Eldritch Knight

[autochthon]

Ohh, you meant opening it up to beyond touch spells. That would be cool, might need a restriction on repair/cure spells though, or they'd just never die until sp ran out. Adding a delayed fireball or a black dragon bolt to a melee attack would definitely be pretty sweet though, and really fits into the who EK thing.

Cool

Oh I guess I should have said "Spells you quicken wit ha target other than self" huh? Though admittedly "never dying until SP runs out" would mean your SP runs out extremely fast :P

Edit: As an aside, my proposal "plays nice" with DC spells if you want to. The -2 penalty isn't crippling and you can choose to pump CHA+STR as a combo to have DCs on certain save spells theoretically high enough to be useful in a pure build. Stuff like WotB or Power Word: Kill has a good chance of landing even with the -2 to DCs from TT.

[Tom116]

Oh I guess I should have said "Spells you quicken wit ha target other than self" huh? Though admittedly "never dying until SP runs out" would mean your SP runs out extremely fast :P

Edit: As an aside, my proposal "plays nice" with DC spells if you want to. The -2 penalty isn't crippling and you can choose to pump CHA+STR as a combo to have DCs on certain save spells theoretically high enough to be useful in a pure build. Stuff like WotB or Power Word: Kill has a good chance of landing even with the -2 to DCs from TT.

That sounds more balance lol
True, at least in epics.

Yeah, that would be neat. For the record though, PWK has no save except in pvp. Still fine since it has like a 3 minute cd or something though
Multiclasses would probably appreciate the ability too, even with not enough wiz/sorc to get a great DC on the spells there are no save spells that are good, like Eladar's or Niac's dots or a solid fog coming out of the weapon. It's reminding me a lot of a Spellsword character I was planning for pnp a few years ago.

[autochthon]

That sounds more balance lol
True, at least in epics.

Yeah, that would be neat. For the record though, PWK has no save except in pvp. Still fine since it has like a 3 minute cd or something though
Multiclasses would probably appreciate the ability too, even with not enough wiz/sorc to get a great DC on the spells there are no save spells that are good, like Eladar's or Niac's dots or a solid fog coming out of the weapon. It's reminding me a lot of a Spellsword character I was planning for pnp a few years ago.

Alternative alternative: "Spells you quicken that are not healing or repair spells are now instant"

[Tom116]

Alternative alternative: "Spells you quicken that are not healing or repair spells are now instant"

Also would be handy, but I think I like the flavor of spells being cast with a melee hit more. Might be a lot easier on the devs to do that though haha

[autochthon]

Also would be handy, but I think I like the flavor of spells being cast with a melee hit more. Might be a lot easier on the devs to do that though haha

They're functionally identical. "Cast instantly" and "cast while attacking" are essentially two ways to the same thing (Casting lo longer interrupts attacking). Regardless of how it's worded you're casting at things you're smacking :P

[Tom116]

They're functionally identical. "Cast instantly" and "cast while attacking" are essentially two ways to the same thing (Casting lo longer interrupts attacking). Regardless of how it's worded you're casting at things you're smacking :P

I guess that's true, but if it's cast while attacking it's limited to attack speed or a small cooldown on the ability. Wouldn't want people to be able to spam something that fast or people could just unload their sp bar at a boss almost instantly so the boss wouldn't have a chance to be an actual threat. Would be better to have a 2 or 3 second cd on the instant quicken, like a cleave sort of idea

[autochthon]

I guess that's true, but if it's cast while attacking it's limited to attack speed or a small cooldown on the ability. Wouldn't want people to be able to spam something that fast or people could just unload their sp bar at a boss almost instantly so the boss wouldn't have a chance to be an actual threat. Would be better to have a 2 or 3 second cd on the instant quicken, like a cleave sort of idea

You're still limited to how fast you can cast in the first place (normal CDs would be enforced so no spamming those power words). Sure you could dump all your spells at once but casters can more or less already do that. They just can't do it while attacking. Worst case scenario you add a 1s global spell CD to the effect, just to enforce not getting more than one spell per attack.

Edit: in reality RAI is to cast spells at the "normal" rate just without needing to breaqk attack sequence

[Tom116]

You're still limited to how fast you can cast in the first place (normal CDs would be enforced so no spamming those power words). Sure you could dump all your spells at once but casters can more or less already do that. They just can't do it while attacking. Worst case scenario you add a 1s global spell CD to the effect, just to enforce not getting more than one spell per attack.

