DC Based Casters - bards and sorcs

[Arcanegrin]

I'm curious about DC based casters other then wizards.

How high can sorcs get their mass holds and FoD with the new exalted angel destiny?

If bards get +4 dc and +4 cha as cap from core enhancements (currently under discussion in official turbine discussions) would they be viable end game CC (without counting fascinate)?

[Enoach]

Sorcerers can get just as high a charisma as a wizard can get their Int

However, two races Drow and Morninglord are the only ones that can start Int at 20 and have access to Racial enhancements. Drow are the only race that can start at 20 Charisma and have Charisma Racial Enhancements.

Where the Wizard pulls away is in Feat availability as well as the Enhancement Trees allowing them more flexibility in multiple schools. Where doing that with a Sorcerer would mean possibly giving up some DPS related feats. The other aspect is Sorcerer Trees currently limited to Evocation/Conjuration Schools and the Wizard Trees are open to all Schools depending on choices.

The Bard on the other hand can also get it's base caster stat to the same level as a Wizard, where it currently falls behind is that Heighten is maxed out at Spell Level 6 vs. the Wizard/Sorcerer 9. But based on some of the changes in the Enhancements as it concerns Bards it might not be a +- 3 DC difference.

When the Shroud first came out I was running a DC focused Sorcerer and my DCs were in line for FoD with Wizards of the time, with the Enhancement pass that has occurred since that time, I believe it is possible to build for this, but it may require the use of the SP pool to utilize more Debuffs to maintain the same effectiveness as the Wizard at the Upper Epic Levels. A Bard really is not that far behind.

I would imagine that if they cannot get the same DCs as a wizard (all things being equal such as Past Lives/Gear/Caster Stat) that a bard would only be +-3 DC at most for Spells, but will also still have their Songs as a standby which will have a much higher DC.

[Vellrad]

Right now, -3 heighten is partially mitigated by +3 DC as t5 in spellsinger.

There's +1 DC somewhere lower, but I don't remember how much enhant wizards can get from archmage.

After all, in enchant I thing wizard and bard are at similiard DCs, maybe one got 1-2 points higher or lower.

[Andoris]

Here are the Sorc Calcs:

Well, lets see what we can get to....
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Max [Sustainable] Charisma breakdown: 80* -- (20 base +6 tome* +7 level ups +8 enh + 11 item +3 Insight +1 exceptional +1 litany + 6 destinies +3 Twists^ +1 epic completionist twist* +2 yugo +2 ship +3 epic feats +2 completionist* + 2 store pot* +2 Angelic Presence)

Most people will not be completionists, be epic completionist, or be willing to continually shell out TP for store pots. Also you need one twist slot for spell DCs, so for normal purposes I consider the max Charisma to be 74

*^Max [Sustainable] Spell DC's breakdown assuming 74 cha (add +1 DC if completionist, +1 DC more if you like chugging store pots)

Please note that it is not possible to have max DC's in all spheres, the below calcs are only present to show what is possible.

Necromancy: 70 Sorc (10 base + 9 spell level + 32 cha mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +3 Magister + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +3 Transcendent Magic)

Enchantment: 73 Sorc (10 base + 9 spell level + 32 cha mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life + 1 bard past life + 1 enchantment lore +3 Magister + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment (exceptional) +1 morale [ship] +3 Transcendent Magic)

Conj and Evocation: 76 Sorc (10 base + 9 spell level + 32 cha mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +3 Magister +2 Precise Casting +3 Cleric/Sorc PL + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 ship +3 Transcendent Magic)

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If I get some time later I'll run the bard numbers, but at quick glance, bards should be able to compete with Wizards in Enchantment or Evocation (but not both) if they really push it. I'll try to get the calcs for bards up later tonight.

For the latest Wizard DC's, check the PM guide in my sig.

