The Official Warchanter Lamannia Feedback Thread

[Lifespawn]

I'm not sure, you tell me...what does the title say? Have something productive to add?



14 Base + 20 Bard + 28 CHA Mod + 10 Ring + 6 Combat Mastery + 6 LD Tactics + 3 Bladeforged + 2 Tactician + 1 Echoes Twist + 3 Fighter PL + 2 Fearsome Bladeforged = 95 DC for the Spinning Ice and Frozen Fury

how are you getting a 66 cha?

bladeforged would be costly with having to lesser and alignment change so win for turbine?

[poltt48]

Perhaps you're right, but as long as I am able to voice my concerns over them, I'll do it - instead of hoping that the pendulum swings back.

I don't want nerfs - I want the devs to simply make up their minds about the niche each class is supposed to fill.

This is kinda whats on my mind...

Sorcs - Nuking Gods

Wizards - DC gods

Fighters - master tacticians

barbs - Kings of melee DPS

Bards - masters of party buffage, and DECENT at melee/cc

things like that, I think that if the devs can create a goal for each class and where they should be with respect to one another, we'll have a healthier series of enhancements updates in the future.

Personally I don't think they should make a niche for each class. Reason I love this game is how much you can customize characters. If you want to have to play your character a certain way because of what your class is go play another MMO.

[Takllin]

how are you getting a 66 cha?

bladeforged would be costly with having to lesser and alignment change so win for turbine?

Without Bladeforged its a 90 DC anyways.

I don't remember the breakdown, but I can reach a 66 on my Sorc.

[Nayus]

Since all of these development changes should be looked at "in toto", then yes. Adding things in one tree obviously can affect others, and Fighters are currently in a poor state of affairs if you want to run a pure class for a viable capstone or wish to do anything really tactical based on existing enhancements.

So, tossing out interesting tactical options to another class's tree is definitely something that affects others, and Fighters rather glaringly.

That can't be helped, fighters only have 1 enhancement tree unless you're S&B, put a few points in Stalwart for a few perks and you're still left with 60 points to spend in a single tree, that's why pure fighters and pure pallies are bad.

[Aelonwy]

Is there any possible way for them to setup the DC to work with the Perform skill (obviously without Stunning bonus) and it be viable but not OP?

[Nayus]

Is there any possible way for them to setup the DC to work with the Perform skill (obviously without Stunning bonus) and it be viable but not OP?

Well actually making it Perform-based will only make it stronger since you wouldn't need to dedicate another slot for it.
And yeah, it would be better if it did not give helpless status.

[Scrabbler]

Is there any possible way for them to setup the DC to work with the Perform skill (obviously without Stunning bonus) and it be viable but not OP?

Looking at what happened with Coup De Grace, using a Perform DC is the fast-track to overpowered.

The only reason Perform DC was acceptable for Fascinate is because you have a quite limited number of songs and because individual monsters break out as soon as you try to kill them. But putting a skill DC on an attack that causes helplessness or death should be a no-no (unless the cooldown is 5 minutes!)

[thunir]

Personally I don't think they should make a niche for each class. Reason I love this game is how much you can customize characters. If you want to have to play your character a certain way because of what your class is go play another MMO.

pure builds should be Niche

If you want flavor, you have racial enhancements and class splits.

If pure builds were not niche, there would never be a reason to go pure....

In the context of warchanter, if they don't find a niche for this class tree it will be a waste of time. Warchanter needs standout max buffage, because really that is the only thing of value it has to add to a party. Warchanter will never be max DPS, or max heals, or max CC. So why would a raid group or a party choose a warchanter over any other class more suited to the aformentioned tasks.

[mezzorco]

pure builds should be Niche

If you want flavor, you have racial enhancements and class splits.

If pure builds were not niche, there would never be a reason to go pure....

In the context of warchanter, if they don't find a niche for this class tree it will be a waste of time. Warchanter needs standout max buffage, because really that is the only thing of value it has to add to a party. Warchanter will never be max DPS, or max heals, or max CC. So why would a raid group or a party choose a warchanter over any other class more suited to the aformentioned tasks.

