Cleave , Supreme Cleave and TWF

[eulogy098]

It's been said before and deserves being said again-

Cleave (and supreme cleave) should strike with both weapons when a player is Two-Weapon-Fighting. The odds of the off-hand weapon striking should be equal to the investment of Two-Weapon-Fighting feats. Thus if Greater Two-Weapon-Fighting feat is taken, Cleave attacks should have an 80% chance to strike with the offhand as well as the main hand.

If this is too difficult or time consuming to program for the developers, simply make it 100% chance offhand on cleave. Just get it done and be finished with it already. You developer fellas' have already accepted that Cleave was broken (took you long enough!) last patch by increasing the swing speed... lets finish the job and make it appropriate for TWF players.


If you agree with this suggestion, don't let this thread disappear like all the prior similar suggestions regarding cleave. Player desired game changes that slip onto the backburner go further ignored. This is a (seemingly) simple change that aught to be dealt with soon (rather then the typical turbine 2+years of waiting).

[Druckenmeister]

I dont know what should be, but I was really amazed of this.
I have a barbarian with eSoS and another TWF barbarian with two lightning strike khopeshes. TWF barb in fact has at least 15-20% less DPS than eSoS one, and it is only because of its weapon.
Next thing is Supreme Cleave - great barbarian enhancement. Im using it often against packs of mobs, but I have noticed my TWF barbarian has incredible low DPS on cleaves. The reason is: there is no offhand proc on cleaves. But twohanders has glancing blows on cleaves and much more damage than only one khopesh.
Im just interesting what is wrong? Glancing blows availability on cleaves for twohanders OR lack offhand proc on cleaves for 2 onehanders? Or something else?
Thank you.

[licho]

Bump and signed.

IMO Cleave and similar should work with both hands, there is no point to gimp it in that way.
Making it work will improve some builds to be more fun, like 2wf barbs.

[Such755]

I dont know what should be, but I was really amazed of this.
I have a barbarian with eSoS and another TWF barbarian with two lightning strike khopeshes. TWF barb in fact has at least 15-20% less DPS than eSoS one, and it is only because of its weapon.
Next thing is Supreme Cleave - great barbarian enhancement. Im using it often against packs of mobs, but I have noticed my TWF barbarian has incredible low DPS on cleaves. The reason is: there is no offhand proc on cleaves. But twohanders has glancing blows on cleaves and much more damage than only one khopesh.
Im just interesting what is wrong? Glancing blows availability on cleaves for twohanders OR lack offhand proc on cleaves for 2 onehanders? Or something else?
Thank you.

I do belive that it has been proven that eSoS is better than any other TWF (Not counting any alchemitcal), but I could be wrong here.
Back to the point; Supreme cleave and cleave are used not only against big mobs, but also on a single target mob when you want faster swings (swing-Swing-Cleave-repeat).
Back to the REAL point: /signed.
There is no reson why offhands attack shouldn't occur when cleaving.

[Druckenmeister]

Supreme cleave and cleave are used not only against big mobs, but also on a single target mob when you want faster swings (swing-Swing-Cleave-repeat).

Yeah, this is why Im not using autocleave against 1 mob with my TWF barbarian.

[AMDarkwolf]

IDK, it don't make sense for it to work with dual weapons. Maybe a chance(1/2 the chance of an offhand proc?) but full. I mean, your basically CHOPPING though multiple mobs/targets, not just 'doing a flashy spin', your grabbing your weapon and with all your strength are swinging it in a great arc.

IMO it just don't fit 'chopping' when using 2 weapons.


I hate to be the devil's advocate here, but:


/not signed

[Druckenmeister]

IDK, it don't make sense for it to work with dual weapons. Maybe a chance(1/2 the chance of an offhand proc?) but full. I mean, your basically CHOPPING though multiple mobs/targets, not just 'doing a flashy spin', your grabbing your weapon and with all your strength are swinging it in a great arc.

IMO it just don't fit 'chopping' when using 2 weapons.


I hate to be the devil's advocate here, but:


/not signed

Supreme Cleave animation looks like a full 360 degree spin with 2 opposite khopeshes. So why only one of them makes attack?

[Ravoc-DDO]

Never had first hand experience with it, but does whirlwind proc offhand attacks?

[Darkrok]

Never had first hand experience with it, but does whirlwind proc offhand attacks?

Your thinking is the same as mine here. I don't think Cleaves should have an offhand attack but Whirlwind should.

