Warchanter Changes

[Shinjiteru]

First of all I am very happy that the tree doesn't look like what I would have guessed by reading the stuff in the player feedback thread. I like that it's still a melee tree which supports the classic warchanter style character (thf).
I don't mind if it has less melee dps than the swashbuckler but since you have auras it should be meaningfull enough to stay with the melee crowd.

Core Abilities

[*]5 AP, class level 3: Fighting Spirit: +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.

• Moved Weapon Training here (Martial Proficiencies)

Would move that to the next core level, unless you also want this as nice option for splashing 3 bard levels if your toons needs martial weapon prof.
Since Warchanters new auras suggest beeing in the melee crowd and bard not having that many HP and EE mobs dealing 200 dmg each hit, maybe increase the +10 HP to +20? Or would that be too strong because it's only the second core ability?

[*]20 AP, class level 12: Fighting Spirit: +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.

• Upgrade to +30 HP

I like this change

[*]30 AP, class level 18: Victory Song: Toggle: You have full Base Attack Bonus.

Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.

• Stretch goal: Make this a simple permanent, non-toggle ability.

Would it be too strong to give another additional 10 or 20 HP?

[*]41 AP, class level 20: Warmaster:

• +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
• When you Inspire Heroics, for 12 seconds both you and the targeted ally gain +5 Competence bonus to Attack, +5 Competence bonus to Damage, +25 Competence bonus to Physical Resistance and +50 Competence bonus to resist Acid, Cold, Electric, and Fire damage.
• NEW:
  
  • +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
  • When you Inspire Heroics, for 60 seconds both you and the targeted ally gain +5 Music bonus to Attack, +5 Music bonus to Damage, +20 Music bonus to Physical Resistance and +20 Music bonus to resist Acid, Cold, Electric, and Fire damage
  • 60 second cooldown

[/LIST]

Not sure what happend to the +2str of the current version. Since it's a capstone I would suggest to increase it to +20 HP and +2dmg on inspire courage.
Are these 60 secs duration affected by enhancements that increase song duration? Because I don't think something which forces you to sing every minute is good and fun. Although it is very strong. Maybe you just want us to use it in bossfights?
Personally I would even suggest to increase it to +4 dmg on inspire courage. Because it still doesn't make me think I would miss much if I would skip on this capstone. If I would go swashbuckler route I would miss out on evasion if I don't take the capstone/stay pure bard. I think some short time buffs are not as valueable as some weaker long time buffs.

Some other capstone ideas which might fit your vision of a buffing tree:
-Capstone doubles the speed of singing
-Capstone increases all song effects by 50/100%? (not completely sure if 100% would be OP)
-Beeing immun to every kind of CC and knockdown while singing. No enemy can make us stop sing our songs.
-Double the range of the aura effects you want to introduce.

Tier One

• Inspired Bravery: Inspire Courage grants +1/+2/+3 to Attack and saving throws vs. Fear.
  
  • Stretch goal: Improve?

Move it to a higher tier and don't give attack but a 2/4/6% increased chance of hitting a mob. Keep in mind that + attack is not scaling in higher levels with the changes to the AC and to-hit mechanics several updates ago. Before these changes this could have been +15% hit chance. Now it's probably less than 5% increased chance...
And maybe give immunity against fear instead of additional saves. Bards could buff GH or use Song of heroism anyways for the same effect. Yeah would be same effect on two different songs, but I don't see a problem there, we already have +attack on different songs.
But with the supposed changes it needs to be moved to a higher tier in the tree I'd say.

Tier Two

• Boast: (Song) Gain 10/20/30 temporary HP for 120 seconds. While you have these temporary HP you generate 50% extra threat and gain +1[W] weapon damage. 3rd rank: +1 Barbarian Rage use (if you have it).
  
  • New: Increase Temp HP, remove other aspects (leave +Rage use)
  • DPS is coming from other sources.