EDIT: Updated to assume +6 Cha tome (puts it on parity with the bard calcs)

[Andoris]

Found my old calc on bards (saving me a bunch of time) and edited them for the use of Exalted Angel over Fate singer:

Max (reasonable) Sustainable Charisma: 74 (20 drow + 2 racial tree + 2 spell singer tree + 2 warchanter tree +4 capstone + 7 level ups + 6 tome + 3 insight + 1 enchantment +11 item + 1 litany + 2 inspire excellence + 6 ED ability increases + 2 angelic presence +1 epic feat + 2 ship + 2 yugo)

Add +2 for completionist (however I will calculate based on a a 74 cha)

Evocation DC (sound burst): 80 (10 base + 6 spell level +4 SS cores + 32 cha + 1 wiz pl + 3 sorc pl + 3 feats + 6 item + 2 augment crystal +1 unique +1 profane +1 guild + 3 Evo Specialist + 2 precise casting + 1 Marigold Crown + 1 Spell song trance +3 trans magic)

Enchantment DC: 78 (10 base + 6 spell level +4 SS cores + 32 cha + 1 wiz pl + 1 bard pl + 3 feats + 6 item + 2 augment crystal +1 Unique +1 profane + 3 Enchantment Specialist + 1 Marigold Crown + 1 Spell song trance + 2 Prodigy +1 Enchant lore +3 trans magic)

Note that the you only have room for one of the epic spell focus feats, one +6 item, and marigold crown and [school] specialist is mutually exclusive. so you need to chose one school to max and the other will be -6 DC.

The biggest issue is fitting in all the feats in to really blast the DC's to the sky.

Edit: Fixed bad math and updated for U22 item/abilities

[Arcanegrin]

Found my old calc on bards (saving me a bunch of time):



The Changes that are currently being proposed will add +4 from core abilities and +1 from capstone change (+2 cha). That gives us a 73 evo dc or a 74 enchant DC (need to be in fate singer). You can add some DC by using a +6 tome, completionist and epic completionist; however, it is much more likely that if you had those points you would instead invest more in a balanced toon (but you an add +2 dc if you really want).

The Bard max DC build works, but it is a very heavy investment.

Interesting, thanks for posting it here! I was looking around in the pale master thread (very helpful for my current pale master!!!) but must have missed that page. These numbers make it much easier to compare.

I'm likely wrong but is that bard enchant dc missing : + 6 item (from 5) +1 unique +1 profane +1 ship +3 transcendent (is this better then fatesinger?)

If that's right then enchant could go to 78 dc ignoring transcendental magic.

[maddmatt70]

Found my old calc on bards (saving me a bunch of time):



The Changes that are currently being proposed will add +4 from core abilities and +1 from capstone change (+2 cha). That gives us a 73 evo dc or a 74 enchant DC (need to be in fate singer). You can add some DC by using a +6 tome, completionist and epic completionist; however, it is much more likely that if you had those points you would instead invest more in a balanced toon (but you an add +2 dc if you really want)..

A bard takes a caster level hit in Exalted Angel, but they can get the same enchantment DC and a higher evocation dc then Fatesinger in Exalted Angel. Exalted Angel does have better nukes and nice soundburst slas as well.

[Andoris]

Interesting, thanks for posting it here! I was looking around in the pale master thread (very helpful for my current pale master!!!) but must have missed that page. These numbers make it much easier to compare.

I'm likely wrong but is that bard enchant dc missing : + 6 item (from 5) +1 unique +1 profane +1 ship +3 transcendent (is this better then fatesinger?)

If that's right then enchant could go to 78 dc ignoring transcendental magic.

You are correct in the corrections.. my prior calcs were pre-thunderforged (I blame the scotch for missing that, sorry).

Fate signer is still better (due to the cha boosts and effective caster level), but you can add +3 to the numbers above.

[maddong]

For wizard enchant wouldn't it be:
capstone +2 int
lich +2 int
spell focus tier 4/5 +2 dc

For bard enchant it would be:
capstone +4 cha
spell singer cores +4 (essentially +1 since heighten caps at level 6)
marigold crown +1 dc
prodigy +2 dc

So the bard would have 2 higher enchant DC than the wizard before ED and can benefit from transcendental magic with charisma benefits in exalted angel.

Or am I missing something?

[Arcanegrin]

For wizard enchant wouldn't it be:
capstone +2 int
lich +2 int
spell focus tier 4/5 +2 dc

For bard enchant it would be:
capstone +4 cha
spell singer cores +4 (essentially +1 since heighten caps at level 6)
marigold crown +1 dc
prodigy +2 dc

So the bard would have 2 higher enchant DC than the wizard before ED and can benefit from transcendental magic with charisma benefits in exalted angel.

