Streamlining the Game.

[FranOhmsford]

What I would like to see is Adventure Compendium consolidation such as:

Instead of being 2 lvl 3s, 2 lvl 4s, 2 lvl 5s, 2 lvl 6s and 2 lvl 7s Splinterskull could be changed to 4444/55/6666
Sorrowdusk likewise could become 7777/88/9999
Threnal could be moved to straight Lvl 10s
Delera's Pt 1 could be moved to Lvl 6 to better fit in with the rest of the chain.
Tharashk Arena and The Prisoner could be moved to Lvl 9
STK Pt 3 could be dropped to Lvl 4 {All this would require is a slight reduction in the Trap DCs and removal of Flamestrike from the Hobgob casters!}
The final part of Catacombs could be dropped to lvl 3 to fit in with the rest of the chain and could have it's XP doubled!
Chamber of Rahmat could be pushed up to Lvl 11 {same as the rest of the Sands walkups - I personally think this is slightly more difficult than Kourush anyway!}
Offering of Blood could be pushed to Lvl 12 {same as Chains and Wiz King!}.
Shavarath Flags could be moved to Lvl 20 and given Epic XP!
In the Demon's Den could be moved to Lvl 20 and given Epic XP!

Arachnophobia could be retooled as a Group Quest with N/H/E difficulties and 2/4/6 Favour
An Explosive Situation could be retooled as a Group Quest with N/H/E difficulties and 2/4/6 Favour

Miller's Debt and Home Sweet Sewer could be dropped to Lvl 1 and moved to Korthos Village {Remaining Solo}.

The Captives and Where there's Smoke could be dropped to Lvl 2 so they actually fit in on Elite with the Cerulean Hills Slayer Max Level {4}.

Waterworks Pt 3 and 4 could be dropped to Lvl 3
Depths of Doom and Discord could be dropped to Lvl 4

Sunken Sewer and Missing in Action could be upgraded to Lvl 3 - For Sunken Sewer this could justify making certain optionals none optional!

Swiped Signet could be moved to Lvl 4
Proof, Irestone, Freshen and Rest for the Restless could be moved to Lvl 5
Lair of Summoning and Chamber of Insanity could be moved to Lvl 6
Redwillow's Ruins and The Bounty Hunter could be moved to Lvl 7
The Pit could be moved to Lvl 8
Xorian Cypher and The Haunted Library could be moved to Lvl 9
Hiding in Plain Sight could be dropped to Lvl 9 {so people can actually get into The Restless Isles before they outlevel it!}
Made to Order, Dreams of Insanity, and The Enemy Within could be moved to Lvl 12
Relic of a Sovereign Past could be dropped to Lvl 11
Make Mama a requirement and push Mired to Lvl 14 {guarantee at least one Scale Drop}
Lords of Dust {drop to 15} could swap places with In the Flesh {move to 16}

And Murder By Night does not belong at Lvl 19 when Druid's Deep is Lvl 17! - It makes zero sense for you to ask about Werewolves when the Druid's Deep NPC tells you something's gone wrong at the Hospital when you shouldn't even have run Murder By Night yet!
It may require retooling the mobs CRs etc. but Murder by Night should be dropped to Lvl 17 base!

[FranOhmsford]

The New Adventure Compendium if my changes were made real

Lvl 1
Home Sweet Sewer
The Miller's Debt
Heyton's Rest
The Storehouse's Secret
The Cannith Crystal
The Collaborator
Stopping the Sahaugin
Necromancer's Doom
Sacrifices
Redemption

Lvl 2
Misery's Peak
Arachnophobia
An Explosive Situation
Information is Key
Haverdasher
Bringing the Light
Protect Baudry's Interests
Stop Hazadill's Shipment
Retrieve the Stolen Goods
Smuggler's Warehouse
Kobold's New Ringleader
Stealthy Repo
Recovering the Lost Tome
Garrison's Missing Pack
Durk's Got a Secret
Walk the Butcher's Path
Where There's Smoke
The Captives