I am not a friend of temp hp, you would need to change temp hp to at least 100(probably better to increase to 200 when thinking about EE) to make me use this.
But temp HP which use a song... still think that would only be an emergency use if all healing possibilies are on cooldown.
Would probably prefer some boost to healing or melee dps instead of some temp hp.

• Words of Encouragement: When you Inspire Courage, allies gain +10/20/30 temporary HP for one minute. +5/10/15 Positive Spellpower
  
  • Remove pre-req from Boast

I don't get the sense of 10-30 temp hp if mobs are hitting for 150-200 in endgame. When thinking about encouragement... maybe add universal spellpower to inspire courage and 5% stacking attack speed bonus?
Apart from that I would only take it for the 5/15/15 positive spellpower. If that's the main reason behind the enhanement and the temp hp shall only be a nice flavor addition it seems to be right atm.

[*]NEW: Arcane Shield Chant: Nearby allies gain +5 Music bonus to Energy Resistance.

• Always on aura

[*]Iced Edges: While Gathering Cold in a Skaldic Rage, when you score a critical hit you gain Breath of Frost. This can trigger up to once every 12/9/6 seconds. \\n\\nBreath of Frost: Your attacks deal +1d6 cold damage for three seconds.

• NEW: Toggle: Your melee and ranged attacks deal 1d3/1d4/1d6 extra Cold Damage.
• Comparable to Arcane Archer stances (but both Ranged and Melee).

[*]Gathering Cold: Toggle: Gain a +1/+2/+3 energy Resistance vs. Cold. When enemies deal you cold damage, you have a 20/40/60% chance to absorb some of that energy and gain Armor of Frost. Armor of Frost: You gain +1 stacking Cold Resistance and +1 stacking AC that lasts for 12 seconds. This effect can stack up to 5 times.

• Cut completely

[*]Action Boost: Sprint: Activate this ability to receive a 35/40/50% Action Boost bonus to running speed for 20 seconds.[/LIST]

Like all these changes.

But does the sprint boost stack with the increased running speed of swashbuckler tree? And I am not sure if bards really need a sprint boost now if they can get increased permanent run speed in swashbuckler anyways.
But I can see that this might help some players who don't care about the swashbuckler tree. Or make it a multiselector with increased dmg boost and a positive spellpower boost?

Tier Three

• Ironskin Chant: Grants DR 2/4/6/- to all nearby allies for 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Caster level.
  
  • New: Ironskin Chant: You and nearby allies gain DR 2/4/6/- and 2/4/6 PRR.
  • Stretch goal: Always-on aura, no duration. Otherwise, increased duration.

Very nice that you added the PRR, but this song still doesn't scale with current endgame. Melees need to build for at least some PRR anyways atm, so the increase of 2-6 PRR is getting weaker while your equipment is getting better. If you don't have PRR this song give around 5% damage reduction? With some PRR it gives around 1%?
Would it be codewise too difficult to give 2/4/6% damage reduction? This would scale with difficulty level of the quest and I don't think -6% damage would be overpowered. Someone who put time to get decent equipment shouldn't get penalizied by song effects becoming weaker.

[*]Frozen Fury: Make a melee attack with +0.5/1/1.5[w] damage. Affected enemies must make a Fortitude save (10/12/14 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 Bard level) or become frozen solid for several seconds.

Let's say a warchanter is going to have 30 cha, then this would be a save of 34? Even if stunning from items would work with this ability... it would stop working reliable in EH beyond level 23 quests.
I still would prefer to have a multi selector, a str and cha version and full bard levels for the dc. Then we would still need the effect of stunning to use it in EE or highlevel EH quest.

• Inspire Recklessness: Expend a use of Bardic Music to grant a +6% morale bonus to double strike chance and -10% fortification to all nearby allies for 1 minute plus 6 seconds per level. This effect will be removed if the target enters combat expertise, defensive fighting, or a defensive stance. As a non-magical effect, this song cannot be removed by dispel magic or antimagic.
  
  • Stretch goal: New version: Reckless Chant: You and nearby allies gain +6 Music bonus to Universal Spellpower and +6 Music bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot.
    
