The Official Warchanter Lamannia Feedback Thread

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

It appears yet again you have proven that you are not adept at reading...

This is not about CC and DPS.

"This is not about CC and DPS" in a bard thread??? Did I just rea... never mind

Bards are SUPPOSED TO HAVE MORE OPTIONS, they are built from the ground up to be performance artists, multi-tasking artists, folks that can beat the odds, and are immensely customizable. They cant have it ALL. They must choose what to excel in. Even then they STILL CANNOT heal, cast, or hit better or harder than anyone else. However, combined with other party members, the benefits of their presence and chosen abilities must be greater than a full party without them, or there would be no point to even bring a bard to the dance. They can now, in DDO terms, unless you live under a rock and have an aunt named Fred, find a home in ~95% of the DDO PUG scene now because they ARE that damned good.

This isnt good or bad thing, its a great thing for the game and playerbase.

[Takllin]

"This is not about CC and DPS" in a bard thread??? Did I just rea... never mind

Bards are SUPPOSED TO HAVE MORE OPTIONS, they are built from the ground up to be performance artists, multi-tasking artists, folks that can beat the odds, and are immensely customizable. They cant have it ALL. They must choose what to excel in. Even then they STILL CANNOT heal, cast, or hit better or harder than anyone else. However, combined with other party members, the benefits of their presence and chosen abilities most be greater than a full party without them, or there would be no point to even bring a bard to the dance. They can now, in DDO terms, unless you live under a rock and have an aunt named Fred, find a home in ~95% of the DDO PUG scene now because they ARE that damned good.

This isnt good or bad thing, its a great thing for the game and playerbase.

You took that out of context. Read the rest of the conversation before that. We are debating over the Spinning Ice attack, which is CC. Bards have a great amount of DPS now.

Thanks for the Bard lesson, but I didn't need it.

[Takllin]

Hmmm, I didn't think of that, but you are right before Swashbuckler no enhancement used a skill in the DC formula. And while perform is often used to measure bard abilities in PnP that doesn't always translate well for DDO. Okay, so Perform is out. So what else is there?

Bard Levels - Only goes up to 20, not particularly good enough alone to be useful in epics.

Charisma - Not going to be very high on the typical Warchanter build which would usually be Strength based, so to be optimal forces you either to choose the PDK race or go SWF and spend a good deal of points in Swashbuckler or both. This makes me feel very restricted, even forced to build a character a certain way just to use a particular enhancement. If its not in a Racial Enhancement tree, you shouldn't feel compelled to be a certain race to use a class enhancement.

Stunning Blow Tactical DC bonuses - Anyone can build for, and are strength based. But has opened up this whole can of worms of fighter VS bards the tactical showdown.


Honestly, I can't think of a way for the devs to make everyone happy on this issue. I know giving Warchanters an option for charisma to damage would be an improvement for me but it wouldn't fix the whole issue.

What I don't understand, is why is this thing Charisma based, when the first Core is Skaldic Rage, which gives a +4 Rage bonus to STR...it would make perfect sense for this to be a STR based ability.

It is exactly about cc and dps. You all want to keep bards third rate and not give bards a seat at the table. The table in DDO is about dps and DDO has become a soloist game even in a full party optimally all characters play a soloist style. Warchanters need abilities to be competitive and that is why there is a mass stunning ability.

No, it is not. No one is clamoring for Howling North to be taken away, or the T5 chant which increases melee and ranged damage by 6%, and spell crit chance by 6%. Or the 6% doublestrike without the -10% fort now. Were not asking for Frozen Fury to be taken away. We only have issue with Spinning Ice. Please, read, before you keep commenting. This is what, the fourth time I've had to correct you because you have not read posts?

[Silverleafeon]

As long as we're in agreement that the real melee classes are in need of some attention, I'm satisfied. This was really the overarching point as far as I'm concerned. As I've said, I don't want nerfs, I just want fair representation without having to carve out a new bard based build to remain maxed out.

I had to go check on what I can talk about, and what I cannot.

......Update 23 will also feature a series of improvements aimed at making sure heavy armor-wearing adventurers feel powerful and ready to go toe-to-toe with some of DDO’s toughest enemies, updates to improve the Paladin class, and other changes that will give our melee players a boost....

Cheers!
Athena “Vyvyanne” Peters
Franchise Director – Dungeons & Dragons Online

Rest assured, that having played every race and every class, I will press for more melee love.
Rest assured, that Sev has ________ great ideas.

Several of us on the Player's Council have great concerns for Barbarians and Fighters.
Just recently one of them proposed a unique idea that I am still pondering how to reply to.
I have made some myself.

