Dragonborn Race

[Uska]

Le sigh. I know it's only looks, but I really don't want to play anything that looks like a gnome.

Viva La Aasamir!

as a lesser choice and a 28pt build grudgingly

[Braegan]

as a lesser choice and a 28pt build grudgingly

Well with the +'s they get yeah would only be fair to treat them like Drow.

[Failedlegend]

no need to be a smarty pants you know the usage and you also know it applies to most of the races being asked for. Drow had to be diluted to have them be non-munchkin and so would any of the munchkin races by being 28pt builds. The only Gnome I can remember off-hand that is wisdom based is deep gnomes and would need a bit of dilution

I was clearly joking Uska and no Drow need not have been diluted it would have been much better to have given them a variable starting stat...ie. +2 X, -2 Con (x = Dex, Cha or Int) it's one of the many GREAT ideas 4e had to get rid of the ill-advised Level adjusted system and 5e keeps this variable stats idea albeit in a different way.

Also to clarify Drow were not given 28pts because of their stat block their were given it because their a Level adjusted race...they should have either gone with the variable idea or made them Lesser Drow (player’s guide to faerun pg.191)

Also for reference

Lesser Aasimar player’s guide to faerun pg.191
Lesser Genasi player’s guide to faerun pg.191
Lesser Tiefling player’s guide to faerun pg.191

[Uska]

I was clearly joking Uska and no Drow need not have been diluted it would have been much better to have given them a variable starting stat...ie. +2 X, -2 Con (x = Dex, Cha or Int) it's one of the many GREAT ideas 4e had to get rid of the ill-advised Level adjusted system and 5e keeps this variable stats idea albeit in a different way.

Also to clarify Drow were not given 28pts because of their stat block their were given it because their a Level adjusted race...they should have either gone with the variable idea or made them Lesser Drow (player’s guide to faerun pg.191)

Also for reference

Lesser Aasimar player’s guide to faerun pg.191
Lesser Air Genasi player’s guide to faerun pg.191
Lesser Earth Genasi player’s guide to faerun pg.191
Lesser Fire Genasi player’s guide to faerun pg.191
Lesser Water Genasi player’s guide to faerun pg.191
Lesser Tiefling player’s guide to faerun pg.191

I don't have access to and refuse to look anything to do with FR and the term good idea and 4 E souls never be used in the same sentence

[Seikojin]

If you want a dragon under your control, check out empires of istaria.

[Failedlegend]

I don't have access to and refuse to look anything to do with FR and the term good idea and 4 E souls never be used in the same sentence

Whilst I am also not a big fan of the realms the mighty WotC and/or Hasbro has deemed it necessary to go there and I may as well try to use it for SOME good which includes attempting to convince the devs NEVER to make another 28pt race.

As for Good idea+ 4e all I can say is I loved my time with 4e, I obviously left for the much superior PF but 4e had alot of GREAT ideas which could be used efficiently elsewhere. (and alot of mistakes that people can learn from)

I know it's hard to understand but even so-called failures are a learning experiencing for any developer especially if you can isolate what did work out of said failure and why it worked all culminating in how can I use the stuff that worked.

[dunklezhan]

Trying not to derail too much, but what other wis races are their to pick from to suggest to the devs?

If that was the goal I'd say easier to just implement pathfinder humans: Just let 'em pick one stat to add +2 to at character gen along with their free feat (or instead of the free feat? As the free feat?). Bosh, done. No special powers, not really hard to code I wouldn't have thought, and we have a wis race. The pressure is off to introduce dullness as the next outing and give us something interesting.

Also, I'm happy to have something freaky looking and capable of interesting new builds rather than something that just makes old builds better.

[Uska]

Whilst I am also not a big fan of the realms the mighty WotC and/or Hasbro has deemed it necessary to go there and I may as well try to use it for SOME good which includes attempting to convince the devs NEVER to make another 28pt race.

As for Good idea+ 4e all I can say is I loved my time with 4e, I obviously left for the much superior PF but 4e had alot of GREAT ideas which could be used efficiently elsewhere. (and alot of mistakes that people can learn from)

I know it's hard to understand but even so-called failures are a learning experiencing for any developer especially if you can isolate what did work out of said failure and why it worked all culminating in how can I use the stuff that worked.

I mainly left pnp dnd for the superior hackmaster 5

Name a good idea from 4e their race ideas no, healing surges hell no.

and there is absolutely nothing wrong with 28pt races

[Zachski]

If you want a dragon under your control, check out empires of istaria.

