spam spells on limited spell points. The charisma score to spell damage seems fairly weak as well for a T5. That's what 40 more damage at super high CHA? 40 damage is an ok addition to a melee attack because of the multipliers or speed of application, but not so much on a spell.

Things like concentration and mobile spell casting are also kind of a waste. Concentration is pretty much useless after level 15 and if you needs feats like mobile spell casting or ways to help with interrupt your better off with quicken. Trees are getting useful enhancements now we don't have to shoot for lame stuff like haggle 1/2/3 anymore.

I think the tree should be the best at universal spell power, have enhancements that reduce spell points, empower meta magics not award them, and give a large selection of SLAs. It needs to be more than what the savants became which is just a 4 way copy and paste with maybe 3 different enhancements between them.

[Silverleafeon]

So I've been dorking around with EK in general (and reading this thread) and my opinion is that before (or along with) an additional "battlemage" option EK needs a near total overhaul.

I mean look at the stuff propsoed in this enhancement tree compared to EK. Immediate light armour and immediate ASF removal in light armour puts EK's armour mastery to shame. Now this isn't an issue with the proposed Warmage, it's an issue with EK's design (being poor overall) and EK's lack of focus.

I agree.

I suggest that Warmage be exclusive with EK, you get one or the other and not both with immediate light armour for the Warmage as in previous trees. I might also make other suggestions for both trees later but for the time being that's my immediate recommendation. Keep in mind that almost every option presented in most recommendations is strictly superior to similar options available to EK (Battlemage, Energy Resistance, etc). Perhaps EK has a slated upgrade planned but compared to live WM is pretty much saying "I do everything EK does better except wear armour and maybe smack things with my sword"

Yes, we will have to compare the two trees carefully.

Edit: Thes's tree feels a bit better than your revised proposal in terms of representing the PnP

Honestly, I like Thes tree better than my round 2.
Thes tree has personality and flavor where as my is rather bland numbers.

Edit2: Is there anything going on for proposals for EK?If not is there interest on making some propsals to get EK in a better spot?

I will certainly listen and we can make a list of possible quick fixes.
If the Devs ever go into an area they tend to wander around, then leave, so it could happen.
Be good to make a quick fix list for the EK tree.
Low coding time, but good impact.

I agree with what is being said about EK. Ek got slammed with lazy cores, a half finished scaling system, poor proficiency planning ( see shield prof) and wasted slots like the critical confirm and damage while classes are getting crit range and multi buffs now. What's worse it looks like the spell power scaling that was half finished was just a test for the new melee power that is coming now.

Nods and listens.

As for war mage I think the trees intent needs to be clearly defined before any solid feedback can be given on it. What is it trying to accomplish for casters right now? Wizards don't have a spell damage tree and Sorcerers don't have a DC tree. That's what I've always seen the big split to be. Both could use a generalists tree so that they can focus heavy in 1 element and have back up when something is immune. A tree that works better than trying to crutch on two savants because even having 2 strong elements doesn't work everywhere.

I agree, we need to find our focus and rally around a theme and purpose.

I think the things to stay away from are critical hit chance, bonus meta magic feats, armor, short term spell power and damage that won't scale well.

Listens closely.

More elemental penetration would be nice as I don't think casters are saturated with that stat yet. Critical hit for magic is already very easy to get high. Adding another critical hit line is probably pushing it. They feel more like filler than useful .Wizards are drowning up to their eye balls in extra meta magic and sorcerers are probably only looking for 3 metas to fit in anyway. Armor is supposed to be one of the things the EK is ahead in and spell failure was a joke before EK enhancements. Short term spell power pressures casters to spam spells on limited spell points. The charisma score to spell damage seems fairly weak as well for a T5. That's what 40 more damage at super high CHA? 40 damage is an ok addition to a melee attack because of the multipliers or speed of application, but not so much on a spell.

Listens.

Things like concentration and mobile spell casting are also kind of a waste. Concentration is pretty much useless after level 15 and if you needs feats like mobile spell casting or ways to help with interrupt your better off with quicken. Trees are getting useful enhancements now we don't have to shoot for lame stuff like haggle 1/2/3 anymore.