A master buffer doesn't need to be unable to do anything else. A Warchanter shouldn't become the party clicky.
A bit of DPS and healing is granted, thankfully, but they're not enough to compensate. A viable melee CC is well suited for the frontline bard tree.

Why do you think a warchanter should only be a buffer? Imagine how boring would it be to play a pure buffer: party buffing at quest entrance -> idle until buffs run out -> rebuff -> repeat.
Buffing+CC is a very good support combo, your party will greatly benefit from having a warchanter in it, but this absolutely doesn't make warchanters overpowered.

[Shinjiteru]

I don't remember the breakdown, but I can reach a 66 on my Sorc.

Seems I missed the enhancement that makes it viable for a warchanter to go pure Cha based. o.O
Most warchanters I ever met in DDO were going for melee dps as their main party role while not having to heal/buff or whatever. Unless you are a pdk I don't see how a warchanter could go Cha based like a sorc.

And without the tactical feats bonuses my warchanter is sitting at a DC of mid 40s atm with only slight improvements left to boost the DC.
Shall I spend 14AP for something that has no use in endgame content? o.O

But if all the tactical DC based stuff would give warchanters that kind of DC then we should probably just use the mechanic from the swashbuckler tree and get the DC perform based. Would get rid of the cha based DC in a tree that is mainly used for str based toons.

So maybe we should try to use '10+half bard levels+half perform as DC' to start balancing this DC to a value that you can reach a DC of 60+ with a usual warchanter build and not some theorycrafting max cha based warchanter build which only works if going pdk.

The real question is more like "Since Bards already have CC effects like Fascinate, Soundburst, Mass Hold, Mass Hold Person, Enthrall, Resistable Dance, Irresistable Dance, Cause Fear, Sleep, Face Slap, Fancy Footwork, and a new high-DC Frozen Fury, is it really a good idea to give them Northwind and Spinning Ice as well?"

OK let's check this list from a warchanter build perspevtive. Remember, the usual warchanter is melee based and is going str based instead of cha based.

Fascinate - check
soundburst -> warchanters don't get the DC high enough to use the stun/helpless effect
Mass Hold -> warchanters don't get the DC high enough
Mass Hold Person -> Warchanters fail DC again
Enthral -> with the new swashbuckler tree I am not sure how many warchanters are able to get that
Resitable Dance -> Warchanters have DC issues again
Irresitable Dance -> check
Cause Fear -> only a debuff and not CC, since Warchanters don't get the DC for the CC part of the spell
Sleep -> Warchantes DC issues again
Face Slap -> not a warchanter ability
Fancy Footwork -> not a warchanter ability

So there remain 2 CC effects which warchanter builds can use (3 if they are aiming for enthrall). Soo... when I look at that list from a warchanter perspective I have to say... if bards have such a large pool of CC, why can warchanters only use 2-3 of them and even the pure melee based swashbuckler tree has not only CC but an insta kill with much easier highend DC?

Now, a **** bard gets a mass stunning blow in a tree that requires no feats, the tactic itself is just given to it, and its a mass stunning blow incorporated in a cleave?

Yeah, because bards don't get various bonus feats and if aiming for the jack of all trades role in groups need more feets already than they get. Heck I dropped the thf line on my last warchanter build, even though he splashed 2 fighter for additional feats, because I tried to be able to toss some emergency heals if needed...
And your Cetus build for example... you manage to get all important melee AND ranged feats.
So you are able to furyshot like a ranger/monkcher and then just go back to be top melee dps.
So on top you also want a mass stun/cc?