With normal cooldowns enforced, they are about the same thing, yeah. I still would say it fits in more with the tree by attaching it to a melee attack though, since it's an eldritch knight, not some super-alacrity caster

Responding to your edit: True, but the attack sequence staying unbroken gives a higher melee attack speed (and attack bonus, but with your to-hit and damage being the same stat that shouldn't be a big issue) so still good to have it on melee attacks

[autochthon]

With normal cooldowns enforced, they are about the same thing, yeah. I still would say it fits in more with the tree by attaching it to a melee attack though, since it's an eldritch knight, not some super-alacrity caster

Here I'll give you two mechanical examples:

1) Your attacks do not interrupt your spellcasting
2) Your spells cast instantly (Global CD equal to cast time)

These both do exactly the same thing, and are both mechanically RAI for my suggestion. The former is likely harder to code than the latter, if only because the former is "situational". Either way you apply" your spells by attacking. Either way normal per-spell CD is in effect, either way you're basically casting instantly (you're quickened meaning you ignore concentration, and you're able to take action during the casting). They're mechanically identical, since the former would have to communicate to you the fact that you're still casting (by enforcing a CD on spells) anyway.

Both behave the same outside of melee attacking (normal time between casts) with the latter basically getting mobile spellcasting for "free". But that's a minor issue.

In other words the actual TEXT on the ability can say whatever it wants, because the mechanical effects will be the same either way. The third option is "spellcasting no longer has an animation" and displaying the cast timer as a CD on spells (also mechanically identical to the two above for all practical purposes). And remember this all happens ONLY during Alchemic Quickening. So really it's all fluff differences no mechanical ones.

[Tom116]

Here I'll give you two mechanical examples:

1) Your attacks do not interrupt your spellcasting
2) Your spells cast instantly (Global CD equal to cast time)

These both do exactly the same thing, and are both mechanically RAI for my suggestion. The former is likely harder to code than the latter, if only because the former is "situational". Either way you apply" your spells by attacking. Either way normal per-spell CD is in effect, either way you're basically casting instantly (you're quickened meaning you ignore concentration, and you're able to take action during the casting). They're mechanically identical, since the former would have to communicate to you the fact that you're still casting (by enforcing a CD on spells) anyway.

Both behave the same outside of melee attacking (normal time between casts) with the latter basically getting mobile spellcasting for "free". But that's a minor issue.

In other words the actual TEXT on the ability can say whatever it wants, because the mechanical effects will be the same either way. The third option is "spellcasting no longer has an animation" and displaying the cast timer as a CD on spells (also mechanically identical to the two above for all practical purposes). And remember this all happens ONLY during Alchemic Quickening. So really it's all fluff differences no mechanical ones.

Oh, okay. I see what you mean now, that works. I misinterpreted what you had said, my bad. Yeah, mobile spellcasting isn't exactly the top picked feat anyways, especially with jump casting.

[autochthon]

Mobile spellcasting is rather boring is the problem :P

[Tom116]

Mobile spellcasting is rather boring is the problem :P

The fact that it requires 13 dex and combat casting doesn't help it's case, and being able to jump at full speed while casting kinda wrecks it too

[autochthon]

Yah that is most certainly not helping :P I'd say disable jump while casting.

Personally I don;t think Mobile Spellcaster has a place in DDO anyway.

[Tom116]

Yah that is most certainly not helping :P I'd say disable jump while casting.

Personally I don;t think Mobile Spellcaster has a place in DDO anyway.

Lol I didn't mean disable jump while casting, just meant it was another reason not to take the feat. Yeah, it isn't really worth taking the feat

[autochthon]

Anyway back to topic. I feel sad that an EK build has essentially ignored the offensive T5s.

[Failedlegend]

It's pretty clear that EK was modeled after Spellsword/Duskblade looking at the core

I'd like to reiterate that focusing on a single gish sub-type would be a mistake

Tier 1

Improved Mage Armor (1, 3): Toggle, gain the effects of Mage Armor. Additionally increase armor by 7/14/20% when affected by mage armor
Reasoning: A slight buff to the the AC for EK. Mostly just to be a bit tankier to fit the total theme. Toggle effect fixes the need for duration maintenance.