Let it go,
Let it go,
things are coming...
we will get to Barbarian Soon^tm....

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

As long as we're in agreement that the real melee classes are in need of some attention, I'm satisfied. This was really the overarching point as far as I'm concerned. As I've said, I don't want nerfs, I just want fair representation without having to carve out a new bard based build to remain maxed out.

Barbs have needed help for a long time. Fighters are ok, but the THF feats should get a glancing hits spiff to coincide with the "new" level 26-30 DDO. Arcane archers really need a looksee as well.

As for you not wanting nerfs - you can say it till you are blue in the face, and I'm assuming by now you look kind of, smurfish, but the way you have been addressing the bard community in the last few weeks, you indeed raised Cain with the changes which by default insinuated the use of the nerf bat throughout..

Let us bards have our fun... other than DCs, I see nothing that even approaches overpowering. And even those DCs are very limited to a bard's core casting/singing strengths. Its not like we have anywhere near the overall capabilities of a wizard or sorc, or any melee class for that matter. As Silverleafeon teases above, other changes are soon on their way. It really should of been obvious that this is an ongoing process, considering the game is nearing its level 30 ceiling.

[Cetus]

but the way you have been addressing the bard community in the last few weeks, you indeed raised Cain with the changes which by default insinuated the use of the nerf bat throughout..

Well, that's just too bad...

In other words, this doesn't bother me in the slightest. You do realize that I am part of the bard community, right - I have a bard I intend to update.

[Aelonwy]

What I don't understand, is why is this thing Charisma based, when the first Core is Skaldic Rage, which gives a +4 Rage bonus to STR...it would make perfect sense for this to be a STR based ability.

I assume they went with Charisma based because its in a bard tree and bards typically have high charisma.... but you're right, its specifically in the Warchanter tree, a type of bard that might have charisma just high enough to get access to all their spells and thats about it. Looking at it from that perspective you're right, it really ought to be Strength based. Its not as though the bard is using their sparkling personality to bowl the bad guys over, that would only apply is this was an SLA like ability which it isn't.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I have a bard I intend to update.

That's very insightful of you, but you havent been discussing your bard, you are going on how you feel SWF has Roodie-pood your fighter's THF feats. THF is most likely getting spiffed in a future update. Also, classes that currently benefit most from THF feats doesnt need the bonuses SWF gets. The single weapon fighter needed a series of bonuses to catchup to THF and TWF, but that's only going to attract a certain number of classes. Its not meant to be a carbon copy of THF, and if it were, it would be utterly useless. On the other hand, if the THF feats also added the SWF benefits it WOULD be ridiculously OP. Even STILL, THF does what SWF cant. Its for multiple targets, which is an entirely different fighting style and should never be balanced in any shape or form with SWF.

No reason not to care. You have carried on in what like 6 or 7 threads with three faulty videos that show that the devs have DONE A GREAT JOB in spiffing SWF. That's what those videos show, in my eyes.

[Scrabbler]

I assume they went with Charisma based because its in a bard tree and bards typically have high charisma.... but you're right, its specifically in the Warchanter tree, a type of bard that might have charisma just high enough to get access to all their spells and thats about it.

It's following the pattern of Monks and stuff. Even though your hit and damage are with a physical stat (Str / Dex), your special effects use a mental stat (Wis for Monk/Druid, Cha for Bard/Pal). That multiple attribute dependency is to intentionally make the class weaker than if damage and special DC were on the same stat.

Well, that's the reasoning... but it is undercut because Bards now have a way to get Charisma with damage to some weapons (unlike Monks, who can't use Wisdom damage).

As for if Warchanters will have only just enough Charisma to cast level 6 spells: clearly the devs would like that to change, and WC builds to pursue as much Cha as they can.

[Cetus]

That's very insightful of you, but you havent been discussing your bard, you are going on how you feel SWF has Roodie-pood your fighter's THF feats. THF is most likely getting spiffed in a future update. Also, classes that currently benefit most from THF feats doesnt need the bonuses SWF gets. The single weapon fighter needed a series of bonuses to catchup to THF and TWF, but that's only going to attract a certain number of classes. Its not meant to be a carbon copy of THF, and if it were, it would be utterly useless. On the other hand, if the THF feats also added the SWF benefits it WOULD be ridiculously OP. Even STILL, THF does what SWF cant. Its for multiple targets, which is an entirely different fighting style and should never be balanced in any shape or form with SWF.