From a perspective of a warchanter who won't be top at anything apart from buffing and spellsinger still having some nice caster buffs which might be more desired than the warchanter buffs. So I don't see a problem giving them another ability to make up for the fact that they won't compete with any other builds focused on dps, CC, spellcasting. The problem with DC based skills is that they are only usefull if you can get the DC in the minimum range to beat the 5% auto fail roll. Anything below and you can just skip to use the ability in endgame content.And the current version (without tactical feat bonus) is not working in endgame content.
But yeah... I would favor a Perform based DC like the swashbuckler stuff. And the swashbuckler at least supports going cha based a bit and warchanters who doesn't have any support for that get a cha mod based DC...

But as mentioned... I would prefer a perform based DC anyways which doesn't rely on various PLs and tactical DC improvements.


And don't get me wrong, I understand your problem that it's not viable to go pure fighter atm. I have this problem with my warchanter build since... nearly 4 years already... And this new tree seems to be the first update to ddo that changes stuff for bards which is going to improve the situation instead of making it worse.

So I guess you have a good chance to get some fighter enhancement reworks started after bard, paladin and barbarian had theirs reworked.

[Maelodic]

snip

In the Swashbuckler tree is Different Tack- which allows you to use CHA for damage for single weapon fighting.
Which also means you can go CHA based entirely and do plenty of DPS as a Warchanter as well as get all the CHA based goodies to other bards do.

[Shinjiteru]

So we are back at the point that all melee focused bards need to go single weapon fighting now if they don't want to feel gimp? So Swashbuckler tree invalidates nearly all current warchanter or melee focuses builds.

If an enhancement in a tree needs that you get a tier 3 enhancement of another tree to be usefull, then the enhancement itself is in the wrong tree.
So the DC calculation is wrong at the moment because it's not viable for a pure warchanter build.

[Cetus]

.
So you are able to furyshot like a ranger/monkcher and then just go back to be top melee dps.
So on top you also want a mass stun/cc?

Ok, its either I'm doing a terrible job of expressing myself or people just read half of what I wrote and make up the other half to which they respond.

I want mass stunning blow to be part of pure fighter appeal. I'm not looking to get mass stunning blow on my current build.

[Rautis]

So we are back at the point that all melee focused bards need to go single weapon fighting now if they don't want to feel gimp? So Swashbuckler tree invalidates nearly all current warchanter or melee focuses builds.

Yes, I can't think of a relatively pure bard build that wouldn't be stronger going CHA based with Smooth Flourishes. Only reasons to use Scaldic Rage are like carrying capacity and maybe qualifying for STR levers. STR allows for more DCs on Trip/Stunning Blow/Sunder but considering the DCs on Bard enhancement tree abilities there's not much reason to aim for those. The extra modifiers that only add to STR instead of CHA aren't really worth it if you consider the loss to CC DCs from taking STR instead of CHA.

If an enhancement in a tree needs that you get a tier 3 enhancement of another tree to be usefull, then the enhancement itself is in the wrong tree.
So the DC calculation is wrong at the moment because it's not viable for a pure warchanter build.

Getting enhancements from multiple trees to get your build to work is not uncommon so I have to disagree with that. I suggested in original Bard thread that DC should be based on a physical stat. Depending on if ranks allow for full bard level or not this CHA DC version might still be viable for lower CHA builds but then it would be one of the highest DC abilities on full CHA invested bards.

I want mass stunning blow to be part of pure fighter appeal. I'm not looking to get mass stunning blow on my current build.

I agree that pure fighters aren't doing too great at the moment. I don't think that having Spinning Ice in bard tree is a bad thing however. There has to be a reason to consider tier 5 Warchanter instead of Swashbuckler instakills or Spellsinger sp regen and ranged Otto's. The ability has to have possibility to build for a workable DC one way or another or it becomes yet another trash enhancement.

Fighters will surely get buffed when their time comes and I also like tactics side of fighter play. I think the best way to diversify fighter builds is to make their feats stronger so there are more good feats to choose from(and each 2 extra levels of fighter becomes a stronger choice because of this). For example I have been playing with this idea where Whirlwind Attack would perform most recently used tactical attack as AOE(and the Whirlwind Animation should also be faster than it is now).

