Revisiting the Elven Ranger for New Players

[unbongwah]

You have listed some ideas for the classic archer AA/DS and a Tempest with some archery T/DS, what is your idea for an archery first Tempest 2nd elven ranger? I am envisioning T5 DWS 36-40 pts, elf (w/DMs) 12+ APs, a few in AA for arrows at least and an elemental imbue and how much in Tempest?

That's mostly an Enhancement respec: e.g., 42 APs DWS (all T5s + capstone), 12 APs elf (Gtr Shadow DM), 26 APs Tempest (Deflect Arrows + Growing Storm + Storm Tempest) for something melee focused. The problem IMHO is AA feels like a very backloaded PrE to me: you have to invest significantly into Elemental Dmg to improve imbues; and it costs 31 APs to pick up Shadow Arrows (+1 crit multiplier and +5% Doubleshot). And since they didn't add Ranged Alacrity (yet) to AA, it feels like you need to invest in as much dmg per hit as you can if you want to be a "real" archer. If you're also spending 41-42 APs into DWS for capstone & T5s, that doesn't leave much left over for elf or Tempest, unfortunately.

Oh and would the classic long sword even be worth considering?

Not IMHO, unless you're planning to use Fellblades. Bear in mind that if you go DEX-based, your only option for DEX to longsword dmg is Aerenal Grace, which costs at least 18 APs; and you have no option for DEX to-hit on this build.

I wanted to play as a pure ranged archer, with some rogue for traps and maybe sneak attack bonuses.

In your case, I don't have any specific advice to offer. Rgr 16 / rog 3 locks you out of lvl 18 core enhancements; and drow has no access to elf racial AA PrE.

[kendo]

as going with the 41/39 split for enhancements doesn't leave any room for racial enhancements, do you see human as a good alternative to elf? you won't get quite as high of a DEX score but the extra feat would let you add in mobility or drop dodge and get to cleave for a little more melee damage. the extra skill points would let you either drop INT down just a little and keep the same skill progression or allow you to flesh out another skill or two.

my first inclination was to go elf, though mainly for future flexibility. if you were to decide to go a little more melee focused and that freed up some enhancement points that could go to racial, I have always liked the DM line for elfs.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Personally I don't see the point of any 41/39 AP build unless you are just min/maxing. If one is going to play a boring split like that one might as well just play a FB capstone/t5 ravager Barbarian who is going to be stronger than any ranger anyway. I don't think you can go 41/39 and say "i'm elf rangering!" because you really aren't. To be an Elf ranger you actually need to have Elven abilities.

[unbongwah]

as going with the 41/39 split for enhancements doesn't leave any room for racial enhancements, do you see human as a good alternative to elf?

If you want a human rgr, see the Cuisinart thread.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Well, playing around with the trees, this is the best AP splits I could come up with for a 20 Ranger Elf.

Elf Tree 23 APs

Elven Accuracy II
Elven Dexterity II
Ph DM III
Aerenal Wpn Training IV
Lesser and Greater DM of shadow
Aerenal Grace
Skill

Skill has huge benefits, it's worth 5 or 6 APs for the cost of 1. This allows the use of longswords with Dex to Dmg also thru Aerenal Grace. While it doesn't offer a to hit option, it will be easy enough to get into the 30s with STR and add an accuracy item plus the bonus to hit from Elf and Aerenal wpn training hitting shouldn't be a problem.

DWS - 41 pts

All DWS Cores (PBS range now +38 meters with DWS and Elven cores)

5 APs between Stealthy, Tendon Cut and Increased Empathy. Not sure if the extra pos healing power, the extra SA die or a +W melee click is best here.
Survivalist III
Power Boost III
Aimed Shot
Dex II
Killer III
Leg Shot
Merciful Shot
Strikes like Lightning
Head Shot
Im Archer Focus
Heavy Draw

AA 6 pts

AA and Morphic Arrows cores
Conjure Arrows
Flaming Arrow

Tempest 10 pts

Whirling Steel and Tempest cores
Imp Reaction III
Im Defense I
Haste Boost III
Imp Dodge I

I would like to get over 20 pts in Tempest but there is just no way. I consider conjure arrows a must and if I am in the AA tree I might as well get morphic arrows for DR purposes and one elemental imbue.

[unbongwah]

All DWS Cores (PBS range now +38 meters with DWS and Elven cores)

Horizon Shot: "You are always considered to be in Point Blank Shot and Ranged Sneak Attack range." This renders Elven Accuracy's PBS range increase superfluous.