No reason not to care. You have carried on in what like 6 or 7 threads with three faulty videos that show that the devs have DONE A GREAT JOB in spiffing SWF. That's what those videos show, in my eyes.

1. Your argument contains an uncertainty - whether THF will get buffed remains to be determined. We some decent evidence to think it will, but this is still merely a probability.

2. My videos show EE WGU - one of the most mob dense quests in the game, get destroyed by a single weapon. Keep pushing the empty argument that THF still excels at AoE damage.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

1. Your argument contains an uncertainty - whether THF will get buffed remains to be determined. We some decent evidence to think it will, but this is still merely a probability.

2. My videos show EE WGU - one of the most mob dense quests in the game, get destroyed by a single weapon. Keep pushing the empty argument that THF still excels at AoE damage.

You are not pushing for nerfs here CLEARLY Cetus.. right?

THF was re-shaped around a fighter's glancing blows ability. SWF was built around a swashbuckler. THF feats are used by other classes/builds and so will SWF. They cant build the game around your videos and builds, they need to do what's best for the masses. THF feats are very easy to boost. Spin the wrench less than a quarter turn righty tighty on glancing blows procs/damage, and we have an entirely different fighter class. As much as I'd love to see it, this does not affect changes the devs are making to bard right now. Bards deserve and actually need what they got to get a foothold in a game long biased against thousands of bards.

I'm impressed you took it upon yourself to make your videos. But to anyone who truly understand DDOs mechanics, your videos are at best inconclusive, and do nothing more then sell Turbine did the right thing with SWF.

Your videos show SWF beat your THF by 2.2%. But its skewed, with so many variables not represented. Your gear are not chosen independently, you are moving around like a flea. With a 30% swing speed boost for SWF, it only did 2.2% better, and to top it off your SWF sample mobs #2 had 15% less hp. The videos are just random zeros and ones to me, it does not prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Anyway, in U24 we'll probably see boosts to fighter and paladin damage. As it stands, even GIVING YOU THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, I aint loosing sleep over a 2.2% difference in a greatest case scenario. It's just not that big a deal to most THFs, but its a hell of a great deal to the thousands that will be rolling bards now, and many more who will be incorporating bard levels into their builds going forward.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

All of the chants work like this:

• About every 10 seconds all nearby allies get the buff related to the chants the Warchanter has learned from the enhancement tree.
• This buff lasts for 60 seconds.

Note that none of the chants are activated abilities; they are all passive (including a rework of Ironskin Chant and changing Inspire Recklessness to be Reckless Chant). There's no duration to how often you get the bonuses. In many ways these are somewhat similar to Paladin Aura of Good, but they trigger a bit less often and last much longer once triggered.

I absolutely love this. Great work!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

[/LIST]

Varg ^^^ that is a ridiculously cool addition to warchanter... maybe put it in as a T3 rider on another song buff or a mid level core (Core 12?)

"Warchanters CHANT their bard music and do not necessarilly need instruments"

It's too Brilliant!

This one addition adds flavor and makes Warchanters distinctive in how they "bard" but it also makes their melee DPS better...

Hey now Iron , ALL bards should have the ability to play a Medley... One customizable song = all. However if we DO get that, I could easily back an Acapella thats warchanter unique! It IS brilliant, and would give Warchanters what they need.

In fact, I'd couple this Medley/Acapella idea with a war chanter specific heal aura, for improved inside healing. It makes sense that the warchanter bard gets these in-the-heat-of-battle bard lovages and would really dramatically improve warchanters' value to any good party! It goes right along with the mindset that warchanters #1 role should be to best boost the abilities of his/her party.

Medley on the other hand would cement all bards place in a well rounded party. A Medley/Acapella grants benefits to the entire DDO community, if party leaders say yes to bards wanting into their groups.

[Nascoe]

We don't want Bards to be weak, what we want is balance.

A lot of us have commented previously, and continue to that the Kensai/Monk synergy is ridiculously overpowered and never should have seen the light of day.

Wrong Takllin. Let me correct you there: instead of "a lot of us have commented" actual fact is "Me, Cetus and 1-2 others have commented a lot"

Guys, I fully understand that you would like to lobby for improvements to Fighter and for THF. But if you just get off your high horse and read back what you actually wrote, Cetus and you as support team have been calling to nerf SWF, nerf Swashbuckler and now call to not put in good changes that might help ALL types of bards a bit more than a class one would just play to get their completionists.

You might say you are not arguing for that, but as a neutral (more or less, I have nothing against fighters, nor against you guys), it certainly gives that impression. By all accounts, make a tread where you guys use the planned improvements to argue for your case, but stop derailing this discussion about BARDS, because it really does not do much good.

