The Official Warchanter Lamannia Feedback Thread

[mezzorco]

14 + bard levels + listen skill

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
...wait, are you serious?

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[Aelonwy]

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
...wait, are you serious?

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Here's a hankie for those laughter tears. I wish a dev would chime in, if only to say "we're still reading and taking notes." I hope its not set in stone already.

[Mryal]

Here's a hankie for those laughter tears. I wish a dev would chime in, if only to say "we're still reading and taking notes." I hope its not set in stone already.

I dont think it will go live that way or even make it to lam that way, theres too much negative feedback about the formulas, even i who have always been a bard player have to agree that its just too much.I dont think tactic bonuses fit with bards at all tbh.
However, im sitting on a swash bard that has a 63+d20 DC trip at lv 23 atm and that is balanced.Only lasts 3 seconds, costs sp to activate and has a 18 seconds cooldown wich is much longer than any other form of melee CC.You have to choose your target wisely.
What i think would work and be fair is turn both Frozen Fury and Spinning Ice to d20+perform, wich suits a bard much more.
For frozen fury cooldown could be 30 or 40 seconds, and Spinning Ice would be 2 minutes and require charging, in the same way that Divine Vessel from warpriest does.I really think that mechanic should be used more.

Regarding fighters, ive always thought it was odd that they pretty much require monk lvls atm (unless stalwart tank).It doesnt fits with any other class, no one else has this dependency.Maybe after they bring out the armor changes heavy armor pure fighter stalwart/kensai will be a real alternative, but we'll have to wait and see.I think theres room for this discussion on next update since fighters will be greatly affected by the new changes.

[Cetus]

You are not pushing for nerfs here CLEARLY Cetus.. right?

THF was re-shaped around a fighter's glancing blows ability. SWF was built around a swashbuckler. THF feats are used by other classes/builds and so will SWF. They cant build the game around your videos and builds, they need to do what's best for the masses. THF feats are very easy to boost. Spin the wrench less than a quarter turn righty tighty on glancing blows procs/damage, and we have an entirely different fighter class. As much as I'd love to see it, this does not affect changes the devs are making to bard right now. Bards deserve and actually need what they got to get a foothold in a game long biased against thousands of bards.

I'm impressed you took it upon yourself to make your videos. But to anyone who truly understand DDOs mechanics, your videos are at best inconclusive, and do nothing more then sell Turbine did the right thing with SWF.

Your videos show SWF beat your THF by 2.2%. But its skewed, with so many variables not represented. Your gear are not chosen independently, you are moving around like a flea. With a 30% swing speed boost for SWF, it only did 2.2% better, and to top it off your SWF sample mobs #2 had 15% less hp. The videos are just random zeros and ones to me, it does not prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Anyway, in U24 we'll probably see boosts to fighter and paladin damage. As it stands, even GIVING YOU THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, I aint loosing sleep over a 2.2% difference in a greatest case scenario. It's just not that big a deal to most THFs, but its a hell of a great deal to the thousands that will be rolling bards now, and many more who will be incorporating bard levels into their builds going forward.

Alright, you are seriously having difficulty understanding my position and how to interpret my video entries after all of this?

Before you get blinded by your agenda to just "one-up" me in some argument, actually read these points:

What is CLEAR is that I'm pushing for an improvement to THF. This can happen by either NERFING SWF, or BUFFING THF. This is clear.

Now, when I'm confronted with a preference - I'd rather that THF gets buffed, I'm not pushing for a nerf. What I am pushing for is THF relevance in its forte context - AoE mobs. Alright?

Alright...

Videos:

This magical 2.2% difference.

EE WGU is one of the most mob dense quests in the game. There isn't much disagreement on this. I sought to apply the SWF combat style within exactly this context, and in the video you'll see that I frequently planted myself in dangerous situations in order to cleave many mobs and demonstrate its effectiveness.

Considering the amount of time it takes to find the NPC in part 2, to chase around the end boss, etc. (these variables you speak of), I'm making an educated guess that the 2.2% difference in time is well within the margins of error. So, you're right - it IS inconclusive as to which is better, in a mob dense quest.

When it came to single target enemies, every one is yelling and screaming how "of course! SWF is obviously better at single targets!". I agree, you don't need to test this to know, qualitatively, that extra 50% stat benefit AND 30% attack speed will be better. But, my testing wasn't for qualitative confirmation. i wanted to get a ball-park idea of how much better it really is. In the zeligat takedowns, I even gathered mass amounts of assassins and black guards to show more AoE damage from SWF.

Throughout all of those videos, there were a few that weren't exactly apples to apples, and I made notes depicting these differences. Not all of them were like this, some actually were apples to apples - and the overall amount of footage shows a significant and decisive advantage for SWF against single targets.