Lvl 3
Kobold Assault
The Kobold's Den: Clan Gnashtooth
The Kobold's Den: Rescuing Arlos
Venn's Trail: Clan Tunnelworm
Venn's Trail: Venn's Fate
Missing in Action
The Sunken Sewer
Redfang the Unruled
The Friar's Niece
Return to the Sanctuary
The Old Archives
The Crypt of Gerrard Dryden
Setting the Wards: The Lower Cathedral
Setting the Wards: The Patriarchs' Crypt
Endgame: Marguerite
Endgame: The Archbishop's Fate
The Sacred Helm
The Cloven-Jaw Scourge: Blockade

Lvl 4
The Cloven-Jaw Scourge: Caverns of Shaagh
Halls of Shan to Kor
The Swiped Signet
Stand Your Ground
Dirty Laundry
The Stormreaver Fresco
The Bookbinder Rescue
Repossession
Come Out and Slay
Depths of Despair
Depths of Darkness
Depths of Discord
Depths of Doom
First Strike
The Hobgoblins Captives
Yarkuch's War Plans
Whisperdoom's Spawn

Lvl 5
The Deadly Package: The Stronghold Key
The Deadly Package: Agent of the Darguul
Rest for the Restless
Irestone Inlet
Proof is in the Poison
Freshen the Air
Archer Point
Tomb of the Burning Heart
Tomb of the Crimson Heart
Tomb of the Sanguine Heart
Tomb of the Immortal Heart
A Small Problem
Partycrashers
The Snitch
Under the Big Top
Guard Duty
Ghost of a Chance
Prove Your Worth
The Legend of Two Toed Tobias
The Stones Run Red
Brood of Flame

[FranOhmsford]

Lvl 6
The Troglodyte's Get
Gladewatch Outpost
The Bloody Crypt
Mystery of Delera's Tomb
Valak's Mausoleum
Return to Delera's Tomb
Dead Predators
Mirra's Sleepless Nights
The Lair of Summoning
Ruined Halls
Forgotten Caverns
Chamber of Insanity
Purge the Heretics
Caged Trolls
Doom of the Witch Doctor: The Way to Zulkash
Doom of the Witch Doctor: Zulkash, Herald of Woe
The Last Move: The Way to Yarkuch
The Last Move: Yarkuch's Last Stand

Lvl 7
Gwylan's Stand
Tear of Dhakaan
Taming the Flames
Redwillow's Ruins
The Graverobber
The Missing Party
Free Delera
The Bounty Hunter
The Scoundrel's Run
Old Grey Garl
Bargain of Blood
The Black Loch
Storm the Beaches
The Tide Turns
The Iron Mines: Freeing Achka
The Iron Mines: Justice for Grust
The Grey Moon's Den: The Trollish Scourge
The Grey Moon's Den: Extermination
Devil Assault
The Chronoscope

Lvl 8
The Temple Outpost: Captives of the Cult
The Temple Outpost: The Libram of the Six
The Pit
Stormcleave Outpost
Stromvauld's Mine
Spies in the House
Caverns of Korromar
The Faithful Departed
Tomb of the Shadow Guard
Tomb of the Shadow Lord
Tomb of the Shadow Knight
Tomb of the Shadow King
Thrall of the Necromancer

Lvl 9
The Shadow Crypt
The Church and the Cult
The Haunted Library
The Keeper's Sanctuary
The Path to Madness
The Xorian Cypher
The Last Stand
Claw of Vulkoor
Fathom the Depths
Into the Deep
The Tharashk Arena
The Prisoner
Gateway to Khyber
The Jungle of Khyber
Haywire Foundry
Hiding in Plain Sight
The Giant Lieutenants
The Giants Lair
The Giants' Supplies
The Fane of the Six: Cleansing the Temple
The Fane of the Six: Fall of the Prelate
The Sanctum: Quench the Flames
The Sanctum: Church of the Fury

Lvl 10
In Need of Supplies
The Rescue
Secure the Area
The Library of Threnal
Escort the Expedition
Hold for Reinforcements
The Missing Expedition
Entering the Gate Chamber
The Gate Chamber
The Threnal Arena
Slavers of the Shrieking Mines
Bring Me the Head of Ghola-Fan
Sykros' Jewel
Reclamation
Tempest Spine
The Vault of Night
Plane of Night

[FranOhmsford]

I've added in the 3 Giant Caves in Threnal as Lvl 9s
and The Threnal Arena as a Lvl 10 quest.