If you want to go that route, consider 41 APs DWS (capstone), 21 APs Tempest (+1 crit multiplier), 12 APs elf (Gtr Shadow DM), 6 APs AA (Morphic). I'm pretty sure the extra pts in Tempest does more for your melee DPS than the extra pts in elf tree. I don't really see the point of getting DEX to dmg with longswords, since you already get it free to scimitars from Tempest; while Imp Weap Finesse provides DEX to longbows so you don't need Grace anymore. Likewise, +3% Dodge / Doublestrike / Doubleshot from Skill are nice, I'm just not convinced they're worth ditching pts in Tempest or AA to get. Particularly if you're running in LD w/Morphic Arrows + Pulverizer for +1 crit range to bows. EDIT: and I already feel bad about not having at least Growing Storm...

The good news is I don't really think there's a "bad" way to build a pure rgr these days; it's all about your personal priorities in terms of melee, ranged, and survivability.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Horizon Shot: "You are always considered to be in Point Blank Shot and Ranged Sneak Attack range." This renders Elven Accuracy's PBS range increase superfluous.

If you want to go that route, consider 41 APs DWS (capstone), 21 APs Tempest (+1 crit multiplier), 12 APs elf (Gtr Shadow DM), 6 APs AA (Morphic). I'm pretty sure the extra pts in Tempest does more for your melee DPS than the extra pts in elf tree. I don't really see the point of getting DEX to dmg with longswords, since you already get it free to scimitars from Tempest; while Imp Weap Finesse provides DEX to longbows so you don't need Grace anymore. Likewise, +3% Dodge / Doublestrike / Doubleshot from Skill are nice, I'm just not convinced they're worth ditching pts in Tempest or AA to get. Particularly if you're running in LD w/Morphic Arrows + Pulverizer for +1 crit range to bows. EDIT: and I already feel bad about not having at least Growing Storm...

The good news is I don't really think there's a "bad" way to build a pure rgr these days; it's all about your personal priorities in terms of melee, ranged, and survivability.

Ah yes, good point on Horizon shot. Based on this I would drop a Dex and Elven Accuracy taking 20 APs in Elf and going 13 in Tempest. Or I could take those 3 pts and put them in Inferno Shot III. This looks like a good fit with manyshot?

From the looks of it most of the Tempest DPS increases comes in t4 and t5. Basically it is Deflect Arrows and +1 Crit multiplier, taking scimitars in this case to x3, storm dancer and bleed them out vs 3% dodge/DS/DS, and +4 to hit/dmg. As you say, some interesting choices and lots of ways to build a ranger now. Good options.

[kendo]

If you want a human rgr, see the Cuisinart thread.

why would I want to look at the cuisinart build? that dips heavy into tempest and I am looking at a pure ranged ranger, most likely with a 41/39 AA/DWS split. with nothing left over for racial enhancements, what's the benefit of elf over human? they can start with a higher dex score but human would have the extra feat and skill points.

is the extra point or two in DEX worth that much that elf is the only logical choice for a pure 20 ranged focused build?

[Marshal_Lannes]

So I looked thru all the named light armors in the game. None of them really jump out as THE best to have. The green dragonscale looks awesome but as armor it is kinda is blah and seems really hard to get. I guess the Thunderholm shadow armor? All the good effects seem to be on medium or heavy armor, the 2d6 SA is decent and seems the way to go for lack of better options unless I am missing something. I would probably want to glammer the armor though because the shadow armor doesn't feel very elf rangerish.

[unbongwah]

with nothing left over for racial enhancements, what's the benefit of elf over human?

If you've already decided on a 41/39 AP split, then it boils down to the inherent racial bonuses: i.e., +2 DEX vs extra feat & skill pts. Sounds like you've already decided human is better. EDIT: although another possibility is 42 APs DWS (T5s + capstone), 31 APs AA (Shadow Arrows), 3 APs human (Dmg Boost + heal amp), with 4 APs left over to tweak things.

So I looked thru all the named light armors in the game. None of them really jump out as THE best to have. The green dragonscale looks awesome but as armor it is kinda is blah and seems really hard to get.

In terms of DPS, my preferred progression would be:

• giantcraft leather
• black dragonhide or Assassin Initiate's
• Hide of the Goristro w/Tendon Slice 10% or Restored Giantcraft
• flawless black dragonhide w/EE black dragon helm or ToEE lt armor w/ToEE weapon for set bonus

As you've noticed, Shadow Killer is not a great DPS option; if you use shadow dragonhide, it would be for the survivability benefits, not the DPS boost.

