The Official Warchanter Lamannia Feedback Thread

[Aelonwy]

Seeing as how the patch will be hitting live tomorrow and we haven't had a comment from a dev on our thoughts, ideas, suggestions and issues with this tree since the 11th, well I don't know about you but it kind of makes me feel like I'm wasting my time here. Was any feedback considered after Friday?

[Scrabbler]

That said 3 ap for d6 damage is weak, and not better than 60% of melee enhancements in the game. A straight +1 to base damage works out to a bit over 1.5 damage a swing on a Swash capable weapon...which factoring in attack speed and such makes it closer to the mid 2 damage range. Never mind any other effects such as double strike, fury, blitz, helpless, etc etc.

Either a +1 base damage or 1d6 energy damage would be better than the majority of enhancements in melee trees. Of the 29 enhancements in KOTC, 20 are clearly worse than 1d6 damage, and a few more are arguable.

The old version of Warchanter (which is below-average power for a melee tree) has 28 icons. 10 of those are clearly worse than 1d6 passive damage, and 11 are probably worse (depending on what else your build needs). Of course, the new Warchanter has much stronger enhancements, so a lot fewer are worse than 1d6 damage; it would be rare for 1d6 damage to seem better than some mega-stuns, AOE damage buff, or group run speed.

[Nayus]

Seeing as how the patch will be hitting live tomorrow and we haven't had a comment from a dev on our thoughts, ideas, suggestions and issues with this tree since the 11th, well I don't know about you but it kind of makes me feel like I'm wasting my time here. Was any feedback considered after Friday?

And probably none of it is due to Cetus and his friends complaning about how bladeforged centered kensai are gimp and how bards are OP for about 9 pages. If I were a Dev I would certainly get tired of reading anything.

But either way, GRATZ and THANKS for all developers who worked in the bard trees, they're looking great! I can't wait until I can respec my toon tomorrow.

[Takllin]

Either a +1 base damage or 1d6 energy damage would be better than the majority of enhancements in melee trees. Of the 29 enhancements in KOTC, 20 are clearly worse than 1d6 damage, and a few more are arguable.

The old version of Warchanter (which is below-average power for a melee tree) has 28 icons. 10 of those are clearly worse than 1d6 passive damage, and 11 are probably worse (depending on what else your build needs). Of course, the new Warchanter has much stronger enhancements, so a lot fewer are worse than 1d6 damage; it would be rare for 1d6 damage to seem better than some mega-stuns, AOE damage buff, or group run speed.

KotC is the poster boy for a horrible tree. Not sure that is an accurate measuring stick. Most melee trees have a lot of worthwhile enhancements. Like others have brought up, making this 1d6 more in line with the AA imbues would make it worthwhile. Add in to Howl of the North, that if you are using the 1d6 passive cold damage, while it is active, you get the -1 to saves and they are slowed a bit IIRC.

And probably none of it is due to Cetus and his friends complaning about how bladeforged centered kensai are gimp and how bards are OP for about 9 pages. If I were a Dev I would certainly get tired of reading anything.

But either way, GRATZ and THANKS for all developers who worked in the bard trees, they're looking great! I can't wait until I can respec my toon tomorrow.

Yes, this was definitely what was being posted.......

Or it could just be that it was the weekend...and they all have the weekend off...and that they did not give any feedback to anything Update 22 Patch 2 related since then...

[Dilbon]

So this is how it is now after the patch (rank 3):

Frozen Fury 10 + charisma mod + 1/2 bard level + stunning modifiers
Spinning Ice 14 + charisma mod + 1/2 bard level + stunning modifiers

Also Iced Edges doesn't do anything whether it's toggled on or off. Should it even be a toggle? Right now it's just a waste of AP.