House Phiarlan Favour would make sense - 2/4/6 for each of the caves, 15 for the Arena

This could possibly make 400 house P Favour actually doable.

[FranOhmsford]

Lvl 11
A Relic of a Sovereign Past
And the Dead Shall Rise
From Beyond the Grave
Spawn of Whisperdoom
Desert Caravan
The Chamber of Rahmat
The Chamber of Kourush
Purge the Fallen Shrine
Maraud the Mines
Raid the Vulkoorim
Tomb of the Tormented
Tomb of the Blighted
Tomb of the Forbidden
Tomb of the Unhallowed
The Twilight Forge

Lvl 12
The Titan Awakes
The Cursed Crypt
Made to Order
Dreams of Insanity
The Enemy Within
Invaders
Diplomatic Impunity
Frame Work
Eyes of Stone
Offering of Blood
The Chamber of Raiyum
Chains of Flame
Against the Demon Queen
Zawabi's Revenge

Lvl 13
Assault on Summerfield
Blockade Buster
Undermine
Siegebreaker
Feast or Famine
Trial By Fire
Maze of Madness
Foundation of Discord
A Cry for Help

Lvl 14
A Cabal for One
The Crucible
Madstone Crater
Prison of the Planes
Gianthold Tor
The Reaver's Fate
Mired in Kobolds
Desecrated Temple of Vol
Flesh Maker's Laboratory
Ghosts of Perdition
Inferno of the Damned

Lvl 15
Litany of the Dead
Acid Wit
Delirium
Disciples of Shar
Escape Plan
Shadow of a Doubt
Missing
Sinister Storage
Fear Factory
Lords of Dust

[FranOhmsford]

Lvl 16
In the Flesh
Servants of the Overlord
The Spinner of Shadows
Beyond the Rift
Rainbow in the Dark
Ritual Sacrifice
Coalescence Chamber
Running with the Devils
Let Sleeping Dust Lie
Friends in Low Places
A Lesson in Deception
Thrill of the Hunt
Army of Shadow
Through a Mirror Darkly

Lvl 17
The Shroud
Ascension Chamber
Acute Delirium
The Sane Asylum
The Lord of Stone
The Lord of Eyes
Prey on the Hunter
Monastery of the Scorpion
Enter the Kobbie
Stealer of Souls
Murder By Night
Outbreak
Overgrowth
Thorn and Paw
The Druid's Curse

Lvl 18
A Vision of Destruction
Hound of Xoriat
Detour
Rest Stop
Lost in the Swamp
A Stay at the Inn
The End of the Road
The Shipwrecked Spy
Dream Conspiracy
Finding the Path
I Dream of Jeets
The Mindsunder
Eye of the Titan

Lvl 19
Reclaiming Memories
Raiding the Giants' Vault
Mining for Ancient Secrets
The Riddle
Wrath of the Flame
The Weapons Shipment
Schemes of the Enemy
Power Play
Blown to Bits
The Tracker's Trap
Lines of Supply
Breaking the Ranks
A Break in the Ice
What Goes Up

Lvl 20
In the Demon's Den
The Dreaming Dark
Genesis Point
A New Invasion
Bastion of Power
Sins of Attrition
Tower of Despair
Master Artificer
Lord of Blades

[FranOhmsford]

I forgot about Master Artificer - It's probably best for that to be moved to Lvl 20 and given Epic XP too.

[Scrabbler]

Instead of being 2 lvl 3s, 2 lvl 4s, 2 lvl 5s, 2 lvl 6s and 2 lvl 7s Splinterskull could be changed to 4444/55/6666

Yes, when those quest chains came out the XP mechanics were different; you got bonus XP for being below the level; so there wasn't a need for the players to be as careful about matching the quest level precisely. No bravery streaks or any of that...