[Aelonwy]

So maybe we should try to use '10+half bard levels+half perform as DC' to start balancing this DC to a value that you can reach a DC of 60+ with a usual warchanter build and not some theorycrafting max cha based warchanter build which only works if going pdk.

Would 10 +1/2 bard levels +1/2 perform work? Would that be viable but not OP?

In the Swashbuckler tree is Different Tack- which allows you to use CHA for damage for single weapon fighting.
Which also means you can go CHA based entirely and do plenty of DPS as a Warchanter as well as get all the CHA based goodies to other bards do.

Perhaps I'm mistaken but I thought Different Tack was meant to only work with SWF? How would that be useful to a 2HF warchanter for instance? My warchanter was always specced for 2HF, as it felt more skaldic warrior-maiden-like. It would feel backwards and ironic to force a warchanter to spec heavily into the Swashbuckler tree in order for them to be reasonably charisma based to make one of their tier5 abilities work best. If I am not mistaken and that is how it truly works then most warchanters will end up forced into SWF. Even if I am not mistaken, and Different Tack works with any fighting style, then most warchanters will be pushed/heavily encouraged to spend up to tier3 in Swashbuckler, because a Tier5 warchanter ability relies on Cha for its DC.

The more I look at it the more I feel either Warchanter needs its own enhancement that allows charisma to damage or the DC for that Tier5 ability should not have charisma as part of the formula.

[mezzorco]

The more I look at it the more I feel either Warchanter needs its own enhancement that allows charisma to damage or the DC for that Tier5 ability should not have charisma as part of the formula.

What about this: DC 10 + bard level + CHA, +1/3 of your STR modifier if you STR is higher than your CHA.
(pretty much the way tactical feats work for PDKs, but with opposed roles for STR and CHA)

[Mryal]

My remark contained within it an assumption that fighters are supposed to be the better tacticians, that was their niche. No?

Right now, if I want to be as effective as I can be, I'm forced to splash monk with my fighter because that is what the kensei tree demands.

You guys did not incentivize staying pure fighter at ALL. You tacked on a few tactics DC to the capstone, gave a tactics enhancement in the tree...but for what tactics?

Stunning blow is a base 10 dc + str mods + stunning mods with an enormous cooldown and costs a feat. That's the only helpless tactic a TACTICIAN in this game has.

Now, a **** bard gets a mass stunning blow in a tree that requires no feats, the tactic itself is just given to it, and its a mass stunning blow incorporated in a cleave?

And, you don't see a problem with this?

I'd love to go back to pure fighter - those that are blindingly saying I'm trying to buff my centered kensei - Wrong. I'm trying to make a case for going back to pure fighter and being competitive with a worthy melee tactics/dps tree.

Your attempts to wine at the bard tree only once again show that you dont know anything about classes other than your precious fighter.
SO lets see.Bards get a mass stuning blow, at first glance that seems quite unbalanced, but then:
1 - Its a tier 5 enhancement
2 - It uses CHARISMA for DC and isnt buffed from tactic DC buffs

What does this essentialy means? Well first, even if you do a max CHA Warchanter (wich isnt even optimal) you will still fall behind at least in 10 DC compared to fighter tactics from YOUR build, if you've run EE content, you'd know that, on a fort save, thats a HUGE difference.Ok so lets continue on that line.you took tier 5 frozen fury, and youre maxed CHA.This means youre either :
1- a PDK using CHA to damage on one of the sub-optimal weapons of choice they have.In this case you likely have fighter lvls, and reduced your Frozen Fury DC.If you want evasion, you will further decrease your DCs by splashing even more.
2 - a swashbuckler, using SWF finesse weapons.In this case youre considerably sub-optimal from not taking tier 5's on swashbuckler, and as the above mentioned, youre either splashing for evasion and hurting your DCs, or youre pure and managing to spend 41 points on swashbuckler for evasion while still having tier 5's spent on warchanter, wich means you've done a great sacrifice.