For a Tempest, my guess is ToEE lt armor + ToEE fire weapon + T3 TF weapon w/Dragon's Edge is the best overall endgame option, since that gets you both +20 Melee Power ToEE set bonus and 35% Armor Piercing. at least until eVale comes along and we all redo our gear sets again.

I don't know what's the best option for an archer, since you can't have both ToEE and TF weapons equipped, obviously.

[unbongwah]

Crunching some Doubleshot numbers using the 41 AA / 39 DWS split:

Doubleshot
20% Strikes Like Lightning (T5 DWS)
20% Master of Imbument (AA capstone)
10% Doubleshot ED feat
+5% Shadow Arrows imbue
+9% Doubleshot EPL x3
+8% enhancement (eQuiver of Alacrity or eDynamistic Quiver)
+2% ship buff (Seasoned Archer)
74% Doubleshot (passive)
20% max Killer
94% Doubleshot (buffed)

Manyshot adds 120% Doubleshot, so that's 214% Doubleshot. If you group with a WC w/Reckless Chant, it becomes 220%. [I still say Turbine should replace AA Attack Boost with Doubleshot Boost; that would goose it to 250% DS.]

[kendo]

If you've already decided on a 41/39 AP split, then it boils down to the inherent racial bonuses: i.e., +2 DEX vs extra feat & skill pts. Sounds like you've already decided human is better. EDIT: although another possibility is 42 APs DWS (T5s + capstone), 31 APs AA (Shadow Arrows), 3 APs human (Dmg Boost + heal amp), with 4 APs left over to tweak things.

actually, being a long time DnD player, I was leaning towards elf. as Tevye would say -- Tradition ! the only race I saw being even close was human, as you have mentioned several times how tight feats and enhancements are with a pure ranger build looking to maximize ranged damage, was curious how the extra feat and skills would match up against a bit more dex.

thanks for taking the time to answer all the questions, it is very helpful

[Grailhawk]

Crunching some Doubleshot numbers using the 41 AA / 39 DWS split:

Doubleshot
20% Strikes Like Lightning (T5 DWS)
20% Master of Imbument (AA capstone)
10% Doubleshot ED feat
+5% Shadow Arrows imbue
+9% Doubleshot EPL x3
+8% enhancement (eQuiver of Alacrity or eDynamistic Quiver)
+2% ship buff (Seasoned Archer)
74% Doubleshot (passive)
20% max Killer
94% Doubleshot (buffed)

Manyshot adds 120% Doubleshot, so that's 214% Doubleshot. If you group with a WC w/Reckless Chant, it becomes 220%. [I still say Turbine should replace AA Attack Boost with Doubleshot Boost; that would goose it to 250% DS.]

Divine Crusader has some interesting options for Doubleshot.

Celestial Champion ins +10% double shot instead of +8% from gear and Zeal of the Righteous is +~50% every other manyshot.

Not saying its better then Fury, or Dreadnought but just point out its got a lot of doubleshot not found in other Destinies.

[ForwardWu]

Even on a pure archer, I found that spending all 41 AP in AA true to get AA capstone seems a bit overkill. When you get most of the doubleshot bonus (~50-70%), I think the benefits from DWS capstone outdone the extra 20% doubleshot. Not aiming at AA capstone also gives the benefit of freeing quite a lot of AP to play around.

[unbongwah]

My goal would be to hit at least 200% Doubleshot during Manyshot: a guaranteed 3 arrows per shot is a big deal, IMO, particularly when combined with special atks like Slayer Arrow or Sniper Shot. Since MS provides +120% DS, that means you want at least 80% DS from other sources. Unfortunately, I think the only way to do that without both the AA capstone and Strikes like Lightning is to group with a bard who has Reckless Chant (EDIT: or run in DC and use Zeal of the Righteous).

20% Strikes like Lightning OR Master of Imbument
10% Doubleshot ED feat
+5% Shadow Arrows imbue
+9% Doubleshot EPL x3
+8% enhancement (eQuiver of Alacrity or eDynamistic Quiver)
+6% Reckless Chant
+2% ship buff (Seasoned Archer)
60% Doubleshot (passive)
20% Killer (max stacks)
80% Doubleshot (buffed)

Again, this would be a lot easier if Turbine would just follow my advice and add Doubleshot action boost to AA. EDIT: the Doubleshot bonuses are what makes Div Crusader more appealing for an AA than it used to be, IMHO, particularly if you don't have those EPLs or the right quiver.