Nowadays they should change quest series to have a span of only 0 or 1 levels.


Hey, I didn't see Sharn Syndicate in your list... I think those should be moved to about 5 levels higher!

[FranOhmsford]

Yes, when those quest chains came out the XP mechanics were different; you got bonus XP for being below the level; so there wasn't a need for the players to be as careful about matching the quest level precisely. No bravery streaks or any of that...

Nowadays they should change quest series to have a span of only 0 or 1 levels.


Hey, I didn't see Sharn Syndicate in your list... I think those should be moved to about 5 levels higher!

How on Earth did I forget the Bookbinders?

Despite the super high trap damage in Repossession, the insane end fight in Come out and Slay and the pure insanity of Bookbinder Rescue these are low level quests.
Lvl 4 is just about right and I though it was looking a bit sparse.

[FranOhmsford]

As for "span of 0 or 1 level"

What I've tried to do here is provide changes that could be made without changing the quests drastically - In most cases Mob CRs etc. can literally stay the same as now - All that has to be changed is the quest's base level.

Take Proof, Irestone and Freshen for instance - None of these quests would feel amiss at base lvl 5 as they are now - There's no need to change a thing other than the base level.
And let's face it...It's no longer 2010 - There's literally no reason for these quests to still be level 4 other than "In my day we had to walk to school uphill in t' snow and t' rain"

There's so many Low level quests that even on a 2nd life character I completely ignore Carnival Heroic, never do the same quest twice and still hard cap pre lvl 8!


Even so: There's other quests that are simply a level above where they need to be and we can replace one of the three quests above quite easily by moving Halls of STK down a lvl.
Now this would require slight changes to the mechanics of the quest:
The Trap DCs would need reducing for definite!
And
The Hobgob casters should probably have Flamestrike taken away from them - It'll serve them right for spamming it!

But again these should be simple enough changes for the Devs to make.
They've even proved that they can do this sort of thing by moving Cabal for One up to Lvl 14 when they Epicced Gianthold and made it a Flagging quest {You'll notice they didn't drop Crucible down to lvl 13 to replace it thank goodness!}.


The fact that Sunken Sewer and MIA are hidden down by the Rusty Nail in the Marketplace while being Lvl 2 quests has always struck me as strange BUT I can't see them being moved to the Harbour as they're literally where they're supposed to be - right next to the Steam Tunnels.

And there's no way in their current condition they'd survive an upgrade to base lvl 3.
HOWEVER:
Sunken Sewer has a whole half of the Dungeon that is completely optional! By making this none optional the Devs could easily make this quest base Lvl 3 without changing a thing! {the gate to that side of the dungeon may need another way to open it so newbies don't require open locks or knock to run it {Add a Str option to open it maybe.}.
Oh and the Door at the end of that side should probably be sealed shut so people don't just start avoiding the other half of the dungeon instead.

As for MIA - Upgrade the Secret Door DCs and you're basically done - A Lvl 2 base quest becomes a Lvl 3 base quest - Still a relatively easy Lvl 3 but let's face it...when Friar's Niece is Lvl 3 the competition isn't exactly high!

[Nestroy]

How on Earth did I forget the Bookbinders?

Despite the super high trap damage in Repossession, the insane end fight in Come out and Slay and the pure insanity of Bookbinder Rescue these are low level quests.
Lvl 4 is just about right and I though it was looking a bit sparse.

While I concur with all you said, Fran, I cannot concur with your evaluation of the Sharn Syndicate quest arc.

1.) The Arc is situated right in between Catacombs and 3BC, and competes with Waterworks, Steam Tunnels, Tangleroot and Carneval. The pack costs 350 TP and brings no loot to go for, only meh XP and only meh favor for the TP costs. Therefore to make the pack attractive, it either needs to give more favor (but we already have plenty of coinlord favor), needs an epicisation (but what for? Epic short quests? Inflated mobster stats?) or more XP (in a level range where we already have plenty of XP available). Therefore the pack is of questionable usefulness on lv. 4.

