Thanks for the maintenance. Great job......Sarcasm coming in 3...2...1

[Rixaen]

Le Sigh…



The part about your PC causing lag…that was sarcasm.

As were the comments about dragon tactics.

No one here gets my humor…



First, you and 90% of the people who post here have ZERO idea about what is and is not good “coding.” So you’re not in a position to judge. Even I’m not in a position to judge as I do not have access to the code, and I’ve been a hardcore coder now for 20+ years.

There are several factors that go into any piece of software running correctly, and they are as follows: the code you write, the third-party products you use to augment your code, and the PC you are running on. Even if two out of the three are PERFECT, if one of them is weak it makes the final product a turd. So, blaming the actual developers for a product that has issues in items that they have no control over like – say - a physics engine that they’ve relied upon for years that has some “issues” is totally unproductive. Odds are, some idiot made the decision to buy that ****, often against the will of the people who actually code the stuff, and because it is so ingrained that the costs to replace it outweigh the benefit of doing so.

As for the last leg of that tripod: the PC. Once again, 90% of the people here wouldn’t know if their PC was truly clean. There is so much going on in a PC, and there are a lot of variables in how it operates, that even some developers these days are rather in the dark about its operation. I only know some of the details because I have a background in electronics, and I know how the systems operate. Suffice to say, your definition of a “clean PC” varies quite differently from mine.

Oh, and the OS you’re running on? It’s not exactly what I’d call a sterling piece of work either. Windows, linux, Apple…they all have their little issues as well.

And let’s be honest here: few people are ever going to admit they have problems here with their PCs.

And once more – something you kinda glossed over – I’m not saying they DDO doesn’t have problems. I’m just pointing out that some of the things you are highlighting may be out of their control to fix. There are a LOT of connection points between your PC and the DDO servers, and any one of them along the chain can cause problems like you’ve seen. Do I think this is the case? I think it is highly probable that the server and client software have connectivity issues.

Do I know this for a fact? No.

Do you know this for a fact? Unless you actually work for Turbine, the answer is a definitive “no.”

So, before you start spouting off about who is and is not a fanboi / fanboy, you should be better informed as to the subject on which you are posting.

But, at the very least you didn’t call me “batman”…

If you dont like being compared to batman I can only surmise you are in fact a fan of superman and thus a traitor to all of the human race for siding with that alien monstrosity who by merely existing on our world undermines ever single human triumph and leaves only one rational goal, that of LExx Luthors to kill the superman.

[bsquishwizzy]

If you dont like being compared to batman I can only surmise you are in fact a fan of superman and thus a traitor to all of the human race for siding with that alien monstrosity who by merely existing on our world undermines ever single human triumph and leaves only one rational goal, that of LExx Luthors to kill the superman.

Thread lock in 3...2...1...

[Paleus]

How about some real testing. I'm talking 4 GB RAM, setting up at a remote location (not in office on a T1 or T3 line) Maybe assume a 20 MB or 50 MB connection. Load some every day fun stuff on a PC like Firefox, Word, Norton. Nothing crazy, but realistic to a typical player.

That wouldn't work, most companies have strict policies against downloading pron at work.

[Rixaen]

Thread lock in 3...2...1...

LOL are you just that not into comics, What I posted there is a long time batman vs superman fan war thing. Its well known that fans of batman are in the camp of earth and humanity, and superman fans secretly want him to be the father of every new baby born on earth so the next generation can all fly!

Its also why many say Lexx and Bats have something in common, in internal monologues they both frequently refer to Superman as "The Alien" and both point out that no matter how much he might try to be, he can never ever be a human nor understand what it is to be a human. Thus he has no place among us nor any right to tell us what is right or wrong or how to live best we can in this world of ours.

If talking comics is enough to get a thread locked well **** man just ****.

[RumbIe]

So I appreciate you spouting off and acting like an expert then trying to be humble and throwing in a caveat or two about you not being an expert. Hey it get it. No big deal. You know more than me on this subject. That's cool. I can live with that. There's probably quite a few people that fall in that category.