Even though some of the videos weren't perfect, I posted them anyway. This is what you do when you gather data or perform experiments, you make notes of things you think you can do better, areas that need more attention, etc - but you take into consideration the entire thing.

in the end - AoE damage inconclusive - single target damage is a sweep.

You tell me 1 reason why I should play THF right now other than flavor (which is my reason for still having it).

And I'm still waiting for people to submit their own comparisons so that we can get some reproducible comparisons between the two fighting styles.

[maddong]

I really hope that pdk tactics doesn't make it 4/3 charisma instead of charisma.

I really don't think they should be using perform dcs for stuns. If anything it should be half of perform with half charisma (meaning half perform ranks and item plus full charisma).

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

You tell me 1 reason why I should play THF right now other than flavor (which is my reason for still having it).

Yes, I understood your videos quite well, and your push for THF. I have no problem you pushing for improved THF feats, and fighter tactics. But this is a BARD FEEDBACK thread. Do we need to keep rehashing fighter improvements HERE?

SWF needed to do comparable damage to THF. There is NOTHING wrong with that. Your videos do NOT convince me on ANY of my THFs that I should abandon those weapons. Ok? Thank you. Good day.

[Cetus]

Yes, I understood your videos quite well,

You haven't demonstrated this at all

[Aelonwy]

However, im sitting on a swash bard that has a 63+d20 DC trip at lv 23 atm and that is balanced.Only lasts 3 seconds, costs sp to activate and has a 18 seconds cooldown wich is much longer than any other form of melee CC.You have to choose your target wisely.

Personally, I mean truly individual preference here, but I would not build for or use something that only lasts 3 seconds. My ability to respond to such situations is not great. I'm really not even a fan of the 20 second action boots. Sure I use a few of them but its just not my preference. I suck at playing monk because I just can't wrap my head around all the buttons it seems to take to pull something off. Seriously, if anyone sees me on a monk, just avoid me... avoid me like the plague, I am a mediocre monk. I like toggles. Toggles are my friend. We need more toggles.

[Rull]

You tell me 1 reason why I should play THF right now other than flavor (which is my reason for still having it).

And I'm still waiting for people to submit their own comparisons so that we can get some reproducible comparisons between the two fighting styles.

I agree with a small buff to THF, by U can give you some:

1. When you don't have feats in abundance. untrained THF is miles and miles ahead of SWF and TWF. Any other class than fighter could rather pick up cleave+greatcleave and go THF instead of taking just SWF+iSWF+gSWF.

2. When you don't have 80 strength but other sources for damage. Of course when you combibe the +8 str from fighter8 with divine might swf starts to outclass thf.

Basically it seems there is a specific build and a couple of swashbuckler builds where swf is much better than thf.

But here's a bonus: 3. Weapon range. walking backwards kiting stuff while hitting the front mob is way more effective with a twohander. you can take 0 damage if you move at the right speed.

[IronClan]

What is CLEAR is that I'm pushing for an improvement to THF. This can happen by either NERFING SWF, or BUFFING THF. This is clear.

You tell me 1 reason why I should play THF right now other than flavor (which is my reason for still having it).

The problem is the Dev's have shown in fact openly posted on several occasions that when there are arguments about things being OP or just right etc. they tend to hang their hat, kick their feet up and call it good.

Warchanter despite 2 of you being very vocally against one ability because it's being called a Tactical ability instead of a spell or song ability is easilly far and away the weakest Bard tree even with the "tactical" ability you object to, you guys lobbying so hard are really muddying the waters, worsening the signal to noise ratio. it might not be so bad if you and your helpers were not in ALL THREE BARD THREADS talking about Fighter's and THF.

[Synthetic]

Ok, its either I'm doing a terrible job of expressing myself or people just read half of what I wrote and make up the other half to which they respond.

I want mass stunning blow to be part of pure fighter appeal. I'm not looking to get mass stunning blow on my current build.

Fighters should never have a mass stunning blow or any other type of mass CC. They should have better defensive abilities so they can do better aggro management, and have better survival.

Bards on the other hand should have the best crowd control in the game as that's their thing.

[Takllin]

The problem is the Dev's have shown in fact openly posted on several occasions that when there are arguments about things being OP or just right etc. they tend to hang their hat, kick their feet up and call it good.

Warchanter despite 2 of you being very vocally against one ability because it's being called a Tactical ability instead of a spell or song ability is easilly far and away the weakest Bard tree even with the "tactical" ability you object to, you guys lobbying so hard are really muddying the waters, worsening the signal to noise ratio. it might not be so bad if you and your helpers were not in ALL THREE BARD THREADS talking about Fighter's and THF.