That makes about as much sense as "If you want to play a gnome, go play World of Warcraft."

[EDIT: Okay, I realize now that you were probably just offering alternative suggestions for people looking to play as dragons. Sorry about the harshness of my post then.]

Not to mention, Istaria is pretty much the only MMORPG, other than Neverwinter Online (behind a HEFTY price tag) and MAYBE Tera Online (depending on how you count the Aman) to allow you to play as a dragon-ish race. Istaria's gameplay isn't for everyone, not to mention you can't just buy the dragon race, you have to pay monthly to get it.

Meanwhile, in the land of Dungeons and Dragons, as much as Uska wish it wasn't true, Eberron is one of the settings that explicitly supports the Dragonborn Race. Forgotten Realms is one of the other settings. Guess what settings DDO features? This makes it the perfect game to feature Dragonborn.

Also, as of 4E, dragonborn are a core race, so Uska's arguing about it being splat is hilariously wrong by this point. And Dragonborn are, as much as Uska refuses to admit, one of the good things to come from 4E.

Remember, 3.5 was the 4E of its era, despised by all of those who preferred the "much better 2E".

Nothing wrong with MORE MMORPGs having dragons as playable characters. I mean, hell, you can't even say it's overdone because playable dragons are an astounding minority of games. Elves are literally more overdone than dragons.

[Uska]

That makes about as much sense as "If you want to play a gnome, go play World of Warcraft."

Not to mention, Istaria is pretty much the only MMORPG, other than Neverwinter Online (behind a HEFTY price tag) and MAYBE Tera Online (depending on how you count the Aman) to allow you to play as a dragon-ish race. Istaria's gameplay isn't for everyone, not to mention you can't just buy the dragon race, you have to pay monthly to get it.

Meanwhile, in the land of Dungeons and Dragons, as much as Uska wish it wasn't true, Eberron is one of the settings that explicitly supports the Dragonborn Race. Forgotten Realms is one of the other settings. Guess what settings DDO features? This makes it the perfect game to feature Dragonborn.

Also, as of 4E, dragonborn are a core race, so Uska's arguing about it being splat is hilariously wrong by this point. And Dragonborn are, as much as Uska refuses to admit, one of the good things to come from 4E.

Remember, 3.5 was the 4E of its era, despised by all of those who preferred the "much better 2E".

Nothing wrong with MORE MMORPGs having dragons as playable characters. I mean, hell, you can't even say it's overdone because playable dragons are an astounding minority of games. Elves are literally more overdone than dragons.

Ummm check again they were retrofitted to make the munchkins happy the way it was originally put out they would have been killed by the dragons of Argo


Also,we aren't 4E which is dead by the way

And 4E making dragonborn core just further proves my point that nothing good has come from 4E notice I said races and healing surges just being two the powers per day,encounter and at will are another horrible idea


Also your sig is wrong true old school was gnomes and no dragonborn!

Old school the start here!

[Violith]

Ummm check again they were retrofitted to make the munchkins happy the way it was originally put out they would have been killed by the dragons of Argo


Also,we aren't 4E which is dead by the way

And 4E making dragonborn core just further proves my point that nothing good has come from 4E notice I said races and healing surges just being two the powers per day,encounter and at will are another horrible idea


Also your sig is wrong true old school was gnomes and no dragonborn!

Old school the start here!

ok... I've read through the ebberron campaign books, and I dont see any mention of their views on dragonborn. the dragons of Argo are interested in the prophecy, and the chamber are set about actively making it come about by researching the dragonmarks on the humanoid races. however, nowhere is it written that their views are to kill anyone, While they view humanoids as a lesser race, their goals have nothing to do with ridding the world of such things. Not to mention that Dragonborn (atleast in 3.5) serve bahamut as a god-deity, to rid the world of evil minions of tiamut (chromatic dragons) While in ebberron chromatic and metalic dragons dont have a split divide such as that, They still revere dragons, and would have no reason to be killed over their race. as they are written, dragonborn are not half-dragons created from a humanoid and a dragon, They are a ritualistic metamorphosis of a humanoid race into a draconic one by hearing and revering the voice of bahamut.

now, in the players guide it does say "Half-dragons are rare in the world of Eberron. Since the first attempt by the House of Vol to reconcile the warring races of elves and dragons by creating a half-dragon, such intermingling has been viewed as an abomination against all that is noble and pure. Dragons do not breed with nondragons by choice, and they go out of their way to exterminate any half-dragon they encounter", and then goes on to say" half-dragons and draconic creatures (descendants of half-dragons whose blood has been diluted through generations) do exist."

so even while half-dragons would be hunted down, They arent exterminated fully. So even as a half-dragon (made from a dragon and humanoid, which I believe the 4e dragonborn isnt) It is still possible in ebberron setting. And, PC characters in of themselves are considered rare, so even if hundreds of players made one, They would still be considered rare compared to the population of the world setting. And, seeing as how just about everyone has killed a chamber of argonessen member (velah from von6) its not like any player character doesnt have something to fear from the chamber.


in forgotten realms, dragonborn (of bahamut, the 3.5 kind) are there as a race, and a force of good.