2.) The Arc is staged with the Searing Height Quests (where we find the first Sharn Ambassadors), Baudrys (where we learn of Hazardil) and The Swiped Signet (Quickfoot gang). The whole arc continues to a certain extend with Hiding in Plain Sight. So between lv. 3 quests and lv. 10 quests we have a glaring gap in that story line.

3.) We now have plenty of low level quest arcs (up to quest levels 7), and we continue with the arcs at lv. 9+ (VON, Red Fens, Sorrowdusk, Restless Isles), but we basically do not have a true lv. 8 arc.

Therefore, I would love to see Sharn Syndicate getting elevated to lv. 8 quests. Give some XP to the quests, give some beef to the mobs, make the traps go slightly up in DC (only a notch, they are already on the upper level for lv. 4 quests) and make us evict those Sharn dummies from Stormreach on lv. 8+ ^^. Not that we need the quests there either, but they would nicely fit into the story arc there.

[FranOhmsford]

While I concur with all you said, Fran, I cannot concur with your evaluation of the Sharn Syndicate quest arc.

1.) The Arc is situated right in between Catacombs and 3BC, and competes with Waterworks, Steam Tunnels, Tangleroot and Carneval. The pack costs 350 TP and brings no loot to go for, only meh XP and only meh favor for the TP costs. Therefore to make the pack attractive, it either needs to give more favor (but we already have plenty of coinlord favor), needs an epicisation (but what for? Epic short quests? Inflated mobster stats?) or more XP (in a level range where we already have plenty of XP available). Therefore the pack is of questionable usefulness on lv. 4.

Of all the above packs it's Carnival that jumps out to me as being viable for upgrading.
The problem then becomes...What to do with The Snitch!
Because said quest is already an order of magnitude easier than the rest of the Chain and it would require a HUGE Upgrade to fit in at a higher level.

A Small problem, Partycrashers and possibly Big Top could all be moved to Lvl 7 with no issues {Heck you wouldn't have to change a thing in Small Problem Elite!}.

However: The Snitch at Lvl 7 would be like Lords of Dust if it was Lvl 18! - It's already weak for the level it's at - Upgrading it would require a lot of work.

Unfortunately Pt 1-3 of Sharn Syndicate would require almost complete re-tooling to fit in at Lvl 8, Pt 4 & 5 are basically trap quests anyway and trap DCs can easily be changed {the dmg in Repossession can stay as it is though!},
And Come Out and Slay could easily be moved up to Lvl 5 as is BUT Lvl 8? That would require every mob in the quest to be retooled!

2.) The Arc is staged with the Searing Height Quests (where we find the first Sharn Ambassadors), Baudrys (where we learn of Hazardil) and The Swiped Signet (Quickfoot gang). The whole arc continues to a certain extend with Hiding in Plain Sight. So between lv. 3 quests and lv. 10 quests we have a glaring gap in that story line.

I think you mean Cerulean Hills not Searing Heights!

The Swiped Signet actually has nothing to do with The Sharn Syndicate - These are two different gangs.
Yes there's a Quickfoot emissary in Come Out and Slow but there's also a Kobold {Why can't he be made into a Hireling Devs?} and a Bugbear in there!
Baudry's Bugbears and assorted Humanoids are also not really part of any Sharn Arc - If anything Sharn is tacked on to the Baudry Arc!

3.) We now have plenty of low level quest arcs (up to quest levels 7), and we continue with the arcs at lv. 9+ (VON, Red Fens, Sorrowdusk, Restless Isles), but we basically do not have a true lv. 8 arc.

Sorrowdusk is currently 6-10 base and with my changes would be 7-9.
Delera's is 5-8 {6-8 if I had my way}.
Necro 2 is 8-9
Threnal is all over the place but min quest lvl is 8 and max is 10 {I'll give you Threnal though as I'd like to move the whole chain to Lvl 10!}.
Necro I and Carnival are Lvl 5 {actually Bloody Crypt is Lvl 6}.
3 Barrel actually has 2 Lvl 7 quests in it!
And there's a whole slew of f2p quests at Lvls 6-8!

I don't think we're exactly missing quests at Lvls 6-9!