Warchanter was often considered the worst of all enhancement trees, which means it deserves some pretty amazing new abilities in the upper tiers. We're happy for you guys to convince us it's too good and should be moved or changed; that's a major reason for the discussion for the past several weeks, after all. (Or we could just default to being super careful about giving out Good Things and never risk being too generous with Awesome Things. I've been warned about being too nice. Being Too Generous is the root cause of most Nerfs, after all.)

Correct. Bards are intentionally excellent at crowd control. This is an extension of that. We're willing to hear discussion why Fighters should be better at control than Bards or why a long cooldown AoE control attack doesn't fit in Warchanter, but let's be clear that's what the discussion is about.

There is some stuff Vargouille posted that he's willing to hear discussion about Spinning Ice Attack, this is not unwarranted "noise", and there are a bunch of others chiming in with their two cents on the topic.

As for Warchanter being the worst tree of the three by far, I really have to disagree. They have a 19-20 +1 crit multiplier, 6% doublestrike/shot/PRR, MRR and DR/melee, ranged damage and spell critical chance chant. They also have Frozen Fury, a single target Stun, which I think should have its CD increased from 6 seconds to 10 or 15. Northwind has been changed to no save, so on a 20, you automatically freeze the target, making it vulnerable. They also increased the core abilities to make our songs better. There are a bunch of other goodies they added, or buffed to make more viable. Warchanter is not a bad tree at all anymore.

[Takllin]

Fighters should never have a mass stunning blow or any other type of mass CC. They should have better defensive abilities so they can do better aggro management, and have better survival.

Bards on the other hand should have the best crowd control in the game as that's their thing.

Fighters are more than just a sword and shield tank...we have the Kensai tree, which an integral part of Fighter, and this tree is tactics. So yes, if anyone gets an AoE Stunning Blow, it is Fighters.

[Cetus]

it might not be so bad if you and your helpers were not in ALL THREE BARD THREADS talking about Fighter's and THF.

Alright, what?

Why do they have to be MY helpers? I'm just a poster who adopted a stance and there happens to be a group of others who agree. Maybe I'm their helper?

[Tilomere]

I think changes are good, especially the one that allows spells while barb raged. It flows with bards being the masters of manipulating emotions and morale.

As long as we're in agreement that the real melee classes are in need of some attention, I'm satisfied. This was really the overarching point as far as I'm concerned. As I've said, I don't want nerfs, I just want fair representation without having to carve out a new bard based build to remain maxed out.

I think the problem is you expect maxed dps and dps boosting abilities like mass stunning blow to be on a x/monk/pali BF with immunities to a ton of things, instant massive self healing at will, and saving throws high enough to count as immunities to almost everything else. That's not even close to balanced. There is a reason bards are getting AoE stun, which is the same reason druids have earthquake, and shiradi sorcs have nerve venom and ice storm. Low saves and low tankyness so they need it.

I don't think anyone will say that any class that can multiclass with monk/pali BF is unfairly represented in game populations right now for high end EE builds, or that any existing builds will be in any way diminished by bards getting boosts they need.

But never fear, if you want a max dps build I've already carved one out for you. The midicholirian count is over 20,000. Take Critzilla, and convert it to SWF melee, taking the dex to damage thrown halfling enhancement and replacing it with Killer for more double strike. Twist consecrate-sacred ground and sense weakness into LD, and you should hit a level of dps that has never before been seen in this game on a non-druid melee.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Warchanter despite 2 of you being very vocally against one ability because it's being called a Tactical ability instead of a spell or song ability is easilly far and away the weakest Bard tree even with the "tactical" ability you object to, you guys lobbying so hard are really muddying the waters, worsening the signal to noise ratio.

I completely agree, but you're feeding the trolls. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and realize that the last word isn't necessarily the best word, so let them have it.

The normal, relentless, self-serving lobbying that comes from certain forum contributors has likely evolved into something else that is probably still 75% self-serving, but now there seems to be a bit of trolling thrown in with it. In other posting locations there has been some vicious battling the last few days, and since such irrational, off-topic conversation in this thread makes no sense to me if there aren't some ulterior motives at play (besides narrow self-interest), I have to believe that we are, at least in part, being trolled out of spite.

Just be above the conversation. Fighters will get their tactical turn. That's been established, so any complaints or comparisons of the difference between Bard and Fighter tactics before Fighters get their update is really a waste of space in this thread.

This will not be the last word on this topic, but that wont change the fact that it is the best.

[Nayus]

2. My videos show EE WGU - one of the most mob dense quests in the game, get destroyed by a single weapon.

Sorry, can you link a video where you're using a Sword of Shadows in each hand? I thought it was a single weapon too!!!