EE combat damage means concentration failure, this very true.
Interestingly enough many Sorcerers don't use quicken because the count on the speed of their spells to help.
The Mobile Spell casting would increase your speed slightly.

I think the tree should be the best at universal spell power, have enhancements that reduce spell points, empower meta magics not award them, and give a large selection of SLAs. It needs to be more than what the savants became which is just a 4 way copy and paste with maybe 3 different enhancements between them.

SLAs are always welcome in any caster tree.
They actually represent free metamagics on a limited basis which is what Warmage Sudden Metamagic is in a way.

[autochthon]

EK proposal in EK thread (not entirely quick fixes but the areas that are just changes to functionality should be)

Highlights of the proposal:

Improved Mage Armor (1, 3): Toggle, gain the effects of Mage Armor. Additionally increase armor by 7/14/20% when affected by mage armor
Reasoning: A slight buff to the the AC for EK. Mostly just to be a biut tankier to fit the total theme. Toggle effect fixes the need for duration maintenance.

Improved Shield (1, 3):Requires Improved Mage Armor Toggle, gain the effect of shield. While the shield spell is affecting you increase PRR (and MRR) by 3/7/10%
Reasoning: Same as above. Fits the theme. Change to % bonus linearizes the total defensive gain from the effect. Makes it more attractive as a level splash, but *shrug*

Elemental Resistance (1,3): +3/7/10% elemental damage resistance
Reasoning: Improves scaling.

Armor Mastery (2,2): Gain Proficiency in Medium/Heavy armor and 5/10% ASF. Requires Light armor Mastery
Reasoning: This lets a T4 EK choose to go all the way on armor if they do a pure class build. The 5% additional potential ASF isn't quite enough to wear heavy armors effectively without a supporting race. At leats not while using a shield with ASF

Tenser's Transcendance (1,1): Replaces Transformation. Passively gain the effect of Tenser's Transformation, Passively increse the effect of Alchemical Bonuses on you by +2
Reasoning: This is a straight up buff. As one of the few T5 abilities with a direct drawback it feels rather lacklustre. The bonus alchemical effect value makes it more tempting and the permanence makes it a choice between having and not (your other option is an Epic Destiny).

Doublestrike: Removed
Reasoning: Merged with eldritch tempest

Eldritch Tempest (2, 3): Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +(1/2/3)[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 1 second. (Activation Cost: 50/30/10 Spell points. Cooldown: 60/40/20 seconds)
If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. This ability shares a cooldown with Great Cleave
Passive: +1/2/3% Doublestrike
Reasoning: Straight buffs on an ability that is generally viewed as lacklustre. The cooldown share makes it a replacement for great cleave to prevent AoE getting out of hand compared to a straight fighter as well as making an EK that ca't take power attack for whatever reason not feel too left out. The merge with doublestrike means a low level splash will need to commit to get the "free" doublestrike. And it reduces overall cost in tree a bit.


With that out of the way (those were the lesser changes, my full proposal has a number of large changes to cores and the tree itself).

I think Warmage would be best stressing SUDDEN metamagic (as free metamagic) without free grants and as multiselectors. A strong focus on spells with asssociated DCs. And general mastery. One option would be to provide the ability to "prepare" a spell as an SLA. Instead of just sudden metamagic you could get extremeley flexible SLA slots. For instance

Warmage Spell Mastery T1 (available T2)
Whenever you rest you may prepare a spell of up to (1st/2nd/3rd) level as your warmage focus. Until your next rest you cast the spell as a spell like ability.

Warmage Spell Mastery T2 (available T4)
As above except levels 4/5/6

Warmage Spell Mastery T3 (Available T5)
As above except 7/8/9

Each level requires matching rank in the level below it.

High flexibility. Powerful. And represents a solid commitment (I recommend 2 points per rank in each). This would be in addition to any sudden metamagic.

[Silverleafeon]

Thanks Auto, this stuff is great and muchly appreciated.

[autochthon]

You're welcome. Tho I'd pitch the whole EK package I presented in the link if possible (it includes SLA's and a full much needed Core overhaul if you didn't look).