    • Always-on

So we got stacking song now and the debuff is gone?

Tier Four[*]Armor Mastery moved here

I think this was strong enough for Tier 5, especially when looking at your idea of introducing MRR and introducing PRR/MRR caps and medium armor allowing uncapped PRR/MRR.
Not that I am anywhere near the PRR cap of light armor atm, but who knows. I had the impression the changes might increase the difference of wearing light and medium armor.
So just trying to think ahead a bit.
But yeah, in tier 4 this gives more possibilities to take other tier 5s, if you just want medium armor but don't like the other warchanter tier 5 stuff.

[*]Northwind: Moved to here and changed to:

• Frozen Fury chance on Vorpal hits
  
  • May have % chance or cooldown.

If this is freezing without any chance of saving it's very nice. If it's going to have a save then this will have the same problems like base version of Frozen Fury.
CC and tactical feats only work at the top DCs, otherwise they only help in content which is easy for your toon anyways and more or less useless.

Tier Five
[*]Howl of the North: (2 AP) Toggle: -5 Attack and +1 critical damage multiplier on attack rolls of 19-20 with your Trained Weapon while Gathering Cold and in a Skaldic Rage.

• New: +1 critical damage multiplier on attack rolls of 19-20
• Removed downsides and requirements.

So this changes to +2 crit multi without the -5 attack? Sounds very nice to me. But maybe make it a multi selector and also offer +2 crit range for players focusing around high crit chance instead of high crit multi?

[*]NEW: Frozen Cleave: 360 degree cleave that freezes everyone you hit (per Frozen Fury), +2/4/6[W]

• Longish cooldown.

Not sure if this is restricted to 3 mobs or just talking about the dc to save it is based on your frozen fury ability. If it's capped to 3 mobs without a chance of saving this might be ok depending how long the cooldown is going to be.
But if it's using the save of Frozen Fury it's going to be a useless enhancement because frozen fury is still not usefull.

[*]NEW: Return to Battle: Raise Dead SLA. Costs 1 Song.

Not a tier 5 enhancement if it's only raise dead and uses a song. I can use better scrolls, so why should I spend a song for this?
And I am very sure all bards are going to skill UMD.
As already mentioned, either make it True Resurrection or you can put it to tier 2. I wouldn't skill it on tier 2 either, but might be nice for splashing 2 bard levels on some builds. Although most of such splashes would max UMD too... so probably just scrap it if it's not TR.

But when thinking about it... I don't think even a TR SLA which uses songs would be strong enough to be in tier 5. Because usually a Resurrection scroll is good enough.

Even without using a song raise dead is not strong enough when you need to raise someone in a battle. I usually only raise dead between fights and use resurrection scrolls in fights.

Yeah, it's hard to make viable SLAs for a class that usually has a high UMD.

[*]NEW: Possibilities include:

• Muster: Teleport SLA
• Death Pact SLA
  

no to teleport. Nice to have, but not really tier 5 worthy, only saves the plat I need to spend for scrolls.
no to death pact.

What about mass heal using sp + song uses. Seems a bit overpowered but was trying to think about something valuable.
Maybe heal sla using songs? Would conflict with the idea to move heal spell to the warchanter capstone of other players.
Maybe cure critical wounds mass SLA which uses songs?
Greater Restoration SLA? (not sure if this is a rare scroll, if it isn't then probably not valuable enough)
Restoration, Mass SLA?
Greater Vigor. Mass?
Regeneration?
Regeneration, Mass?

Just throwing in some ideas what might be usefull.
As already mentioned, I think it's hard to find a valuable SLA which isn't overpowered or can be used from non rare scrolls anyways (because of high UMD class).


AND DON'T THINK ABOUT TAKING UMD FROM THE BARDS!!!

• NEW: Kingly Recovery: Target ally or self heals 10,000 HP. Removes ability score damage, death penalty effects, negative levels, and the conditions blinded, dazed, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, poisoned, and stunned. 3 uses per rest.