[Angelus_dead]

There are multiple design problems with Cleave (which includes Great, Supreme, and Whirlwind).

The lack of offhand attack procs is the most simple and blatant one, but another problem is the lack of benefit from effects that raise attack rate. Basically if someone has a +15% boost to melee speed, he should also get +15% more hits during a Cleave. That can be achieved by treating the speed boost like an additional Doubtstrike (and TWF) during the Cleave action.

[Druckenmeister]

There are multiple design problems with Cleave (which includes Great, Supreme, and Whirlwind).

The lack of offhand attack procs is the most simple and blatant one, but another problem is the lack of benefit from effects that raise attack rate. Basically if someone has a +15% boost to melee speed, he should also get +15% more hits during a Cleave. That can be achieved by treating the speed boost like an additional Doubtstrike (and TWF) during the Cleave action.

Yeah, but exactly no offhand proc on cleaves makes TWF half-gimped. And it is really noticeable.

[Feithlin]

/signed.

My barb is TWF, and I end up using a 2-hander as often as 2 weapons because supreme cleave is ... well ... supreme.

[dotHackSign]

/signed

twf can use the help

[Tsuarok]

/signed

[Synthetic]

/not signed

TWF is the single target dps option. Supreme cleave may need a change to avoid the damage increase for single targets but making twf better at both is equally bad.

[Druckenmeister]

TWF is the single target dps option.

If so, why single-target-THF is better then any TWF? In theory and in practice.
The truth is: more strength - better THF. And barbs has great strength.
With new Vorpal, Smiting and Disruption effects there is no more place for TWF in DDO.

Supreme cleave may need a change to avoid the damage increase for single targets but making twf better at both is equally bad.

THF is better even without autocleave exploit, if you talking about it.
Should autocleave be fixed? May be, as all that speed and doublestrike troubles on cleaves.
Anyway I dont understand why having 2 weapons you makes cleave with only one.

[AMDarkwolf]

oh gee, big surprise here, this thread has turned into a 'we are the best at single target DPS, so we should ALSO be the best at multi target DPS TOO' argument.

It was stated a few times above why cleaves should NOT get offhand procs. That is enough. TWF already gets more of everything than THF does(yes the 'new' smiting/disrupt/banish effects TOO, u get DOUBLE the chances to get that smexy extra damage, quit wanting everything)

[Druckenmeister]

oh gee, big surprise here, this thread has turned into a 'we are the best at single target DPS, so we should ALSO be the best at multi target DPS TOO' argument.

TWF never was "best at single target DPS" nor "best at multi target DPS TOO"
Once it has a reason to use some vorpal/smiting/banishing/disruption TWF. Now there is no. May be for melee-rogues only.

Im not begging for more TWF DPS. Really saying I dont care, I have top equipped THF barb with eSoS and some other good beaters. Im just talking about my experience of trying to reach good TWF DPS. This try fails. TWF Supreme Cleave is one of reasons.

DDO Wiki says: an off-hand attack have a chance to proc on any main hand attack.
Isnt Cleave that kind of main hand attack? Is it bug or it works as intended?

Of course Im not asking you, AMdarkWolf. ) It seems you dont know subject.

[AMDarkwolf]

first quit trying to flame or troll me. 2nd twf does, simply by being twf. Vorpals still add an extra 100 dmg, with THF u got one(1) weapon and therefore one(1) chance for it to proc vs a twf have two (2)swings, and based on their twf skills/feats, have more chances for that extra vorpal damage. I assume you have trouble understanding how 1 is smaller than 1.5, 1.6, etc, but I assure you sir, it is.

This only considers effects such as vorpa, add in more such as bursts(EACH offhand gets that extra) more str(EACH hit ads more) etc, and it far, far, FAR exceeds what one single weapon can do, even WITH THF getting 1.5x dmg and +10 with PA on.

Just by simple math, with 2 weapons you have twice the burst effects, twice the 'procs', twice the swings, its just basic.

And again as above a cleave is a single great swing using all your might. please just to test it, go take 2 axes and with all your might swing both at a tree. Now try again with only one axe(Even with a second in your other hand) you will find how basic physics work and why cleave should NOT work with offhand proc.

[ericrd]

using esos as a standard for THF is like using lamborghini as a standard for cars

my TWF kensai fighter does more damage to single targets than my non esos wielding THF barb

the cleaving barb kills groups faster

why should TWF be best at both?


/notsigned