Have you considered Sudden Metamagic as an Action Boost? A capstone Action boost granting completely free metamagic for 20 seconds would actually be interesting (and expand the toolbox of thes's kit) for a 20 level commitment. The current capstone proposals are a little bland.

[Exiledtyrant]

I was thinking about how sudden meta magics and advanced learning could be translated into DDO. I have thought of this so far.

Core 1
Each point spent in this tree provides 1 universal spell power.
Spells affected by the Empower meta magic now bypass elemental resistance equal to caster level of the spell.

Core 3
Pick an evocation or conjuration spell from your current spell list. This spell is now a 10 sp SLA that can be used every 6 seconds.

+ 10 universal spell power

Core 6
Spells affected by the Maximize meta magic now double the range and area of effect
+10 universal spell power

Core 12
Pick an evocation or conjuration spell from your current spell list. This spell is now a 10 sp SLA that can be used every 6 seconds.
+ 10 universal spell power

Core 18
Spells affected by the Heighten meta magic now increase the DC of that spell by 3

+10 universal spell power

Core 20
+2 Charisma

Pick an evocation or conjuration spell from your current spell list. This spell is now a 10 sp SLA that can be used every 6 seconds

Remove the caster level cap on all evocation and conjuration spells.


Tier One


Spell Efficency I:
Every 6th Real spell cast is free
Cost 2

Magical Device Expertise I:
+3 use magical device
Cost 2

******************

I think with 2 tiered enhancement lines you could take out 2 slots per 1-5 tier. This would lead to need 2 unique enhancements for tier 1 and 2, 1 unique enhancements for tier 3 and 4 as stats would take up a slot and 3-4 unique enhancements for tier 5. Wand/scroll mastery could have a home here instead of EK.


That leaves room for more SLAs, maybe spell casting feats outside of meta magics, maybe ways to modify existing SLAs. I cant think of any right now but UMD is definitely more attractive than concentration and less boring than spellcraft. Scaling from 1 free spell every 6 to 3 casts may also be nice. Not sure on the power level between giving so many SLAs and a free cast for using non SLA spells though. There are infinite SP builds floating around though.

[autochthon]

I was thinking about how sudden meta magics and advanced learning could be translated into DDO. I have though of this so far.

Core 1
Each point spent in this tree provides 1 universal spell power.
Spells affected by the Empower meta magic now bypass elemental resistance equal to caster level of the spell.

Core 3
Pick an evocation or conjuration spell from your current spell list. This spell is now a 10 sp SLA that can be used every 6 seconds.

+ 10 universal spell power

Core 6
Spells affected by the Maximize meta magic now double the range and area of effect
+10 universal spell power

Core 12
Pick an evocation or conjuration spell from your current spell list. This spell is now a 10 sp SLA that can be used every 6 seconds.
+ 10 universal spell power

Core 18
Spells affected by the Heighten meta magic now increase the DC of that spell by 3

+10 universal spell power

Core 20
+2 Charisma

Pick an evocation or conjuration spell from your current spell list. This spell is now a 10 sp SLA that can be used every 6 seconds

Remove the caster level cap on all evocation and conjuration spells.


Tier One


Spell Efficency I:
Every 6th Real spell cast is free
Cost 2

Magical Device Expertise I:
+3 use magical device
Cost 2

******************

I think with 2 tiered enhancement lines you could take out 2 slots per 1-5 tier. This would lead to need 2 unique enhancements for tier 1 and 2, 1 unique enhancements for tier 3 and 4 as stats would take up a slot and 3-4 unique enhancements for tier 5. Wand/scroll mastery could have a home here instead of EK.


That leaves room for more SLAs, maybe spell casting feats outside of meta magics, maybe ways to modify existing SLAs. I cant think of any right now but UMD is definitely more attractive than concentration and less boring than spellcraft. Scaling from 1 free spell every 6 to 3 casts may also be nice. Not sure on the power level between giving so many SLAs and a free cast for using non SLA spells though. There re infinite SP builds floating around though.

How to break that: Respec AP at level 18+ as a full caster. Choose 1 or more ninth level spells. They're now SLAs AND cost 10 spell points. Which spells would I choose?