Maybe weaken Kingly recovery so that paladins don't feel fooled and make it use songs?
I mean... I like this enhancement, but I can understand if paladins would feel mad that bards are going to get it.


Just to repeat it, I like the general direction this tree is heading to.

BTW, where do I report forum issues that shouldn't be posted in public?

[Severlin]

I have a much different take then most of the posters here in that I do not think this is nearly enough. I do not like playing inspire heroics every 60 seconds with its long singing time. That is too frequent - the buff should be at least 120 seconds. I think warchanters should get +2 to inspire courage at each core. No emphasis on healing at all in the tree? Seriously I want to play a buffing/healing bard with limited melee capabilities and the buffs here are not strong enough and there is no healing. How about the Heal spell in the warchanter tree as well? More positive spell power enhancements in warchanter as well. How about combining some of these songs? Do you know how many songs bards have to play? It is silly - they need to combine songs. Combine Inspire Courage, Inspire Recklessness, Inspire Excellence, Inspire Greatness, Ironskin Chant, and Inspire Heroics and make them one song please.

My prediction is nobody plays this tree because swashbuckler is the same melee oriented concept, but better in the other tree.

Here's what I see as the "meat and potatoes" of the tree.

A support class that depends on toggle auras.

So you want to play an appreciated buff character but hate micromanaging songs and buff durations? This is the class and tree for you. Level up your bard, build a Warchanter and click your toggle auras on. Suddenly the whole party has a nice stacking speed buff, some offense boost, and some defense boost and you don't have to go through the annoyance of watching your buff durations or have your buff loving friends complain at you every time buffs run out. Yeah, you still have your songs to use but your main buffs come from auras.

You can now concentrate on healing which, since it is an on demand role, is probably more fun to manage, or just run around and hit stuff with your extra melee enhancements. To this end we give the class some buffs to heal (and a good SLA) and a line for melee buffs.

Frost and Ice aren't a function, these traits are just the flavor of the above abilities.

Sev~

[Spoonwelder]

Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Multiselector:
  
  • Skaldic Rage: Expend a Song to fly into a heroic Rage, granting you a +4 Rage bonus to Strength and -4 penalty to AC. When Skaldic Rage ends, you become fatigued. Rage Duration: 180 seconds. Duration increases with effects that increase Song durations. Skaldic Rage doesn’t stack with Barbarian Rage.
  • Skaldic Constitution: +1 Constitution (passive)
    
  
  
• 5 AP, class level 3: Fighting Spirit: +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
  
  • Moved Weapon Training here (Martial Proficiencies)
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6: Song of Heroism: Expend a use of Bardic Music to give the effects of the Greater Heroism spell to all nearby allies for 1 minute plus 6 seconds per Caster level. As a non-magical effect, this song cannot be removed by dispel magic or antimagic.
  Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
  
  
  • Increase Duration
  
  
• 20 AP, class level 12: Fighting Spirit: +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
  
  • Upgrade to +30 HP
  
  
• 30 AP, class level 18: Victory Song: Toggle: You have full Base Attack Bonus.
  Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
  
  
  • Stretch goal: Make this a simple permanent, non-toggle ability.
  
  
• 41 AP, class level 20: Warmaster:
  
  • +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
  • When you Inspire Heroics, for 12 seconds both you and the targeted ally gain +5 Competence bonus to Attack, +5 Competence bonus to Damage, +25 Competence bonus to Physical Resistance and +50 Competence bonus to resist Acid, Cold, Electric, and Fire damage.
  • NEW:
    
    • +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
    • When you Inspire Heroics, for 60 seconds both you and the targeted ally gain +5 Music bonus to Attack, +5 Music bonus to Damage, +20 Music bonus to Physical Resistance and +20 Music bonus to resist Acid, Cold, Electric, and Fire damage
    • 60 second cooldown

I like all of this with only the following comments - Song of Heroism - please make sure it applies a fear immunity like the spell - since from my experience it doesn't (go in to the Sands - sing - walk up to mummies - be afraid, be very afraid) unless I am wrong. Level twelve - HP are nice but even 30HP doesn't quite stack up with things like Power Surge though it is better than the 10HP barbs get so this is a minor quibble.