Or am I missing something?

It just says "Bard Spell Caster DC" for new bard cores, wouldn't that directly stack?

...

As to a comparison between Fatesinger and Exalted angel doesn't Fatesinger only get a +3 cha boost from the entire tree? I must be missing something about why it's better then a static +3 dc.

Also why no +1 ship buff to dc?

[Andoris]

It just says "Bard Spell Caster DC" for new bard cores, wouldn't that directly stack?

...

As to a comparison between Fatesinger and Exalted angel doesn't Fatesinger only get a +3 cha boost from the entire tree? I must be missing something about why it's better then a static +3 dc.

Also why no +1 ship buff to dc?

Your missing the +2 caster level from the fatesigner cores

[SirValentine]

As to a comparison between Fatesinger and Exalted angel doesn't Fatesinger only get a +3 cha boost from the entire tree? I must be missing something about why it's better then a static +3 dc.

Certainly Fatesinger gets caster level boosts that Angel doesn't, but strictly for DC, isn't Angel better? I must be missing where Fatesinger even manages to tie, let alone beat, the +7 to DC a Cha casters can get from Angel. 6 Cha up right side, of course, and 2 Cha Angelic Presence, +3 DC Transcendental Magic.

[Andoris]

Certainly Fatesinger gets caster level boosts that Angel doesn't, but strictly for DC, isn't Angel better? I must be missing where Fatesinger even manages to tie, let alone beat, the +7 to DC a Cha casters can get from Angel. 6 Cha up right side, of course, and 2 Cha Angelic Presence, +3 DC Transcendental Magic.

Now that I am awake lets look at this.

Fatesinger: Increase of 6 DC for enchantment (4 for everything else)
Cha = 8 (+6 Cha up the right side + 1 glitter of fame + 1 Echos ) -- There is also the ablity to boost cha by 4 for 20 seconds, but that is too short imo to include in calculations.
Spell DCs = +2 for Enchantment (Majesty increases the spell level by 2, which as long as you have heighten, should increase the DC by 2 as well)

Exalted Angel: Increase of 7 DC
Cha = 8 (+6 cha up the right side + 2 Angelic Presence)
DCs = +3 Transcendental

So your right, Exalted now beats out Fatesinger -- that will teach me to post DC calcs when I am tired and had a few cocktails. Sorry for the bad math above.

I'll edit the post, good catch.

[Andoris]

Just to give a side by side comparison I have included the Wizard calcs:

Max [Sustainable] Intelligence breakdown: 82* -- (20 base +6 tome* +7 level ups +8 enh + 11 item +3 Insight +1 exceptional +1 litany + 6 destinies +3 Twists +1 epic completionist twist* +4 lich +2 yugo +2 ship +3 epic feats +2 completionist* + 2 store pot*). Unstainable max int = 90 (+3 profane (cookies) +3 House D pots +2 Bard)

Most people will not be completionists, have a +6 int tome and be epic completionist, or be willing to continually shell out for store pots, so for normal purposes I consider the max intelligence to be 76

Max [Sustainable] Spell DC's breakdown assuming 76 int (add +1 if completionist, add +1 if you have a +6 int tome and epic completionist, add +1 more if you like chugging store pots)

Please note that it is not possible to have max DC's in all spheres, the below calcs are only present to show what is possible. I would recommend either Necromany or Enchantment to be your primary and chose the other for your secondary (68 necro / 63 enchant or 67 enchant / 64 necro)

Necromancy: 72 (10 base + 9 spell level + 33 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +1 Lich +1 Necro focus +1 Archmage +3 Magister + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 Guild)

Enchantment: 73 (10 base + 9 spell level + 31 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life + 1 bard past life + 1 enchantment lore +2 Vampire Form +2 Archmage +3 Magister + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment (exceptional) +1 Guild)

Illusion: 73 (10 base + 9 spell level + 33 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +1 Archmage +3 Magister +3 Draconic Presence (PK only) +1 Guild + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment)