So let's put it this way. I don't care how they make the sausage. When I buy the sausage I base it on taste and texture. I don't care if they're using a Remhouse 3000 titanium meat grinder with graphite sensitive shimano blades. I don't care if they hand feed the pigs pan seared duck breast their entire life. When I buy a product I expect the person selling it to me is the expert and knows the most about it. They know what tools to use and third parties to contract with so if the end product is not what I am expecting then any decision they made along the way fall on their shoulders. So I like the sausage here, but it's start to get a bit tacky in texture and slowing down my ability to grill bratz like I'm at a Viking's tailgate party. So I have to ask the maker what's up.

If the coders are like a team of little Stephen Hawkings on meth brilliantly producing code, line after magical line I don't care. I'm sorry it falls on all of them. OK. Did i possibly use a generic term to lump them all in? Coders? Sure. My apologies to all the master coders out there.

The real issue is that the DDO Team, inclusive of all, is out of touch with end user experience. They are making decisions, call it coding, delivery, third party affiliations, who cares, that are having a negative impact on it's player base. It's not like I'm the only one experiencing issues. If I was I'd go buy a new PC. I'm in Boston with a 75 MBS fiber optic connection so if it all me then it can't be the number of stops to the server since the guy in Europe likely has more than me. However it's not just me. Sure my PC isn't as clean as yours. OK. You're like the Scrubby Bubble of PC cleanliness. However it seems to be good enough to do just about everything else I need. Without you getting on a soapbox about how evil and dumb Norton is I run it frequently and have active controls on. I run 2 different spyware apps every other weekend or so (easy to do overnight) and have a registry fix app I also run about once a month. So not Hugh Jackman in Swordfish cool, but not bad for a nab like me. I also check my task manager about once a quarter to see what' sucking up memory and kill/delete apps that got in or started without me wanting them.

So with all your wealth of knowledge surely you must concede on everything you see and hear that something must be up. Something must be not right or is that part of the community experiencing lag all trying to log in from North Korea on a dial up modem attached to a Commodore 64? (That's good technology there by the way)

So if you can at least concede that we may be experiencing something that is related to something somewhere at DDO then please all of you stop trying to kill threads like this where we are letting them know our dissatisfaction. Challenge them to take some time and play on one of our machines (or rather a close proximity). Maybe the game doesn't get along well with Windows. Maybe it hates Outlook. I'm sure you're on Linux. It's the cool thing to do. However if they can see what we see maybe they can make some changes rather than testing and playing in sterile environments or on set ups like yours which might represent a small fraction of the player base (or maybe a large fraction. Who knows. I don't have numbers)

Anyways lastly no offense intended. I'm "working" and seriously bored. I should be playing but was lagging a bit so took a break. Been fun. Cheers

[RumbIe]

That wouldn't work, most companies have strict policies against downloading pron at work.

Nice +1. Too funny. However likely a real scenario/factor.

[bsquishwizzy]

So with all your wealth of knowledge surely you must concede on everything you see and hear that something must be up. Something must be not right or is that part of the community experiencing lag all trying to log in from North Korea on a dial up modem attached to a Commodore 64? (That's good technology there by the way)

Uhhh…we speaking the same language here? Didn’t I do this several times? Reading is fundamental, ya know…

And – once again – how do you know the lag is not because of your provider? Hummm?

So if you can at least concede that we may be experiencing something that is related to something somewhere at DDO…

Which I’ve done at least twice in my posts. (See “reading is fundamental” comments above.)

…then please all of you stop trying to kill threads like this where we are letting them know our dissatisfaction. Challenge them to take some time and play on one of our machines (or rather a close proximity). Maybe the game doesn't get along well with Windows. Maybe it hates Outlook. I'm sure you're on Linux.

I don’t use Linux. I use Windows.

Secondly…do you have the money in your back pocket to spend so that they can get an array of machines for the following:

1) XP 32-bit (assume 1 GB minimum),
2) XP 64-bit (assume 1 GB minimum),
3) Vista (assume 1 GB minimum),
4) Windows 7 32-bit (assume 2 GB minimum),
5) Windows 7 64-bit (assume 2 GB minimum),
6) Windows 8 (assume 4 GB minimum),
7) Windows 8.1 (assume 4 GB minimum).