In BOTH cases you fall behind in DPS considerably from a centered kensai build wich in my opinion makes a lot of sense, fighters are supposed to be better.Not to mention that beign CHA based and on a feat starved class means you likely locked out blitz from not having cleave.Assuming you didnt took a deep fighter splash, wich then gimps frozen fury DC.You see where im going? It clearly requires a great investment into making it work, a limitation directly in your level split.

Frozen fury and all other warchanter stun attacks dont even begin to compare to either stunning blow or imp trip, they cant reach the DC of a STR based tactic feat, and they require BARD LEVELS to have a higher DC, while stunning blow/imp trip are feats that can be taken by ANYONE.

OFF TOPIC : So Cetus how did your guild went from bellow 90 to 130+ in two weeks? that must have been one hell of a grind right...

[Takllin]

Your attempts to wine at the bard tree only once again show that you dont know anything about classes other than your precious fighter.
SO lets see.Bards get a mass stuning blow, at first glance that seems quite unbalanced, but then:
1 - Its a tier 5 enhancement
2 - It uses CHARISMA for DC and isnt buffed from tactic DC buffs

What does this essentialy means? Well first, even if you do a max CHA Warchanter (wich isnt even optimal) you will still fall behind at least in 10 DC compared to fighter tactics from YOUR build, if you've run EE content, you'd know that, on a fort save, thats a HUGE difference.Ok so lets continue on that line.you took tier 5 frozen fury, and youre maxed CHA.This means youre either :
1- a PDK using CHA to damage on one of the sub-optimal weapons of choice they have.In this case you likely have fighter lvls, and reduced your Frozen Fury DC.If you want evasion, you will further decrease your DCs by splashing even more.
2 - a swashbuckler, using SWF finesse weapons.In this case youre considerably sub-optimal from not taking tier 5's on swashbuckler, and as the above mentioned, youre either splashing for evasion and hurting your DCs, or youre pure and managing to spend 41 points on swashbuckler for evasion while still having tier 5's spent on warchanter, wich means you've done a great sacrifice.

In BOTH cases you fall behind in DPS considerably from a centered kensai build wich in my opinion makes a lot of sense, fighters are supposed to be better.Not to mention that beign CHA based and on a feat starved class means you likely locked out blitz from not having cleave.Assuming you didnt took a deep fighter splash, wich then gimps frozen fury DC.You see where im going? It clearly requires a great investment into making it work, a limitation directly in your level split.

Frozen fury and all other warchanter stun attacks dont even begin to compare to either stunning blow or imp trip, they cant reach the DC of a STR based tactic feat, and they require BARD LEVELS to have a higher DC, while stunning blow/imp trip are feats that can be taken by ANYONE.

OFF TOPIC : So Cetus how did your guild went from bellow 90 to 130+ in two weeks? that must have been one hell of a grind right...

You fail at reading....Tactic DC increases do in fact work on it. It is possible to achieve a 106 DC with it as a PDK, and no I'm not making this up, it is entirely possible. You can easily get a higher DC on Frozen Fury and Spinning Ice than Stunning Blow without as much investment. The CD for Frozen Fury is 6 seconds, Spinning Ice is 25 seconds. Stunning Blow is 15 seconds, and only lasts for what? 6-7 seconds?

Also, greatswords and bastard swords are not sub-optimal weapons.

We got to level 140 by running EE sagas while we eTR, taking them for renown with pots going. Not that hard to do. Especially the heroic sagas.

[Cetus]

.

OFF TOPIC : So Cetus how did your guild went from bellow 90 to 130+ in two weeks? that must have been one hell of a grind right...

We're cheating and duping renown.



Seriously, I take this as a compliment - we're amazing players. By zerging EE content as efficiently as we do, sagas get knocked out instantly. With a 200% pot and a smaller guild size = 230,000 renown per saga. Do the math.

[Ebondevil]

This is fine feedback and something that can be acted on. Thank you.

Tome Of Battle: Book of Nine Swords could have a lot of useful inspiration in it for Fighter types.