[Loek]

So this is how it is now after the patch (rank 3):

Frozen Fury 10 + charisma mod + 1/2 bard level + stunning modifiers
Spinning Ice 14 + charisma mod + 1/2 bard level + stunning modifiers

Also Iced Edges doesn't do anything whether it's toggled on or off. Should it even be a toggle? Right now it's just a waste of AP.

How about the AP costs, did they change any?

[Dilbon]

How about the AP costs, did they change any?

I think it was 1 per rank for everything in that chain except Northwind which is 2.

[Scrabbler]

Frozen Fury 10 + charisma mod + 1/2 bard level + stunning modifiers
Spinning Ice 14 + charisma mod + 1/2 bard level + stunning modifiers

Did anyone check if PDK tactical bonus counts for Frozen Fury?

Also Iced Edges doesn't do anything whether it's toggled on or off. Should it even be a toggle? Right now it's just a waste of AP.

Theoretically you'd want to toggle Iced Edges off against frost skeletons, which heal from cold.

[Takllin]

Did anyone check if PDK tactical bonus counts for Frozen Fury?


Theoretically you'd want to toggle Iced Edges off against frost skeletons, which heal from cold.

I could check in a moment for you, but I'm assuming it should as its a Tactic. All of my stunning mods and such worked on the DC for it.

Yup it works.

[FlaviusMaximus]

How about the AP costs, did they change any?

Most of the tier 5 abilities now cost 1 AP each. Very happy to see that change.

[Loek]

I could check in a moment for you, but I'm assuming it should as its a Tactic. All of my stunning mods and such worked on the DC for it.

Yup it works.

That's good. What sort of DC numbers are you hitting?

I have managed to get Spinning Ice to 62 by:
- Exalted Angel (up to +10 Cha total while in Angel form. 6 from tree, 2 from Angelic Presence, 2 from Angel form.)
- EE Hammer of the Leaden Clouds (+10 Stunning)
- +6 Legendary Tactics twist
- EH Consuming Darkness (+5 Excep. Combat)
- 8 Cha Voice of Deceit ring
- +3 Insightful Cha from EE Intricate Field Optics

Also, I took the -3 Fort Insult from the Swashbuckler tree putting it up to 65 if I need. This is also without any Fighter Past lives. I am also still TWF wielding Balizarde and offhand Hammer of Leaden Clouds. If this works out I may pull Mornh from my spare Raider's Reward box.

[Loek]

Most of the tier 5 abilities now cost 1 AP each. Very happy to see that change.

Yes, that is indeed nice. I've managed to get all the chants(minus arcane shield), entire frozen attack line and +10% group bonus speed(45 ap total spent) and splash 15 into Half elf, 4 Kensei, 8 SS, 8 Swash(Yes i know I can't utitilize much from swash except the dodge % and run speed). But it sure is nice being able to run as fast as a monk!

[Shinjiteru]

I am currently sitting at a DC of 42. Still missing a stunning item, but since I am thf and don't have an alchemical thf weapon there are not many good weapons to get this on a weapon. So starting to farm the matron again for the ring. :S

So compared to your list I am missing:
- +10cha from Exalted Angel
- +5 exc. combat feat bonus
- +3 insightful cha item
- +10 stunning item

So the easy to obtain stuff would bring me to a DC of 46, if I switch to a charisma based ED 49(51 if exalted angel).
I have 2 fighter levels atm, but that's better for this DC than going pure bard since 1 fighter level is +3 DC(would need to get spellsinger capstone to compete with that).
I probably finally TR into pdk until I was able to farm the important items(+10 stunning ring since there are no good thf weapons with that stat that I know of), which might take some weeks/months.

Don't have fighter PLs and not going to farm for them in the near future.