Communications platforms:
1) Standard Ethernet,
2) WiFi 802.11 b
3) WiFi 802.11 n 150
4) WiFi (fastest you can get)
Now let’s add video cards. How many video cards do you want to test on? Two? Five? Fifty? I tell you what, let’s settle on just 10.

So the combinations here are:

7 PCs x 4 communications platforms x 10 video cards = 280 different combinations or real-world, bare-minimum testing. And I’m not even talking percentage of disk space available, dual core vs quad core, Intel vs AMD, service packs, video game drivers, DSL / cable modems, and all of those OTHER lovely factors that contribute to speed, lag, etc.

If they did what you recommend, we’d never see a release.

So, you can sit there and stamp your feet, curse the day Turbine came into existence, shake your fist in the air, or join a hipster techno-commune for all I care. Asking them to test in real-world situations is not as practical as you blithely assume.

Sincerely,

The Batman.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

...and people said being able to hand our negative reputation was a bad thing....

[issalar]

I was part of that raid and there is one point that was left out and that was this was just after the total maintenance on all games that was extended. I think that something (whatever made them extend the maintenance i would guess) was not fully smoothed out and caused a problem. but if you noticed the lag has calmed down. not saying that something is not wrong but the coders do not make all the choices. think of the E3bc release it was rushed from what i could see most times it spends a while longer in lamania. How much extra would they make from that... not as much as a brand new pack that has to be bought by non-vips to play.

all in all just cut them some slack too many people jump down their throat for the smallest thing and anyone who is vip and feels entitled to have x fixed or complain about y hours of maintenance after a release The latter is not always that easy and the former may be because of people who do what they shouldn't. If there is too much lag to play with then find something else to do for a while and try later. go grill something, take a walk, start/finish that project you wanted to do, make plans, or what ever i think that it is not bad to want to play the game a lot but there are other things to do if there is a problem that stops or impedes you.

Have a nice day.

P.S. Still love the game turbine

P.S.S yes i do other things when game is down and when it is up so don't question me about it.

[eachna_gislin]

I don’t use Linux. I use Windows.

Secondly…do you have the money in your back pocket to spend so that they can get an array of machines for the following:

1) XP 32-bit (assume 1 GB minimum),
2) XP 64-bit (assume 1 GB minimum),
3) Vista (assume 1 GB minimum),
4) Windows 7 32-bit (assume 2 GB minimum),
5) Windows 7 64-bit (assume 2 GB minimum),
6) Windows 8 (assume 4 GB minimum),
7) Windows 8.1 (assume 4 GB minimum).

Communications platforms:
1) Standard Ethernet,
2) WiFi 802.11 b
3) WiFi 802.11 n 150
4) WiFi (fastest you can get)
Now let’s add video cards. How many video cards do you want to test on? Two? Five? Fifty? I tell you what, let’s settle on just 10.

So the combinations here are:

7 PCs x 4 communications platforms x 10 video cards = 280 different combinations or real-world, bare-minimum testing. And I’m not even talking percentage of disk space available, dual core vs quad core, Intel vs AMD, service packs, video game drivers, DSL / cable modems, and all of those OTHER lovely factors that contribute to speed, lag, etc.

If they did what you recommend, we’d never see a release.

So, you can sit there and stamp your feet, curse the day Turbine came into existence, shake your fist in the air, or join a hipster techno-commune for all I care. Asking them to test in real-world situations is not as practical as you blithely assume.

Sincerely,

The Batman.

They have employees. These employees have homes outside their workplace. These employees will have computers in their homes. Many will have more than one computer. Even living in the same geographical area, they will have differing methods of connecting to the internet. The employees will have computers of different ages, different hardware specifications, and different software specifications. If paying a few hours overtime is too expensive, they can let employees telecommute for a half-day when they test from home.

Or, if even that's too much of a strain on their thinly stretched resources, they can use Lammnia as a 24/7 test environment and _ACTUALLY ADDRESS ISSUES BROUGHT UP THERE_. No financial change other than the Lamma
hardware doesn't get switched off.

Finally, to keep the same old bugs from returning over and over again, they can invest in version control software. If licensed software is too expensive for them, there are many fine free options.