Conj and Evocation: 74 (10 base + 9 spell level + 32 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +1 Archmage +3 Magister +2 Precise Casting +3 Cleric/Sorc PL + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 Guild )

Transmutation: 70 (10 base + 9 spell level + 33 int mod + 1 spell focus + 1 greater focus + 1 wiz past life +1 Archmage +3 Magister +1 ship + 6 item +1 unique +1 profane +2 augment +1 Guild)

So currently the comparison looks like this when controlled for similar conditions (No completionist, epic completionist, or store pots/cookies/House D)

Cleric Calcs derived from SirValentine's excellent write up on Divine DC casting

Necro: Wizard=72 --- Sorc=71 --- Bard=73 --- Cleric=72
Enchant: Wizard=73 --- Sorc=73 --- Bard=78 --- Cleric=71
Evocation: Wizard=74 --- Sorc=76 --- Bard=80 --- Cleric=75
Conjuration: Wizard=74 --- Sorc=76 --- Bard=79 --- Cleric=75

Due to feats it is easiest for the wizard to hit these DC's, but if you really focused on them Bard and Sorc can outclass a wizard's DC's.

[Wipey]

Not sure if you count 6 tomes and Litany as standard but :
My wizzy is at 72 Necro now ( int, int, Echoes ), only Yugo, no 6 tome or Litany so it should be 73 if I had those.
Cleric is also higher, 74 ( evo evo Wis twist from Fury ), no Litany, alchemical or 6 tome so someone with those things is at 76. Evocation that is.

Regarding Bards, i like how Drpeppero breakdown in Spellsinger thread has been ignored hehe.
Bard DCs with proposed changes are going to be insane. For Enchant - school that works almost no fail at 60 s nonetheless . That's a result of "feedback" such as " my maxed 50 dc bard/sorc/wizard/insert class doesn't work".

[SirValentine]

Fatesinger: Increase of 6.5 DC for enchantment (4.5 for everything else)
Cha = 9 (+6 Cha up the right side + 1 glitter of fame + 1 Echos (Draconic) + 1 Echos (Divine))

Ah, OK. I hadn't tested that; for some reason I had assumed you could only have 1 Echoes running at once.

Spell DCs = +2 for Enchantment (Majesty increases the spell level by 2, which as long as you have heighten, should increase the DC by 2 as well)

Really? If that works, I'd think it was a bug. I mean, I know it works if you don't have access to your highest level spells due to lack of class levels (which is also probably a bug, but not what I'm talking about here), but granting more DC when you already have access to your highest spell level? Have you tested this? The other caster level increases you get from EDs don't give extra DC.

[Andoris]

Ah, OK. I hadn't tested that; for some reason I had assumed you could only have 1 Echoes running at once.



Really? If that works, I'd think it was a bug. I mean, I know it works if you don't have access to your highest level spells due to lack of class levels (which is also probably a bug, but not what I'm talking about here), but granting more DC when you already have access to your highest spell level? Have you tested this? The other caster level increases you get from EDs don't give extra DC.

Majesty boosts the spell level nit the caster level. As bards only have 6th Level spells, so majesty bumps that to lvl 8 for an effective 2 DC (assuming you have heighten) .

I can try to get someone to test tonight , but that is the way it should work. Not that it is a big deal though as EA is. 5 DC better in any case.

[SirValentine]

Majesty boosts the spell level nit the caster level. As bards only have 6th Level spells, so majesty bumps that to lvl 8

Interesting. I never even considered that might be what it did...I just figured it was yet another poorly-written caster level boost. :-)

[Andoris]

Not sure if you count 6 tomes and Litany as standard but :
My wizzy is at 72 Necro now ( int, int, Echoes ), only Yugo, no 6 tome or Litany so it should be 73 if I had those.
Cleric is also higher, 74 ( evo evo Wis twist from Fury ), no Litany, alchemical or 6 tome so someone with those things is at 76. Evocation that is.
.

My wizard is currently in the middle of a TR atm so I cant check in game. However, I double checked my math and keep coming up with 72 DC assuming a 76 into and no epic focus (feats being used for int) .

What is you into score? Did you take epic spell focus necro?

[SirValentine]

Majesty boosts the spell level nit the caster level.

Also:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html