[Silverleafeon]

You might say you are not arguing for that, but as a neutral (more or less, I have nothing against fighters, nor against you guys), it certainly gives that impression. By all accounts, make a tread where you guys use the planned improvements to argue for your case, but stop derailing this discussion about BARDS, because it really does not do much good.

I'm smiling and about to walk off in the sunset, because if the fighters are getting jealous of bards?!? then this design is about done.

I have posted and pressed and worked really hard to get to this point.

Thank you everyone, for helping.

Finally some bard love, pally/melee next up...

[Slasheboy]

So when a few Bard melee trees come out that are accidentally more powerful than they should be, the solution is to edit all of the 16 existing melee trees to match up with the new power level. That's a whole lot of work for the developers!

I'm actually in the process of coming up with ideas and suggestions to help re-tweak and balance the current combat.

But its no secret that Barbarian and Pally trees and Stalwart tree do need some serious help.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nce-Pass-Ideas

EDIT: Turns out you're already posting there. Heh. Thanks for your suggestions.

[Takllin]

Wrong Takllin. Let me correct you there: instead of "a lot of us have commented" actual fact is "Me, Cetus and 1-2 others have commented a lot"

Guys, I fully understand that you would like to lobby for improvements to Fighter and for THF. But if you just get off your high horse and read back what you actually wrote, Cetus and you as support team have been calling to nerf SWF, nerf Swashbuckler and now call to not put in good changes that might help ALL types of bards a bit more than a class one would just play to get their completionists.

You might say you are not arguing for that, but as a neutral (more or less, I have nothing against fighters, nor against you guys), it certainly gives that impression. By all accounts, make a tread where you guys use the planned improvements to argue for your case, but stop derailing this discussion about BARDS, because it really does not do much good.

I'm sorry, then clearly you have not read my posts. I have not once asked for a nerf to SWF or Swashbuckler. Can you point out where I did in fact state such a thing? I'll be waiting...In fact, I also challenge you to find where Cetus posted asking for SWF or Swashbuckling to get nerfed...I know for a fact, that you will not find either of us calling for a nerf to Swashbuckling or SWF. So don't hold your breath while you go looking for it.

What is it with people who do not read the entirety of what is posted lately?

I am arguing against Spinning Ice attack, I am not arguing against all types of Bards. FFS my main, is a completionist Warchanter!!!! I love a lot of these changes, but there comes a point when something is too much, and Spinning Ice Attack is.

[Dilbon]

Since the DC of that freeze thingy is a hot topic, here's a suggestion for it:

14 + bard levels + listen skill

Now why listen? It's a class skill for bards and they get enough skill points to invest in it. It would mean a forgotten skill would finally get some love. As no bard ever starts with a WIS score more than 8, the skill would not rise to perform levels, thus being more balanced. Also there would be a nice synergy in Fury of the Wild's Acute Instincts, +6 listen and +2 WIS when Scaldic raged.

Ok, but how would this make any sense? Well, maybe a bard could somehow hear the enemies' weak spots or something. But does it really matter.

[Rull]

Ok, its either I'm doing a terrible job of expressing myself or people just read half of what I wrote and make up the other half to which they respond.

I want mass stunning blow to be part of pure fighter appeal. I'm not looking to get mass stunning blow on my current build.

I definitely agree fighters need some tactics love.
However I think the ability to disable is too integral in combat that it shouldn't be limited to them. Or more specifically, I hate to see it combined with the best damage-output that mulriclass fighters now achieve.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...g-and-tanking)

I want to see an offensive tree, a defensive tree (not tied to weapon style) and a tactical tree, so that fighters can be dps+stun, tank+stun or dps+tank depending on what the like to play.

[Rull]

I definitely agree fighters need some tactics love.
However I think the ability to disable is too integral in combat that it shouldn't be limited to them. Or more specifically, I hate to see it combined with the best damage-output that mulriclass fighters now achieve.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...g-and-tanking)

I want to see an offensive tree, a defensive tree (not tied to weapon style) and a tactical tree, so that fighters can be dps+stun, tank+stun or dps+tank depending on what the like to play.

Note that this could have an effect that bard/fighters would be the ultimate stunners, which is imo desirable.

If fighters want to go all-in on dps and sacrifice defense and tactics. there would be a fighter/rigue or fighter/barb split.
If they want to go all-in on defense there would be a fighter/paladin split
And if they want to go all-in on tactics and sacrifice dps and survivability, they go fighter/warchanter