[RumbIe]

Classic responses. My reading skills are at least at a 5th grade level so I think it's fair to say that while you write one thing I can interpret what you're really saying. Kind of like: "I'm not an expert, but let me tell you how I'm an expert." "I'm not defending Turbine and I can agree that there are issues, but let me defend Turbine and tell you that the issues are on your end."

It's what happens every time one of these threads come up. You get:

- It's your setup/PC/Internet/Whatever - This is quite possibly the best argument and truly legitimate. Once however some vetting has been done to determine it is likely not the case then let's move on.

- I'm an expert. Let me tell you why you're wrong and don't know what you're talking about. Sure. This is fair. I'll grant that you may know more than I on the subject. Doesn't mean it's not happening because unless YOU work at Turbine "You don't know anything John Snow"

- Stop Stamping your feet and whining - Yes. I am jumping up and down like Yosemite Sam right now. Every time someone brings up lag the must be in a rage state as opposed to a rational state trying to figure out what is going on and hoping someone listens to fix it because they enjoy playing

- Go outside and do something - Sure. I'm glued to my monitor 24x7. I never do anything else. I'm an uber gamer living in a basement. Or am I someone that golfs 3-5 days a week, skis about 30-40 days a season, camps, hikes, jogs and sill manages to get in a full time job. Not a ton of time for gaming so when I do play I like it to work. Usually I'm stepping away from a project to relax from that a bit or let the table saw blade cool down.

- You feel entitled - Not really. I mean to some degree I think a product should work, but I get what I pay for. I actually have less an issue with bugs. Mistakes happen and there is a lot going on. If the X, Y, Z isn't working I play an alt or run a different quest lineup for a bit until it is.Usually I get sucked down that path for a bit and forget about it. Spent months on an assassin and had no idea how fun t was. At least I'm playing. Lag and performance issues though are another thing. Those effect quality of play and quality of my free time. I'm still here though and still buying points because I don't think it's egregious yet, but some days it's borderline. I'd like to continue playing the game I enjoy so if there is something Turbine can be doing then I bring it up.

Anyways let's deflect the responsibility away from Turbine some more. You all have setups that work fine and you're happy. If mine was working great/adequately I'd probably think the other guy was telling me the sky was falling and dismiss it outright. So my idea of them testing user rigs is a bad idea? Fine. Got a better one? Mr. Expert. How would you address the constant stream of posts about lag issues? In your intimate knowledge of how electricity works (I think you listed that as a qualification) please give Turbine some ideas on how to fix it. Or should we all go buy new PCs? Change ISPs? Go play outside? What's your solution? If you feel one isn't needed then go start your own thread to talk about how great your connection and performance is. Don't hijack mine.

[grandeibra]

Once however some vetting has been done to determine it is likely not the case

I agree. But the vetting you have listed does not come close to actually being vetting. As stated above - local lag can cause the other 11 members to get stuck as well. So unless you (like my guild used to do) log off one person at a time and see if the lag is released, you haven't really vetted. And even if you did do just that there may be other factors unknown to me and you that caused the lag.

[RumbIe]

Fair enough. I agree and have seen when one person causes that kind of lag. Then they log off and we are all better again. No idea what has that kind of drag on the rest of us. Is that common in MMORPGs for that to happen? Played quite a few pre-DDO. Is it how dungeons/instances are programmed/allocated/whatever? Perhaps there is the root of the issue. Maybe the lag caused in an instance isn't the cause of any one single individual or rather the individual experiencing lag, but a collection of multiple people causing the issue. Separately they might not notice it, but in a group it drags enough. Then the person causing it the most drops off and clears it up some.

In any case my thread title stands true for this last Monday maintenance I guess. Since then now the time it takes me to zone into instances is ridiculous. I can go downstairs and grab a drink of water and come back. I know it's not happening to all, but a fair number of people I have played with or spoken with. Pre-maintenance I zoned fairly quickly unless I had been playing for a while and had the memory growth in the app to where I'm at 1.2-1.6 GB. Again usually after playing over 2 hours. Not even switching toons. The game footprint and awesonium processes just grow and grow until I get serious lag. However right from log in the zoning lag began. I changed nothing on my PC (literally. Hadn't touched it or gone to any other site apart from DDO.COM), but it was immediately after the "maintenance". As such I will assume it was something they did so I'll say thanks. Just more drag on my playing. Well done.