Improved Shield (1, 3):Requires Improved Mage Armor Toggle, gain the effect of shield. While the shield spell is affecting you increase PRR (and MRR) by 3/7/10%
Reasoning: Same as above. Fits the theme. Change to % bonus linearizes the total defensive gain from the effect. Makes it more attractive as a level splash, but *shrug*

I'm fine with an increase in the effectiveness of these but they should NOT function if your wearing armor since these spells NEVER have.

As such Light & Medium prof should be put here as multi-selectors (along with them granting Twilight and Greater Twilight respectively)

Battlemage (1,3): 2/4/6 Concentration, Intimidate, Spellcraft
Reasoning: Slight buff to make tiering in less painful.

This I can't agree with since every other skill increase enhancement is +1/2/3

Wand and Scroll Mastery: Removed
Reaosning: Thematically you're relying on force of arms aided by magic. W+S mastery is a bit of a relic in that regard. Wizard has other options, Sorcerer loses out. However Sorc has a warmage tree taht may get pitched by the player council for a future update. I'd rather see this gone and something more thematic take its place either way.

I agree with your reasoning, especially since I've never agreed with it's inclusion, it was added simply to give Sorcs W+S Mastery but frankly imo Wizards should be better at using magical items, tomes,etc. than Sorcs so it made sense they didn't have it

Multiselector (Shield Striking, Arcane Duelist, Eldritch Juggernaut) (1,3)
Eldritch Shield Striking: 10/20/30% to strike with shield
Arcane Duelist: When using an Orb or nothing in off hand increase Spellsword damage by 1d6/2d6/3d6
Eldritch Juggernaut: When wielding a two handed weapon gain 10/20/30% glancing blow damage. Increase glancing blows procrate by 2/4/6%

Needs something for TWF

Armor Mastery (2,2): Gain Proficiency in Medium/Heavy armor and 5/10% ASF. Requires Light armor Mastery
Reasoning: This lets a T4 EK choose to go all the way on armor if they do a pure class build. The 5% additional potential ASF isn't quite enough to wear heavy armors effectively without a supporting race. At leats not while using a shield with ASF

Heavy armor prof should be Core 18, Core 20 or Tier 5

Force Master (1,3): Requires Force Mage with matching rank. SLA Force Missiles 12/8/4 SP, 16s/10s/4s CD,
Passive +2% Force Crit @Rank 3
Reasoning: The damage on force missiles is relatively balanced overall and this spell won;t break anything too badly. Provides an EK with some additional ranged options as above. I happen to like the thematics. Also see below for proposed core changes.

Force Mage (1,3): Replaces W+S Mastery, SLA Magic Missile, 8/5/2SP 12/8/4 CD @Rank 3 +2% Force Crit
Reasoning: This one might be a little controversial but it provides a "cheap" offensive spell that doesn't get too crazy and is in line with the overall "force" theme. The upside is that MM is DC agnostic.

These are just kinda meh

Tenser's Transcendance (1,1): Replaces Transformation. Passively gain the effect of Tenser's Transformation, Passively increse the effect of Alchemical Bonuses on you by +2
Reasoning: This is a straight up buff. As one of the few T5 abilities with a direct drawback it feels rather lacklustre. The bonus alchemical effect value makes it more tempting and the permanence makes it a choice between having and not (your other option is an Epic Destiny).

I'd rather see the penalties removed instead of the benefits increased.

Multiselector (Eldritch Bulwark, Eldritch Assault) (2,1): Requires T4 Multiselector
Eldritch Bulwark: Every 6 seconds twice your shields enhancement bonus as temporary HP
Eldritch Assault: Whenever you doublestrike gain +3 Attack power (+3% attack damage) and Spellpower for 6 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times, 1s cooldown.
Reasoning: Choice between a strong defensive bonus or a solid offensive bonus.

Nice idea

Eldritch Tempest (2, 3): Activate: Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +(1/2/3)[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 1 second. (Activation Cost: 50/30/10 Spell points. Cooldown: 60/40/20 seconds)
If any foes are struck by Eldritch Tempest, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Force damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional force damage is affected by your spell power. This ability shares a cooldown with Great Cleave
Passive: +1/2/3% Doublestrike

Between adding the DS and the cooldown reductions in the cores this becomes much more compelling.