I apologize for my lack of knowledge, I simply wasn't aware you could dual-wield two-handed weapons!


You speak of balance but you said it yourself you'd just ragequit for a week and go human if they nerf Bladeforged, what balance is this you talk about? Why aren't you calling nerfs to Monks and Shadow-Phase?

[Scrabbler]

In the previous official Warchanter thread, there was a suggestion that they get a t5 multiselector with bonuses to THF, TWF, or S&B combat. A developer responded that he didn't see a reason for that kind of feature, because Warchanter could just get a generic melee enhancement instead.

Well, here is the reason for a combat-style specific enhancement: So that it can be viable for a Warchanter to use a melee style besides SWF.

How it works out currently is that if you've already got Bard levels, you get a huge bonus to SWF damage by spending only a few AP, so it doesn't make sense to use any other melee style. For the sake of visual variety and world-building, it would be nice if those melee Bards who choose not to take Swash t5 can fight in a way that looks different from Swashing. Bonuses specific to THF / TWF would allow that.

[Takllin]

I think the problem is you expect maxed dps and dps boosting abilities like mass stunning blow to be on a x/monk/pali BF with immunities to a ton of things, instant massive self healing at will, and saving throws high enough to count as immunities to almost everything else. That's not even close to balanced. There is a reason bards are getting AoE stun, which is the same reason druids have earthquake, and shiradi sorcs have nerve venom and ice storm. Low saves and low tankyness so they need it.

I don't think anyone will say that any class that can multiclass with monk/pali BF is unfairly represented in game populations right now for high end EE builds.

But never fear, after the changes hit, if you want a max dps build I've already carved one out for you. The midicholirian count is over 20,000. Take Critzilla, and convert it to SWF melee, taking the dex to damage thrown halfling enhancement and replacing it with Killer for more double strike. Twist consecrate-sacred ground and sense weakness into LD, and you should hit a level of dps that has never before been seen in this game on a non-druid melee.

I honestly laughed at your post, you really need to read what has been posted, and rethink what you've said when it comes to Cetus.

I completely agree, but you're feeding the trolls. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and realize that the last word isn't necessarily the best word, so let them have it.

The normal, relentless, self-serving lobbying that comes from certain forum contributors has likely evolved into something else that is probably still 75% self-serving, but now there seems to be a bit of trolling thrown in with it. In other posting locations there has been some vicious battling the last few days, and since such irrational, off-topic conversation in this thread makes no sense to me if there aren't some ulterior motives at play (besides narrow self-interest), I have to believe that we are, at least in part, being trolled out of spite.

Just be above the conversation. Fighters will get their tactical turn. That's been established, so any complaints or comparisons of the difference between Bard and Fighter tactics before Fighters get their update is really a waste of space in this thread.

This will not be the last word on this topic, but that wont change the fact that it is the best.

Yes, because if someone has an opinion that does not match yours, they must be trolling...

Unless I've missed something, there has been zero mention by any Turbine employee that Fighters are going to get a tactical overhaul.

Sorry, can you link a video where you're using a Sword of Shadows in each hand? I thought it was a single weapon too!!!

I apologize for my lack of knowledge, I simply wasn't aware you could dual-wield two-handed weapons!


You speak of balance but you said it yourself you'd just ragequit for a week and go human if they nerf Bladeforged, what balance is this you talk about? Why aren't you calling nerfs to Monks and Shadow-Phase?

Again, someone who doesn't read what has been posted, just takes a single line and decides to comment on it. Clearly you have not seen his videos where he did EE WGU as a SWF build with a Bastard Sword. As for TWF, it has been stated before why he hasn't done any videos of them, but I'm done doing the work of digging up the posts to show others where they have either not read, or mistaken posts. Nice attempt at trolling though...

Just because something isn't balanced, does not mean that people can't get adjusted to and start to love an ability. Monks do not need nerfing, nor does Shadow Veil, but those are completely different topics for a different thread.

[Nayus]

I think the problem is you expect maxed dps and dps boosting abilities like mass stunning blow to be on a x/monk/pali BF with immunities to a ton of things, instant massive self healing at will, and saving throws high enough to count as immunities to almost everything else. That's not even close to balanced.

I don't think anyone will say that any class that can multiclass with monk/pali BF is unfairly represented in game populations right now for high end EE builds, or that any existing builds will be in any way diminished by bards getting boosts they need.

THIS.

Cetus said he'd love going back to Pure Figher so please add Mass Stunning Blow and Mass Trip to the Fighter Capstone.


Can we go back to discussing Warchanters now? Or hasn't the thread been derailed enough?