[Uska]

ok... I've read through the ebberron campaign books, and I dont see any mention of their views on dragonborn. the dragons of Argo are interested in the prophecy, and the chamber are set about actively making it come about by researching the dragonmarks on the humanoid races. however, nowhere is it written that their views are to kill anyone, While they view humanoids as a lesser race, their goals have nothing to do with ridding the world of such things. Not to mention that Dragonborn (atleast in 3.5) serve bahamut as a god-deity, to rid the world of evil minions of tiamut (chromatic dragons) While in ebberron chromatic and metalic dragons dont have a split divide such as that, They still revere dragons, and would have no reason to be killed over their race. as they are written, dragonborn are not half-dragons created from a humanoid and a dragon, They are a ritualistic metamorphosis of a humanoid race into a draconic one by hearing and revering the voice of bahamut.

now, in the players guide it does say "Half-dragons are rare in the world of Eberron. Since the first attempt by the House of Vol to reconcile the warring races of elves and dragons by creating a half-dragon, such intermingling has been viewed as an abomination against all that is noble and pure. Dragons do not breed with nondragons by choice, and they go out of their way to exterminate any half-dragon they encounter", and then goes on to say" half-dragons and draconic creatures (descendants of half-dragons whose blood has been diluted through generations) do exist."

so even while half-dragons would be hunted down, They arent exterminated fully. So even as a half-dragon (made from a dragon and humanoid, which I believe the 4e dragonborn isnt) It is still possible in ebberron setting. And, PC characters in of themselves are considered rare, so even if hundreds of players made one, They would still be considered rare compared to the population of the world setting. And, seeing as how just about everyone has killed a chamber of argonessen member (velah from von6) its not like any player character doesnt have something to fear from the chamber.


in forgotten realms, dragonborn (of bahamut, the 3.5 kind) are there as a race, and a force of good.

Again with the 4e quit using that as it isn't a viable reference we aren't 4e! So don't use it as it isn't acceptable also There isn't a FR starting areas so again unacceptable argument.

[Failedlegend]

Again with the 4e quit using that as it isn't a viable reference we aren't 4e! So don't use it as it isn't acceptable also There isn't a FR starting areas so again unacceptable argument.

A) This is DDO NOT 3.5 it's long cast off those shackles (+W & Epic destinies are directly from 4e, even the way prestige classes are handled are similar to paragon paths)

B) He only made a few mentions of 4e most of his lore is coming from 3rd edition

c) FR is entirely "acceptable" to pull from because Lvl 1 heroes weren't just born their ussually adults so someone could easily cross over at some point before taking their first "class level" same reason Sun ELves should be able to worship Eberron gods and Eberron characters should be able to worship FR gods (and why limiting religions by race shouldn't be done)

[Uska]

A) This is DDO NOT 3.5 it's long cast off those shackles (+W & Epic destinies are directly from 4e, even the way prestige classes are handled are similar to paragon paths)

B) He only made a few mentions of 4e most of his lore is coming from 3rd edition

c) FR is entirely "acceptable" to pull from because Lvl 1 heroes weren't just born their ussually adults so someone could easily cross over at some point before taking their first "class level" same reason Sun ELves should be able to worship Eberron gods and Eberron characters should be able to worship FR gods (and why limiting religions by race shouldn't be done)

Your never going to see my point, its a munchkin race and 4E was a munchkin system and I am glad its dead 5E is better except for a few things.

[Failedlegend]

Your never going to see my point, its a munchkin race and 4E was a munchkin system and I am glad its dead 5E is better except for a few things.

No I won't because you don't have a point, all you have is a weird hate-on for all but the "standard mmo races"

[Uska]

No I won't because you don't have a point, all you have is a weird hate-on for all but the "standard mmo races"

I have hate on for munchkinism and that's what dragonborn are nothing but

[Zachski]

I have hate on for munchkinism and that's what dragonborn are nothing but

There isn't a **** thing that's munchkin about the dragonborn race, or even the dragonborn template.