I like the L20 duration increase and cooldown - my only question is will it work with Anthem (ie. based on inspire heroics). That and my trepidation at having a new bonus type added to the game which will invariably break something else.....<emote>crosses fingers with hope for both</emote>.

Tier One

• Inspired Bravery: Inspire Courage grants +1/+2/+3 to Attack and saving throws vs. Fear.
  
  • Stretch goal: Improve?
  
  
• The Poetic Edda. +1/2/3 Attack and Bard Songs.
• Enchant Weapons: Adds the spell Enchant Weapons as a level 1 Bard spell.
• Rough and Ready: +2/4/6 AC and +2/4/6 PRR.
• Focused: +1/+2/+3 Concentrate, Intimidate and Jump. 3rd Rank: +1 Bard Song.

Inspire Bravery - as I have noted in other threads - for a class that gets GH a bonus to fear saves is irrelevant as is an attack bonus. The improve could be a simple will saves bonus

Poetic Edda - no one takes the attack version - make it damage bonus instead of attack and I may have a harder time choosing

Tier Two

• Boast: (Song) Gain 10/20/30 temporary HP for 120 seconds. While you have these temporary HP you generate 50% extra threat and gain +1[W] weapon damage. 3rd rank: +1 Barbarian Rage use (if you have it).
  
  • New: Increase Temp HP, remove other aspects (leave +Rage use)
  • DPS is coming from other sources.
  
  
• Words of Encouragement: When you Inspire Courage, allies gain +10/20/30 temporary HP for one minute. +5/10/15 Positive Spellpower
  
  • Remove pre-req from Boast
  
  
• NEW: Arcane Shield Chant: Nearby allies gain +5 Music bonus to Energy Resistance.
  
  • Always on aura
  
  
• Iced Edges: While Gathering Cold in a Skaldic Rage, when you score a critical hit you gain Breath of Frost. This can trigger up to once every 12/9/6 seconds. \\n\\nBreath of Frost: Your attacks deal +1d6 cold damage for three seconds.
  
  • NEW: Toggle: Your melee and ranged attacks deal 1d3/1d4/1d6 extra Cold Damage.
  • Comparable to Arcane Archer stances (but both Ranged and Melee).
  
  
• Gathering Cold: Toggle: Gain a +1/+2/+3 energy Resistance vs. Cold. When enemies deal you cold damage, you have a 20/40/60% chance to absorb some of that energy and gain Armor of Frost. Armor of Frost: You gain +1 stacking Cold Resistance and +1 stacking AC that lasts for 12 seconds. This effect can stack up to 5 times.
  
  • Cut completely
  
  
• Action Boost: Sprint: Activate this ability to receive a 35/40/50% Action Boost bonus to running speed for 20 seconds.

Boast - the only reason I ever used it was for the +W - if it is just Temp HP I will never use it - temporary HP aren't worth the time after level 12....unless they regenerate every 15seconds or so....ie make it like a mini Cocoon....alternatively make it apply a lifeshield effect

Words of Encouragement - see Boast - temporary HP mean little to me.....but for a full party I can see it having a moderate amount of merit...see above re: lifeshield
Arcane Shield - good
Iced edges - I like the change
Action boost - good but if I go pure I am probably putty points into SB to get the speed bonus there

Tier Three

• Ironskin Chant: Grants DR 2/4/6/- to all nearby allies for 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per Caster level.
  
  • New: Ironskin Chant: You and nearby allies gain DR 2/4/6/- and 2/4/6 PRR.
  • Stretch goal: Always-on aura, no duration. Otherwise, increased duration.
  