So I see my max DC around 62 with a standard warchanter build.
So yeah... if you want to have a no fail DC for high level EEs you are forced to go swashbuckling(to be able to go charisma based) or pdk. PDK is having a much better support to go charisma based and getting a higher DC(if the +tactics of 1/3 cha mod is working on frozen fury and spinning ice). That's why I still think the warchanter tree needs an enhancement that supports going charisma based, with all the scrolls and some feats which are desirable for melee you still need a decent str value so that I doubt that this would increase the DC much more than +5. I mean... we are going to have players going for pdk or swashbuckler anyways to be able to get max DC on that, wouldn't be game breaking if the warchanter tree would offer this ability itself(preferably part of the capstone) to allow more different races to get to the same level.
I didn't realize on lammania that the warchanter capstone song is only for the target of inspire heroics and yourself, because that restriction makes the current capstone again not that desirable for me. Yeah it's a nice self buff but if I want to use it on all melees I am busy singing most of the time, even with the 3 min duration now. Luckily melees are becoming rare lately, in my last VoN raid the only melees were 2 bards everyone else was ranged or caster.

I mean... yeah you have to use the build opportunities to get your toon to the max possible stuff you want, but if that is leading us to a server population where most viable endgame toons are bf(wf) or pdk there is not much diversity left from all the build options ddo seems to offer. (or should I start with the players who say a viable melee endgame build needs 6 monk and 2 pally? The current plans of changes to enhancements might bring that to 6monk/4pally)
The power of a pure toon and splashed toons are too much apart from each other in my oppinion. That a splashed toon who took time in developing the build and putting together synergies of different classes/ehancements shall be stronger than pure toons is fine for me, but some of the splashes are overpowered compared to pure toons and I think that's sad because pure toons should be viable if someone prefers to make a pure toon, even if it's not the best option.

But this also made me notice that the game is lacking some good +10 stunning thf weapons, which was the key item on my monk splashes to get the stunning fist to a DC value which is viable in highlevel content and they are relatively easy to farm in the first Eveningstar chain.
Maybe someone is still reading that and might give a hint to the dev responsible for making new epic items for epic necro4. A good and not too rare thf weapon with +10 stunning.

[Dilbon]

My warchanter Spinning Ice DC:

14
10 half bard levels
16 charisma bonus
13 EH Giant's Fist
6 Adamantine Cloak of the Bear
3 dwarf
6 LD twist
1 Fatesinger LD echo
2 Tactician feat
--
71

[Takllin]

That's good. What sort of DC numbers are you hitting?

I have managed to get Spinning Ice to 62 by:
- Exalted Angel (up to +10 Cha total while in Angel form. 6 from tree, 2 from Angelic Presence, 2 from Angel form.)
- EE Hammer of the Leaden Clouds (+10 Stunning)
- +6 Legendary Tactics twist
- EH Consuming Darkness (+5 Excep. Combat)
- 8 Cha Voice of Deceit ring
- +3 Insightful Cha from EE Intricate Field Optics

Also, I took the -3 Fort Insult from the Swashbuckler tree putting it up to 65 if I need. This is also without any Fighter Past lives. I am also still TWF wielding Balizarde and offhand Hammer of Leaden Clouds. If this works out I may pull Mornh from my spare Raider's Reward box.

Once I hit 28 again, Ill have a 72 DC with Spinning Ice, 68 Frozen Fury. That was last life before I did an ETR, this life I did my starting stats and level ups a bit different so I might get another 1 or 2 DC to both of those. I don't have time right now but I can give you a breakdown later if you'd like.

[Loek]

My warchanter Spinning Ice DC:

14
10 half bard levels
16 charisma bonus
13 EH Giant's Fist
6 Adamantine Cloak of the Bear
3 dwarf
6 LD twist
1 Fatesinger LD echo
2 Tactician feat
--
71

You could twist Sense weakness instead of LD Echo for sure. Have you done a lot of top level EE content to test 71 dc ?

I'm not satisfied with my current DC check. But that is without redoing my character to reach a better number. I am still sporting a 16/2/2 Brd/Ftr/Rog (During MoTU xpac) Strength build with Great Cleave, TWF, Overwhelming Critical, full trap skills and 10 starting Cha. I'm contemplating changing it up to some wacky 16/2/2 Bard/Ftr/Fvs Cha build. I hate losing evasion and trap skills...