Power Word Kill
Meteor Swarm
Energy Drain
WotB

Any and all are expensive spells with middling to long cooldowns. While I'm sure that wouldn't be WAI, that's what the RAW is on those suggestions :P I mean I'm all for WotB as a permanent buff but it's pretty ridiculous.

[Exiledtyrant]

How to break that: Respec AP at level 18+ as a full caster. Choose 1 or more ninth level spells. They're now SLAs AND cost 10 spell points. Which spells would I choose?

Power Word Kill
Meteor Swarm
Energy Drain
WotB

Any and all are expensive spells with middling to long cooldowns. While I'm sure that wouldn't be WAI, that's what the RAW is on those suggestions :P I mean I'm all for WotB as a permanent buff but it's pretty ridiculous.

Your listing in necromancy spells when it only specifies evocation and conjuration. Power word kill is a bit of a slip as I didn't think it was an exception compared to the other Power words which are enchantment and not conjuration. If meteor swarm is problematic the list could be taken down to spell level 1-8 and still be useful. Sorcerers don't know cooldowns to begin with so tacking on 6 seconds onto a spell that barely goes on CD for 1 second was supposed to be the trade off.

[autochthon]

Your listing in necromancy spells when it only specifies evocation and conjuration. Power word kill is a bit of a slip as I didn't think it was an exception compared to the other Power words which are enchantment and not conjuration. If meteor swarm is problematic the list could be taken down to spell level 1-8 and still be useful. Sorcerers don't know cooldowns to begin with so tacking on 6 seconds onto a spell that barely goes on CD for 1 second was supposed to be the trade off.

Slightly misread it my bad. But the point was basically "pick high level spell it's now essentially free and can have all metamagic applied to it". May or may not become rather broken depending on how many metamagics you have access to.

[Seikojin]

Looking at the trees proposed, they seem a bit strong like others have said, especially if you multi-class into a different evocation class.

Thesnoman - I really like this proposal for a tree. Very EK - like, but more on the spell offensive side. I think the SLA's should be multi-selectors for various elements for that caster level. So burning hands, acid spray, mm, etc. Representing the primary element you want to take. Yes this can clash or pair well with savants, and it should. Make mirrored SLA's anti-req each other out, so you can't have burning hands 3 times (sla, sla, spell).

Also the tier 5 mastery thing; I like the idea of adding cha/stat to something. Just make it add to the relevant spell power. Less buggy, adds power, but not op when casting low level/damage spells/sla's.

Maybe ad +1 dc's in the cores for evo, making their dps more reliable as enemies fail to save on reflex.

The metamagic stuff. I think the idea is cool, however I think it should cut the sp cost down dramatically, but not remove the cost completely. As your proposal, they will be diminishing their returns as you click the second, third, 4th enhancement, so people will take max and empower ones and not take others. I think if it was similar to the existing meta magic savers, but stacks, it would allow warmages to be that much more desirable. Meaning instead of dual savants, you will have focused savant warmages.

However, I really like the idea of a 3rd tree for casters. Aren't sorcs supposed to get wildmage or flesh shaper?

[autochthon]

"Supposed to" is kinda vague. To be honest Savants could use a pass to help differentiate them and taht's something that should be done if Sorc gets touched. I think Warmage as a "third" tree on Sorc makes sense since it can be a flexible non-gimmick tree.

Interestingly it would be a direct counterpart to Archmage XD

[Silverleafeon]

You're welcome. Tho I'd pitch the whole EK package I presented in the link if possible (it includes SLA's and a full much needed Core overhaul if you didn't look).

Thanks, I went and read it. Good Stuff, we can pitch this in with the rest.

Have you considered Sudden Metamagic as an Action Boost? A capstone Action boost granting completely free metamagic for 20 seconds would actually be interesting (and expand the toolbox of thes's kit) for a 20 level commitment. The current capstone proposals are a little bland.

Excellent idea.
It is difficult to deal with short term free boosts but one had enough of them it might work out well.
The theory is very interesting.