  
• Obstinance: You gain +1 saving throws while below 80% health. Rank 2: Additional +1 to all saving throws while below 60% health. Rank 3: Additional +1 to all saving throws while below 40% health. +5/10/15 Positive Spellpower
• High Spirits moved here
• Frozen Fury: Make a melee attack with +0.5/1/1.5[w] damage. Affected enemies must make a Fortitude save (10/12/14 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 Bard level) or become frozen solid for several seconds.
• Northwind: While Gathering Cold while in a Skaldic Rage, vorpal Hits cause 1d8/2d8/3d8 additional Cold damage.
  
  • Moved to t4 and altered.
  
  
• Ability Score: Strength or Charisma

Ironskin - good change to add PRR - might be a smidge underpowered maybe bump up the numbers a bit but not too much or it would be OP
Obstinance - needs work (or removal) anythign that requires me to be dying to be effective has to be a bit overpowered - +3 to saves is not OP.
Frozen Fury - so your average bard (50Cha) will have a DC of 44 this will be dropped once you hit Epics (vs. Swashbuskers +perform to make everything nearly always land)

Tier Four

• Inspire Recklessness: Expend a use of Bardic Music to grant a +6% morale bonus to double strike chance and -10% fortification to all nearby allies for 1 minute plus 6 seconds per level. This effect will be removed if the target enters combat expertise, defensive fighting, or a defensive stance. As a non-magical effect, this song cannot be removed by dispel magic or antimagic.
  
  • Stretch goal: New version: Reckless Chant: You and nearby allies gain +6 Music bonus to Universal Spellpower and +6 Music bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot.
    
    • Always-on
  
  
• NEW: Multiple Choice:
  
  • Expeditious Chant: You and nearby allies gain +20% Action Boost bonus to Movement Speed.
    
    • Always on
    
    
  • Rallying Cry: Action Boost: You and all allies within range of your songs gain +10/15/20% movement speed and a +1 Morale bonus to Saving Throws for twenty seconds. This ability can be used while feared, and dispels fear effects.
    
    
    • Lowered from Tier 5.
  
  
• Armor Mastery moved here
• High Spirits: Your spirits are always high, and you are immune to Crushing Despair, Waves of Fatigue, and Waves of Exhaustion. Rank 2: You are also immune to Sleep. Rank 3: You are also immune to fatigue, including from Skaldic Rage. +5/10/15 Positive Spellpower
  
  • Moved to Tier 3.
  
  
• Northwind: Moved to here and changed to:
  
  • Frozen Fury chance on Vorpal hits
    
    • May have % chance or cooldown.
  
  
• Ability Score: Strength or Charisma

Reckless Chant - all good - keep the removal of the -10% to fort
Expeditious/Rally - minor speed boost - meh - I will never take this make it a haste like effect (attack speed but maybe not full 15% as 3/6/10) and it would be useful
Armor mastery - good
High spirits - good to lower it
Northwind - remove the vorpal component OR bump up the damage 3d8 on a 20 adds less than 1dmg per swing - make it a crushing wave effect and we have something

Tier Five

• Armor Mastery (2 AP 1 rank) Gain medium armor proficiency and the ability to cast arcane spells in medium armor without arcane spell failure.
  
  • MOVED to Tier 4.
  
  
• Rallying Cry: Action Boost: You and all allies within range of your songs gain +10/15/20% movement speed and a +1 Morale bonus to Saving Throws for twenty seconds. This ability can be used while feared, and dispels fear effects.
  
  • Moved to tier 4
    
  
  
• Howl of the North: (2 AP) Toggle: -5 Attack and +1 critical damage multiplier on attack rolls of 19-20 with your Trained Weapon while Gathering Cold and in a Skaldic Rage.
  
  • New: +1 critical damage multiplier on attack rolls of 19-20
  • Removed downsides and requirements.
  
  
• Warchanter Weapon Training: (2 AP) Grants martial weapon proficiency.
  
  • Moved to Level 3 Core
    
  
  
• NEW: Frozen Cleave: 360 degree cleave that freezes everyone you hit (per Frozen Fury), +2/4/6[W]
  
  • Longish cooldown.
  