[Hasacz]

Hey, what feats would u add to this build lvl 29 and 30? I guess Scion of the Feywild is obvious legendary feat choice but what about lvl 29 epic feat?

[unbongwah]

Legendary feats: Scion of Arborea is the obvious choice for the +20 Melee/Ranged Power. Although if you focus on DWS SAs and max out Hide, it sounds like Ethereal Plane is a reasonable alternative; perma-Blur and Invis Guard are nice survivability perks. Feywild's Sonic + Enchant bonuses make it feel like it's aimed at bards. Limbo if you think predictability is for cowards.

As for lvl 29 feats: Deific Warding or Wind thru the Trees if you want to boost your defenses; Dire Charge for the AoE stun (followed by Dance of Death) if you think you can get your DCs high enough; Chaos or Order for the extra DPS; Dreamscape if you're RPing Chaotic Neutral.

The final lvl 30 feat can be whatever you like to fill in any gaps.

[RS-Makk]

Dire Charge for the AoE stun (followed by Dance of Death) if you think you can get your DCs high enough;

from reading through that thread.. (sorting out the drama).. looks like a mid (maybe even low?) 90's DC is what's needed?

[unbongwah]

Ever since the U28.2 revamp of Manyshot, there's been a lot of drama over the changes and whether it's a nerf or a buff. Not that I expect this to change people's minds, but I'll show how it's a nerf and a buff...depending on what level you are.

This table is a simplified view of the DPS bonus from Manyshot pre- and post-U28. The Doubleshot column lists both the +120% DS from MS as well as rgr-based DS bonuses you can have at that level, using the 41 AA / 39 DWS AP configuration:

• Level 6: max Killer (+20% DS)
• Level 12: Strikes like Lightning (+20% DS)
• Level 18: Shadow Arrows (+5% DS)
• Level 20: AA capstone (+20% DS)
• Level 28: Doubleshot ED feat (+10% DS)

Post-U28
Pre-U28


BAB
Doubleshot
Ranged Power
DPS bonus
Manyshot DPS
Variance

6
140%
24
174%
100%
73.6%

7
140%
28
179%
100%
79.2%

8
140%
32
185%
100%
84.8%

9
140%
36
190%
100%
90.4%

10
140%
40
196%
100%
96.0%

11
140%
44
202%
200%
1.6%

12
160%
48
237%
200%
36.8%

13
160%
52
243%
200%
43.2%

14
160%
56
250%
200%
49.6%

15
160%
60
256%
200%
56.0%

16
160%
64
262%
300%
-37.6%


17
160%
68
269%
300%
-31.2%

18
165%
72
284%
300%
-16.2%

19
165%
76
290%
300%
-9.6%

20
185%
80
333%
300%
33.0%

21
185%
84
340%
300%
40.4%

22
185%
88
348%
300%
47.8%

23
185%
92
355%
300%
55.2%

24
185%
96
363%
300%
62.6%

25
185%
100
370%
300%
70.0%

26
185%
104
377%
300%
77.4%

27
185%
108
385%
300%
84.8%

28
195%
112
413%
300%
113.4%

29
195%
116
421%
300%
121.2%

30
195%
120
429%
300%
129.0%

So you can see that new Manyshot is actually more powerful than old Manyshot except in the BAB 16-19 range; that's when the extra arrow from old MS was most useful, before you have the extra Doubleshot bonuses in epic levels to make up the difference.

Again, this is a simple example, which doesn't factor in your baseline Ranged Power; that would make the epic calcs more complicated. I'm also not counting the extra Doubleshot from Primal EPLs (+9% max), gear (+8% max), ship buff (+2%), or Reckless Chant (+6%).

Now, I think the aspect of new MS which most annoys people - and I admit this vexes me a bit too - is that you don't the guaranteed arrows you do with old MS. After all, there's no such thing as "2.7 arrows;" you either fire 2 or you fire 3. Probabilities are all well & good, but when you've only got a 20-second buff, you want to get as much mileage out of it as you can. Which, again, is why I stressed the importance of hitting a base Doubleshot of at least 80%, so your MS DS bonus is 200%+, guaranteeing at least 2 extra arrows per shot.

[unbongwah]

I've updated my Shadow Tempest build. I'll also try to update my AA build...umm...eventually. But in the interim, feel free to check out CThru's and Strimtom's builds. Purely ranged rgrs have become very strong; they've also become pretty cookie-cutter, since you want to spend most of your APs on AA+DWS and it's just a question of which T5+cap to take.