Not to mention that, by reducing it to its stats and nothing but, you are the munchkin here. Even the template had MASSIVE roleplaying potential.

And we're not talking about a template, we're talking about an actual race.

Also, dragonborn are a RACE. Not a HYBRID. They're as much half-dragons as the freaking KOBOLDS are.

Not to mention, as have been proven in every thread you mention it, dragons don't hunt down half-dragons.

Bhy the way, as far as munchkinning goes, that ship sailed the moment DDO became an MMORPG that rewards stat maximization. That's just the nature of the beast. This is why you should remember two big facts.

This isn't your tabletop game.

Not everyone has to dislike something you dislike.

I would throw money at Turbine if they added Dragonborn as a race. I do mean it. It's the one thing I would be most excited to buy.

Not because of its stats, which is all that matters to a munchkin.

But because Dragonborn are an awesome race that are rich in flavor, history, and roleplaying.

And DDO has a lot of viable reasons to add Dragonborn now that Forgotten Realms are part of the package, and now that Eberron supports them itself. In fact, there's two reasons, so they could even add a Dragonborn Iconic in addition to a Dragonborn Race.

That being said, I still think they should add Kobolds even if they add Dragonborn, because Kobolds are the richest in the roleplaying department. I mean, hello? Dragon worshiping lizard-gnomes? What's not awesome about that? Especially in Eberron where chromatic/metallic's effect on alignment took a hike.

[Failedlegend]

I have hate on for munchkinism and that's what dragonborn are nothing but

You keep saying that but still haven't explained why you think their "munchkins"

Would it help if I said I could care less what their stats bonuses/penalties are make it -2 to all stats for all I care. Hell even call it the "Uska hates us penalty" as long as I get Dragonborn (or half-dragon or Draconians or w/e)...although that would sell less since that really really sucks...just saying I wouldn't really care.

Also please let go of this insistence that DDO = 3.5, it doesn't not anymore it's taken ideas from all editions (Including 4e) and plenty that the devs/community have came up with that have nothing to do with ANY tabletops games.

@Zachski: I agree with most of what you said but frankly I'd rather never see another Iconic if at all possible, just give us normal races please none of the forced level stuff...actually if at all possible make the current Iconics into normal races as well and grant anyone who owned them Vet status 15 and of course still have access to those races)

Also DDO is only really a min/max game if you insist on doing everything on EE, give yourself a little leeway on that and your build/flavour options become much more diverse.

[Zachski]

I hate Iconics, too, I'm just trying to point out that Turbine could definitely make money off of more than just the race itself.

Particularly since Dragonborn are a core race of Forgotten Realms now.

[Violith]

Again with the 4e quit using that as it isn't a viable reference we aren't 4e! So don't use it as it isn't acceptable also There isn't a FR starting areas so again unacceptable argument.

as failedlegend said, I only mentioned 4e because its a core race there, and because people get confused and mix them up and think that excluding one or the other would negate both.

3.5 dragonborn (of bahamut, are in the races of dragon book for 3.5, not really sure if they appeared in any other book,) and 4e dragonborn are both two different things, with different lores as to their creations and such, yet neither are 'half-dragons'. So the argument that I quoted is negated since the chamber of argo would only be interested in exterminating half-dragons, due to them finding it an abomination that dragons and humanoids mated. Dragonborn (in either edition) are not created by the union of a humanoid and dragon, so they wouldnt be on the chambers list. while they might be looked upon with suspicion from their appearance, as the chamber argo are dragons they'd be able to tell the difference between a half-bred dragon and dragonborn.

as for FR not having starting areas... That is still no reason to say dragonborn cant be introduced. We got 3 iconics who were introduced from the FR setting, starting area or not has no coalition with if its an acceptable addition or not , and while I'd like the dragonborn race to not be tied to a class level, if it must be done I would still take it, and pay for it.



3.5 dragonborn are servants/protectors of the dragon-diety bahamut, and their goal is to rid the world of evil caused by tiamat's minions,

Tiamat is in ebberron 3.5 lore as one of the 30 demon overlords. she is the daughter of khyber (and a draconic god of greed and power, she is trapped within the Pit of Five Sorrows beneath Argonnessen, and has her own following called the Talons of Tiamat who like the lords of dust, wish to release her. so given the fact that the first expansion and the lord of dust chain set about introducting the demon overlords and their followers, their presence would make sense even if you ignore the FR world or 4e completely.