Make Buckler's and Light Shield Finessable

[Failedlegend]

I learned whils trying to build a swashbuckler (Dex/Cha based) that buckler's and light shields are not finessable this makes no sense especially in the context of a swashbuckler.

I mean their light enough to use evasion with (see "Armor Up" changes) so it makes sense that they should be finessable.

Edit: Apparently IC:Bludgeon doesn't work either, it should

[unbongwah]

I don't believe Pulverizer affects them, either.

What would be the point of making them Finesseable, though? Do you just want Different Tack to apply to shield bashes (rather than STR)?

[Failedlegend]

I don't believe Pulverizer affects them, either.

What would be the point of making them Finesseable, though? Do you just want Different Tack to apply to shield bashes (rather than STR)?

because if your weapon finesse you to-hit stat is dex not str so if your shield bashes aren't hitting whats the point in boosting shield bashes and I'd assume Different Tack does affect your shield (buckler).

As for different tack I wish it said "Whilst SWF or Swashbuckling" so it worked with thrown weapons.

[gwonbush]

Different Tack does effect your shield. Weapon finesse... does not.

[Failedlegend]

Different Tack does effect your shield. Weapon finesse... does not.

Thus the thread

[PsychoBlonde]

Why the heck are you bashing things with your shield anyway? That's like the lamest attack in the game.

I built a straight CHA bard swashbuckler. You get so many +hit bonuses from bard spells and abilities that it's ridiculous to waste a feat for a to-hit bonus, anyway.

[Failedlegend]

Why the heck are you bashing things with your shield anyway? That's like the lamest attack in the game.

Because shield focused builds gets shield bashes automatically whilst attacking with your main hand weapon, it's the entire focus of vanguard...if your not hitting with your bashes it defeats the purpose.

[droid327]

You get so many +hit bonuses from bard spells and abilities that it's ridiculous to waste a feat for a to-hit bonus, anyway.

This, though. Its not like anyone's running at 8 STR in Epic, for starters. To-hit is not hard to come by, nor is it that necessary. I hardly miss that much with my Arti, and he's got an off-stat to hit for Repeaters (DEX, which is only ~20something).

If you're missing that consistently with your shield bashes, you're either doing something wrong or the game is.

Plus, on top of all that....Vanguards are meant to keep STR as their 'native' stat. Swashbucklers have a choice of stat, but they don't get shield bashes, so there's no point in Finessing them. You cant really expect Vanguard to explicitly cater to Swashbucklers just because they complement each other...its bad enough that Kensei is basically a fourth Monk tree stashed in Fighter already

[Failedlegend]

Vanguards are meant to keep STR as their 'native' stat.

Who said that?

Swashbucklers have a choice of stat, but they don't get shield bashes, so there's no point in Finessing them.

Uh actually ANYONE who holds a shield can get shield bashes

You cant really expect Vanguard to explicitly cater to Swashbucklers just because they complement each other...its bad enough that Kensei is basically a fourth Monk tree stashed in Fighter already

I was only using swashbucklers as an example plenty of build will want to be able to finesse their bucklers or light shields.

[Seikojin]

Only buckler should be finessable. However I think all bludgeon effects/tacticals should apply to shields. Bug it.

[droid327]

Who said that?

Vanguard capstone works off STR bonus, even in the Pal version of the tree. And STR still is the basic native stat for melee attacks, for trees that don't have alternative stat-to-dmg effects.

Uh actually ANYONE who holds a shield can get shield bashes

Only if they spend a feat or use a shield with the Bashing affix. In the former case, why should Finesse apply? You're choosing the feat - it'd be like me complaining I cant take Insightful Reflexes and have it work with my WIS mod instead. In the latter case, since its just an affix on a single given item, just make a special Buckler with DEX-to-hit innately.

I was only using swashbucklers as an example plenty of build will want to be able to finesse their bucklers or light shields.

I doubt that. Most builds aren't going to want to spend a feat solely to increase their to-hit on shield bashes that only proc every 1-2 secs...

Besides, it doesn't even fit thematically. Finesse on light weapons represents a fighting style of light, quick action...thrusting and feinting and stretching out to find an opening. There's nothing finessed about whacking someone with your shield...even a buckler is still a large, awkward object compared to Light melee weapons.

[droid327]

Only buckler should be finessable. However I think all bludgeon effects/tacticals should apply to shields. Bug it.

Devs didn't want to pigeonhole Vanguards into only using Bludgeoning weapons by making things like IC:B or Pulverizer apply to shields.

Tactical bonuses should work though, on things like Stunning Shield? Bug that, probably.

[Failedlegend]

Vanguard capstone works off STR bonus, even in the Pal version of the tree. And STR still is the basic native stat for melee attacks, for trees that don't have alternative stat-to-dmg effects.

ONE ability in vanguard procs of of str...it doesn't mean it's "meant to be Strength"

It also has Dex as a stat boost (or str)

It's tier 5 ability it's designed to work for ANY STAT!

Shield Rush: While you have a shield equipped, Activate: Move forward in a line, delivering a shield bash attack to every creature hit. This shield bash does +2/4/6[W] damage and knocks down enemies who fail a saving throw of 20 + Highest Attribute Mod + Class Level + bonuses to trip attacks. Rank improves cooldown

Only if they spend a feat or use a shield with the Bashing affix. In the former case, why should Finesse apply? You're choosing the feat - it'd be like me complaining I cant take Insightful Reflexes and have it work with my WIS mod instead. In the latter case, since its just an affix on a single given item, just make a special Buckler with DEX-to-hit innately.

Str based characters have to spend that feat as well so thats a moot point

No, it's not like what you describe

Insightful reflexes changes reflex modifier to intelligence...you'd assume that should apply to all reflex based attacks and it does

Weapon finesse changes your attack stat for all LIGHT weapons (and rapiers)...you'd assume that should apply to ALL light weapons....bucklers and light shields are light class weapons and thus should be affected.

I doubt that. Most builds aren't going to want to spend a feat solely to increase their to-hit on shield bashes that only proc every 1-2 secs...

Yeah they would, so they can hit things with their finesse weapon since their dex based.

Besides, it doesn't even fit thematically. Finesse on light weapons represents a fighting style of light, quick action...thrusting and feinting and stretching out to find an opening. There's nothing finessed about whacking someone with your shield...even a buckler is still a large, awkward object compared to Light melee weapons.

Again I'm using Swashbuckler as an EXAMPLE...but several iconic Swashbucklers have used bucklers or other small shields offensively with finesse in combat.

[Zachski]

If weapon finesse applies to light maces and hammers, it should apply to light shields.

[Uska]

I can see buckler being so but not light shields and yes I use to fight in larps, SCA and recreations with sword and board including bucklers and light to tower shields some,built to real specs to old and fat to do,it any more and I know ddo isn't the same but I have a little idea how maneuverable they are.