.....That leaves room for more SLAs, maybe spell casting feats outside of meta magics, maybe ways to modify existing SLAs. I cant think of any right now but UMD is definitely more attractive than concentration and less boring than spellcraft.... There are infinite SP builds floating around though.

Thanks for the write up.
Warmage is looking more and more like we ought to go down the Archmage path with a Warmage feel to it.
I wonder if a copy and paste then modify like crazy approach would work.
The other approach is huge metamagic discounts.

I do like the choice of changing SLAs.

How to break that: Any and all are expensive spells with middling to long cooldowns. While I'm sure that wouldn't be WAI, that's what the RAW is on those suggestions :P I mean I'm all for WotB as a permanent buff but it's pretty ridiculous.

I believe typically converting to an SLA is double cooldown with half the spell cost and metamagics for free,
then it is altered for power consideration. Less sp costs or better spell = longer cooldown.

I the Devs are going to want to list their SLAs and pick over them even if the list is huge.

Sorcerers don't know cooldowns to begin with so tacking on 6 seconds onto a spell that barely goes on CD for 1 second was supposed to be the trade off.

True cooldown for Sorcerer is rather low.

Slightly misread it my bad. But the point was basically "pick high level spell it's now essentially free and can have all metamagic applied to it". May or may not become rather broken depending on how many metamagics you have access to.

Wondering about a "pick a metamagic, its total sp cost is cut in half after all other modifiers are applied?"

Looking at the trees proposed, they seem a bit strong like others have said, especially if you multi-class into a different evocation class.

Nods, next round will look a lot different, I think.

Thesnoman - I really like this proposal for a tree. Very EK - like, but more on the spell offensive side. I think the SLA's should be multi-selectors for various elements for that caster level. So burning hands, acid spray, mm, etc. Representing the primary element you want to take. Yes this can clash or pair well with savants, and it should. Make mirrored SLA's anti-req each other out, so you can't have burning hands 3 times (sla, sla, spell).

Selection of SLAs is tricky, I almost want to copy and paste the Armage tree for SLA, lol...

Also the tier 5 mastery thing; I like the idea of adding cha/stat to something. Just make it add to the relevant spell power. Less buggy, adds power, but not op when casting low level/damage spells/sla's.

Hmm...I wonder. Maybe.
We could do a lot less power boosts elsewhere if we just allowed it to be normal.
What would happen if it was Cha modifier adds to you universal spell power instead or damage to spells?
That would be super easy to program and not over powered?

Maybe ad +1 dc's in the cores for evo, making their dps more reliable as enemies fail to save on reflex.

I did a study once and found that extra +1 DC was more important than +1 crit bonus.

The metamagic stuff. I think the idea is cool, however I think it should cut the sp cost down dramatically, but not remove the cost completely. As your proposal, they will be diminishing their returns as you click the second, third, 4th enhancement, so people will take max and empower ones and not take others. I think if it was similar to the existing meta magic savers, but stacks, it would allow warmages to be that much more desirable. Meaning instead of dual savants, you will have focused savant warmages.

To stack perhaps the "cut sp cost of metamagics in half after other modifiers are applied would work?"

However, I really like the idea of a 3rd tree for casters.

Nods happily me too.

Aren't sorcs supposed to get wildmage or flesh shaper?

I don't get to see the white boards the devs have, and if Sorcerer was in progress in the Player's Council area, I could not be talking to you right now about this. I do recall long ago, some thoughts thrown out in a public statement, but likely it was brainstorming and no more.

"Supposed to" is kinda vague. To be honest Savants could use a pass to help differentiate them and taht's something that should be done if Sorc gets touched. I think Warmage as a "third" tree on Sorc makes sense since it can be a flexible non-gimmick tree.

I think something straight up would be nice, since the Savant all tilt the boat this way and that with their elemental focus.

Interestingly it would be a direct counterpart to Archmage XD

And now I really need to read thru the Archmage tree, lol...


Thanks all, very good feedback, I will try to get the next round going even if its not perfect so we can move forward from here.

[Silverleafeon]

Round 3 is up.

Basically, I copied the armor placement of the EK tree, then toned down a few things, but tried to make it interesting.
See what you think.

Round 2, then 1 are below it and the other tree is still in its own post.