  
• NEW: Return to Battle: Raise Dead SLA. Costs 1 Song.
• NEW: Possibilities include:
  
  • Muster: Teleport SLA
  • Death Pact SLA
    
  
  
• NEW: Kingly Recovery: Target ally or self heals 10,000 HP. Removes ability score damage, death penalty effects, negative levels, and the conditions blinded, dazed, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, poisoned, and stunned. 3 uses per rest.

Howl - remove the text about Trained Weapon since it seems to have no relevance (ie. worked with anything I was allowed to swing)...also considermaking it a selector or threat range vs. threat multiplier.....depending on your weapon you may prefer one over the other.
Frozen Cleave - "per Frozen Fury" is this a counter you haven't mentioned yet? - is this freeze a helpless freeze or not? either way it is good - those are just questions I had.
Return to battle - please make it at least a resurrect - raise dead has too few HP
Muster - teleport - ok but on a UMD class I would just use a scroll
Death pact - that is good.
Kingly recovery - so 3 free heals - great...I don't know why you don't just call it that - 10000hp just distracts people.

Thanks for reviewing WC - I may just play it if most of these changes land.

[PermaBanned]

Do you know how many songs bards have to play? It is silly - they need to combine songs. Combine Inspire Courage, Inspire Recklessness, Inspire Excellence, Inspire Greatness, Ironskin Chant, and Inspire Heroics and make them one song please.

Would it be doable to introduce a "Metasong" feat? I'm thinking something like:

Symphony
• Plays all available Bard Songs.

• Songs get a "right click" menu like spells, so you can manually select "Always on, Always off or Standard" for which songs are a part of your Symphony.

Idk what the feasibility is, but it seems to me like a potentially powerful enough ability to be worth a feat.

[IronClan]

The first Warchanter changes were posted to the PC forum on the 16th... 3 days before this. Well it seems to be getting a better reception on live than in the PC forum anyway. SO that said I guess good on you guys for designing something that is being well received. Still I feel this is a very meh tree.

I also don't see much difference between the original we saw 4 days ago and the one posted here. And Would like to echo some other PC members complaints about posting a tree getting mixed reception in the PC then posting it relatively unchanged as "vetted by the PC". There's is no chance we vetted this in 3 days.

It still has laughable 30 Temp HP's if that was boosted to 100 temp hp's it would still be lame.

There's those always bad "if below X health you get Y buff" junk

There's still not enough steak and too many side dishes IMO

Frankly I wasn't finished finding Meh in this tree, we barely got to discuss it. 1d3/1d4/1d6 cold damage? 3 AP's to get something that's barely worth 1 AP? Paladins get 1d6 for 1AP in multile cases. Why 3 for Bards? Why do Bards always pay a higher price for less shiny's? That seems to be the overiding theme of the Bard class.

Compare to Druids who get the best Spell damage dice, better healing, Better CC (yes EQ is better than Fascinate)

I really feel like a minor version of a healing Aura at T5 would be really fitting this tree, otherwise there's not much of any healing in the healing and support, to go along with the not much melee... leaving not much.

Expeditious Chant or multislector Rallying Cry: why would ANYONE take Rallying Cry? 20 seconds of + movement speed and trivial +1 to saves, versus an always on +20 movement speed aura? Who's taking the 20 second version?

6 DR and 6 PRR, what does that amount to a 0.03% reduction in damage? Make it 6 and 16 and it's still a meh addition... 6 and 6 and only for new players who don't know better.

Once again Raise dead is UMD'able by a Bard around 7th level why devote an important T5 to something that is worth spending AP's on for a whole 2 levels and then respec?

[Vargouille]

That's a bit lackluster, especially if you give it a long cooldown. For a DPS oriented bard, I'd skip this and just go with exposing strikes in swashbuckler instead.

By design. If you personally want to maximize your own DPS, Warchanter isn't designed for you. If you want your raid group to have maximum efficiency, you should want a Warchanter in your party.