Level 6 Blitz: (Multiselector)Action Boosts
Eldritch Blitz: Gain +1 Force Spellpower for each point spent in Eldritch Knight for 20s
Martial Blitz: Gain +1 Attack Power (+1% attack damage) for each point spent in eldritch Knight for 20s

I hate action boosts, I don't mind seeing them in a tree because I can ignore them but as a core I can't skip it.

Level 12 Spellsword Mastery: Choose an Element you didn't choose at level 3

The spellsword core should just grant all 4 elements (like how the monk feat grants all 4 stances) spellsword mastery should do something like allow two toggles at once or just remove or at least reduce the cost.

That said I really think the spellswords should either reduce your max/current SP by x% or just have an initial cost like Arty weapon buffs or Palemaster forms....than SS Mastery could easily reduce these costs.

Level 18 Alchemic Quickening:
Toggle: While active your spells are quickened for an additional 5 spell ponts. (Normally quickening is +10 SP). You may cast spells quickened this way while attacking.

Whilst this is a pretty cool idea I don't really think it's possible, IF it is possible I'd definately say this would require an empty off-hand (or a spellcasting implement ie.Orb), good candidate for a multi-selector

ie.

Alchemic Quickening: Can simultaneously cast and auto-attack if your off-hand is empty or holding an Orb
Master Armored Mage: Grant Heavy Armor Prof, ASF reduction
Duskblade: Grants GTHF Feat
Arcane Tornado: Grants GTWF Feat

Eldritch Blade
Your Eldritch Strike now grants you a Power Charge. When you have 10 Power Charges, they are removed, and you gain Eldritch Power.
Eldritch Power: +10% melee damage, +25 Universal spellpower.

This is no where NEAR worthy of a capstone...I say drop the Eldritch Blade idea entirely

New Core 20

Arcane Conduit: Grants MT+IMT and you gain the ability to create an torrent of pure force around yourself damaging all your enemies (approx AOE is haste AOE)

Arcane Torrent SLA
Duration: 30 seconds
SP Cost: 50
Cooldown: 2 Minutes (Sorc 70 secs)
Metamagics: Empower, Enlarge, Eschew, Maximize, Quicken
Target: Self, AOE
Save: Partial (No save vs. damage)
Description: Deals XdX Force damage per caster level/x every 2 secs, If the target fails its Str or Dex check, it will be knocked prone until it saves. (this check is made only once at the initial casting)

Passive:
+25 Force Spellpower
+2 Cha/Int
-2s CD Eldritch Strike
-5s CD Eldritch Tempest
Eldritch Strike and Eldritch Tempest SP cost reduced by 5

[autochthon]

I'd like to reiterate that focusing on a single gish sub-type would be a mistake

Hence why the multiselectors allow for two hand and orb.

I'm fine with an increase in the effectiveness of these but they should NOT function if your wearing armor since these spells NEVER have.

As such Light & Medium prof should be put here as multi-selectors (along with them granting Twilight and Greater Twilight respectively)

The bonuses provided by these enhancements already work with armour. I only recommended making them a bit better.

This I can't agree with since every other skill increase enhancement is +1/2/3

Meh. I don;t much care either way. EK already takes a hit to spellpower for being EK.

Needs something for TWF

I cannot think of any Gish type that has ever focused on TWF, as PnP never had "free" removal of somatics. Therefore it was left out.

Heavy armor prof should be Core 18, Core 20 or Tier 5

Don't see a compelling reason. Duskblade got proficiency in all armors by default, and you're already paying 4 points just to be able to get INTO heavy armor. Also enhancement slots are already at a premium. And if you multiclass you WILL multiclass into heavy armor (and have the ASF to wear it anyway).

These are just kinda meh

They provide an SLA to complement your buff spells. Mostly it gives you a "mage" option (and ties into Core 18)

I'd rather see the penalties removed instead of the benefits increased.

I prefer the DC penalty to not. It gives a clear trade (you play the build to use non-DC spells).

Between adding the DS and the cooldown reductions in the cores this becomes much more compelling.

That was the point.

I hate action boosts, I don't mind seeing them in a tree because I can ignore them but as a core I can't skip it.

Again the point. Plus you get a rather powerful set of passive bonuses (that CDR on eldritch strike is a big deal for DPS).

The spellsword core should just grant all 4 elements (like how the monk feat grants all 4 stances) spellsword mastery should do something like allow two toggles at once or just remove or at least reduce the cost.