Takllin,

That must be a pure PDK bard with Cha ?

[Dilbon]

You could twist Sense weakness instead of LD Echo for sure. Have you done a lot of top level EE content to test 71 dc ?

I have twisted Sense Weakness, Fatesinger is active destiny. 71 works decently in Wheloon and 3BC EE, not every time but often.

[Takllin]

Takllin,

That must be a pure PDK bard with Cha ?

Nah, Im 15 Bard/4 Fighter/1 Cleric PDK, STR Based, CHA secondary.

[Shinjiteru]

My warchanter Spinning Ice DC:

14
10 half bard levels
16 charisma bonus
13 EH Giant's Fist
6 Adamantine Cloak of the Bear
3 dwarf
6 LD twist
1 Fatesinger LD echo
2 Tactician feat
--
71

Ok Giants Fist and 42 charisma, hows your str and how reliable are you able to hit?

But thanks, I didn't remember the Giants Fist weapon. Probably having a try on farming that instead of the stunning ring(my last 3 rings were all having shatter enhancement -.-).

@takllin: So the race of your build could easily be exchanged with standard human without having any impact on your frozen fury DC? Or is the pdk enhancement broken, so that you get the tactical feat bonus even if your cha is not higher than str?

And str based means you start with 14-16 cha and put 1-4 levelups into charisma instead of str?

[janave]

My remark contained within it an assumption that fighters are supposed to be the better tacticians, that was their niche. No?

Right now, if I want to be as effective as I can be, I'm forced to splash monk with my fighter because that is what the kensei tree demands.

You guys did not incentivize staying pure fighter at ALL. You tacked on a few tactics DC to the capstone, gave a tactics enhancement in the tree...but for what tactics?

Stunning blow is a base 10 dc + str mods + stunning mods with an enormous cooldown and costs a feat. That's the only helpless tactic a TACTICIAN in this game has.

Now, a **** bard gets a mass stunning blow in a tree that requires no feats, the tactic itself is just given to it, and its a mass stunning blow incorporated in a cleave?

And, you don't see a problem with this?

I'd love to go back to pure fighter - those that are blindingly saying I'm trying to buff my centered kensei - Wrong. I'm trying to make a case for going back to pure fighter and being competitive with a worthy melee tactics/dps tree.

Thanks.


For anyone who is thinking any class is subpar, and gimped: "ever tried a pure fighter?"

An untwinked fighter is real pain in any elite questing.
Enemy casters spam cc so fast you are almost permamently helpless, not to mention melee range is the most punishing of all combat styles, as for survivability.

Without spell absorb items, perma FoM, and displacement clickies, playing a fighter on elites is almost hopeless.
For moderate survivability you have to dedicate most of your gear slots to some level of defense, which is fun, but kinda gimps your dps.
In the meanwhile caster trees are giving out "free" heavy fort, and 20PRRs. Caster types already having inherent offense, so they dont have to slot that much offensively -.-

I think i tried most everything tho, i would like to hear, or even better "see" a developer how a proper pure Fighter is doing from lvl1-28.

Exclusive action boosts, and long tactics cooldowns ceirtainly dont help, when casters can spam instakill worthy SLA direct damage, and actual instankill spells at a faster rate i can stun an opponent, oh and they do it from range.
The spell points pool, resource management is an old argument, lets face it, even a newbie can bring mana potions to 75% of the quests he is doing.

It would help if every game obstacle would not be tinkered to favor caster types, so the melee types dont feel completely unsupported (and useless).

And if you really really really,
i mean really
care
at all

it is really time to revamp regeneration items, and healing potions. Really! let us pick actual "heal" as per the spell, potions in stacks of 2-3s at the rate Major Mana potions are dropping,
but only
if you really really care
about game balance