Therefore, I would love to see Sharn Syndicate getting elevated to lv. 8 quests. Give some XP to the quests, give some beef to the mobs, make the traps go slightly up in DC (only a notch, they are already on the upper level for lv. 4 quests) and make us evict those Sharn dummies from Stormreach on lv. 8+ ^^. Not that we need the quests there either, but they would nicely fit into the story arc there.

The thing is you've already proved that it fits in perfectly well at Lvl 4!

Taking your Arc we've got:

{Using Elite Levels}

Info is Key {4} - This uses a large portion of the same map as HiPS.
Baudry Chain {4}
Stealthy Repo, Smuggler's Warehouse, Garrison's Missing Pack, Durk's Got a Secret, Walk the Butcher's Path {4}
Cerulean Hills Slayer 1-4
Where There's Smoke and the Captives {5 - 4 if I had my way}
Kobold Assault {5}
The Swiped Signet {5 - 6 if I had my way}
Waterworks {5-6}
Sunken Sewer, MIA & Shan to Kor {4-7 currently}
Sharn Syndicate & Proof is in the Poison {6}

Only the last part of STK is higher level and only 5 {6 if it was up to me} quests out of the above are the same level or higher than Sharn!

We can take the Arc further by adding in:

Archer Pt {7}
Gladewatch Outpost {8}
The Bounty Hunter {8}
Hiding in Plain Sight, Ghola Fan and Slavers of the Shrieking Mines + Restless Isles Slayer {12}
Mired in Kobolds & Feast or Famine {15}
Cabal for One, Crucible & Gianthold Tor {16}
The Missing and Fear Factory {17}
Enter the Kobold {19}

[dunklezhan]

L13-15 and L18 are still clearly lacking in content even with these changes. Which is not a criticism of the suggested tweaks, just an observation that there's still not enough content there so can we PLEASE have less epic, more heroic over the next few updates?

Yes yes, anathema, Epic is all that matters blah blah blah.

I really dislike the epic levels. Its not the quests themselves so much (Wheloon excepted - the overall storyline is super epic, the quest experience on the other hand is... mundane in the extreme apart from the end fights. Abandoned starving prisoners and bog standard lizardfolk? Ya-a-a-wwww- ... hmm? Oh. Sorry. I was so bored I forgot to finish yawning.) its that the mobs take half an hour to beat down and nothing that you learned to use and love in heroics works anymore due to immunities, super high saves and if you already have your EDs Levels 21-24 are just a pointless, reward-less grind, and... oh its just too tedious to go into. Except for explorer areas. Epic explorer areas are fantastic.

I just much prefer the faster, snappier pace of heroic levels.

[FranOhmsford]

L13-15 and L18 are still clearly lacking in content even with these changes. Which is not a criticism of the suggested tweaks, just an observation that there's still not enough content there so can we PLEASE have less epic, more heroic over the next few updates?

I haven't made any changes to Lvl 18 but I do feel there's enough there as is.

The thing is that a 1st Life hits 20 before he/she has finished Vale/Spinner - They probably haven't even run any Lvl 17 stuff {OK maybe they've run a Shroud for 0 xp!}.

A 2nd Life just may need to run a couple of Sane Asylums or flag for Dreaming Dark to cap after running through IQ1.

But frankly I think we have FAR TOO MUCH lvl 17-19 content that NEVER GETS RUN!

19 especially is overloaded atm as once you hit 20 you're looking to run Epics anyway! {Perhaps we could drop Eye of the Titan to Lvl 18}

13's always been weak on quests and losing Cabal didn't help - losing Mired also won't help so yes I feel a new pack aimed at Lvl 13 would be a good idea.

14-15? Uh GIANTHOLD!!!
Uh ORCHARD!!!
No - We're NOT missing quests at these levels!
Most of my characters ignore The Madness Chain and Shar Chain altogether!

[FranOhmsford]

Downgraded Eye of the Titan to Lvl 18 as I feel we have too many Lvl 19s and not enough 18s. No in-quest changes would need to be made - Keep the quest as is Just change it's base Level.