I like having to choose. In reality if it were up to me I'd

A) Make it deal force damage ALWAYS
B) Cause it to deal "force/element" damage at mastery (gaining all the upsides of the element and no downsides)

But that's more narrow. I would recommend that spellswords be changed around a little depending on class anyway (Wizard would have access to negative energy for instance). But really forcing players to make a conscious choice is something that should be done nnot avoided. You can;t benefit from more than one on live anyway, and the swords aren;t the same as monk stances (where the stances are roughly unicversal the swords are very build dependent in terms of final effect).

That said I really think the spellswords should either reduce your max/current SP by x% or just have an initial cost like Arty weapon buffs or Palemaster forms....than SS Mastery could easily reduce these costs.

I like the mana cost in terms of making EK more attractive for Sorcerer than Wizard. However I could see them not having a cost at all since full DPS in EK would be reliant on a LOT of mana spent.

Whilst this is a pretty cool idea I don't really think it's possible, IF it is possible I'd definately say this would require an empty off-hand (or a spellcasting implement ie.Orb), good candidate for a multi-selector

You can cast spells with both hands filled in DDO. No need to say you can;t just because of an effect. This is highly thematic and emblematic of the core theme that EK is based on.

ie.

Alchemic Quickening: Can simultaneously cast and auto-attack if your off-hand is empty or holding an Orb
Master Armored Mage: Grant Heavy Armor Prof, ASF reduction
Duskblade: Grants GTHF Feat
Arcane Tornado: Grants GTWF Feat

"Pick one" where only one of the options is thematically appropriate is never a good pick one from a design transparency point. I maintain that the core effect is not broken, it's a DPS bonus on a class that is going to be very hard to properly gear for DPS (there are very few mixed phys/caster options among items and I doubt that will change). A level 18 caster EK is going to need all the help they can get if they want to do competitive DPS, since you have limited options. If you're really deadset on a multiselector put it in t5 as part of Tenser's Transcendence, instead of the alchemical bonus increase. And as I said before, I don't think heavy armor needs to be a part of cores because all your primary splashes either grant heavy armor or grant a reason to NOT wear heavy armor. Either way no need to make it a core, especially one so late in the game. By the time you got the option to select it.... Basically if it's an option it needs to be available EARLY not late. It would be like Occult Slayer not getting weapon bond until level 18.

This is no where NEAR worthy of a capstone...I say drop the Eldritch Blade idea entirely

New Core 20

Arcane Conduit: Grants MT+IMT and you gain the ability to create an torrent of pure force around yourself damaging all your enemies (approx AOE is haste AOE)

Arcane Torrent SLA
Duration: 30 seconds
SP Cost: 50
Cooldown: 2 Minutes (Sorc 70 secs)
Metamagics: Empower, Enlarge, Eschew, Maximize, Quicken
Target: Self, AOE
Save: Partial (No save vs. damage)
Description: Deals XdX Force damage per caster level/x every 2 secs, If the target fails its Str or Dex check, it will be knocked prone until it saves. (this check is made only once at the initial casting)

Passive:
+25 Force Spellpower
+2 Cha/Int
-2s CD Eldritch Strike
-5s CD Eldritch Tempest
Eldritch Strike and Eldritch Tempest SP cost reduced by 5

Ehhh I'd tweak the numbers rather than something entirely new. The build as envisioned is ALREADY using a lot of cooldowns. Note that I meant to include Eldritch Tempest in the proc potential, as well as the ability to stack it. That's a copypasta error.

The pitch I intended was:

Eldritch Blade
Your Eldritch Strike and Eldritch Tempest now grant you a Power Charge for each target hit. When you have 10 Power Charges, they are removed, and you gain a stack of Eldritch Power.
Eldritch Power: +10% melee damage (+10 Melee Power), +25 Universal spellpower.
Eldritch Power stacks up to 5 times and has a 30 second duration.

Or something along those lines for the stacks. You could maintain full stacks indefinitely. I'm pretty sure that qualifies for a capstone (I'm also pretty sure it's better than a number of others).

[Tom116]

Anyway back to topic. I feel sad that an EK build has essentially ignored the offensive T5s.

Yeah, it is too bad. Would have been more likely to take it if the tree was better for offense so I ended up just taking offensive stuff from the warforged tree instead