You can get up to 45 positive/healing spell power but it costs a lot of AP & forces you into taking specific tier 2/3/4 abilities/enhancements.

45 is already a lot, and more than most enhancement trees.

I thought Devs said Warchanter will be more healing and buffing oriented, and Spellsinger more CC, so with changes to SS tree i can see that direction (better CC, better SLA for damage and CC), but i fail to see healing part of proposed WC changes. As someone mentioned few posts before, Swashbuckler looks better as far as combat goes.

Wouldn't it be better if WC got the Heal spell and not SS?

You refer to the open discussion we had, and many players were not actually happy with strongly moving healing from Spellsinger to Warchanter. Yes, that means we've backed off on doing as much of that. The discussion can continue, but at this point we're not likely to continue down the path of moving all the support and healing into Warchanter without a lot of players changing their minds. (Nothing 'devs said' is permanent or unchangable, of course. On top of that, the goal of that thread was explicitly discussion, not stating How It Is.)

Would an Epic Elyd Edge allow the whole party to get the extra damage, PRR, and resistances?

No.

-Autogrant of the Toughness feat, opens up Epic Toughness without having to waste a feat remembering that splashing 2 fighter needs to be challenged from a melee perspective. Note I also believe pure barbs should get this autogranted.

Enhancements are ignored while leveling up; enhancement should not act as stand-ins for feat requirements for leveling up. (It's not cool to take an an enhancement that grants Toughness, level up and get Epic Toughness, and then reset your enhancements.)

-Devoted attacks, everytime you damage an enemy with melee gain 10 pos. spell power this can stack up to six times.

It'll be a tough sell convincing us that Warchanter deserves +60 more Positive Spellpower in any form (compare to Radiant Servant...)

That and my trepidation at having a new bonus type added to the game which will invariably break something else.....<emote>crosses fingers with hope for both</emote>.

From a technical perspective, we've added new bonus types all the time without trouble. Also, Bardic Music Bonus is an old existing bonus that's been around forever (though we're planning to simplify the text to just 'Music' bonus.)

Inspire Bravery - as I have noted in other threads - for a class that gets GH a bonus to fear saves is irrelevant as is an attack bonus. The improve could be a simple will saves bonus

We thought about this, but as a tier 1 this would basically make all characters with bards get +3 Will Saving throws, almost as a class feature (it would only cost 4 AP). This is something we're shying away from, though at a higher tier it might be fine.

Poetic Edda - no one takes the attack version - make it damage bonus instead of attack and I may have a harder time choosing

So, you don't like the version of +1/2/3 Bard Songs that also gives +Attack bonus? This is strictly better than some similar options in other enhancement trees. We could take off the +Attack to make it look better, but it would actually be worse...

Words of Encouragement - see Boast - temporary HP mean little to me.....but for a full party I can see it having a moderate amount of merit...see above re: lifeshield

Like some other enhancements, we expect most players to take this for the Positive Spell Power as the primary effect. It's true that there's a lot of words related to the secondary effect, which is unfortunate.

Expeditious/Rally - minor speed boost - meh - I will never take this make it a haste like effect (attack speed but maybe not full 15% as 3/6/10) and it would be useful

We understand that purely DPS oriented folks may not care about this, but +20% (usually) stacking bonus to movement speed to the entire party is something we expect to be popular.

Northwind - remove the vorpal component OR bump up the damage 3d8 on a 20 adds less than 1dmg per swing - make it a crushing wave effect and we have something

The damage is gone. You're referring the old version, not the new one.

Frozen Cleave - "per Frozen Fury" is this a counter you haven't mentioned yet? - is this freeze a helpless freeze or not? either way it is good - those are just questions I had.

Apologies to the many who asked about this and the unclear text. "Per Frozen Fury" is just an idiom; this was intended to mean "similar to how Frozen Fury works".

Kingly recovery - so 3 free heals - great...I don't know why you don't just call it that - 10000hp just distracts people.

Heal is usually about 150 damage. We're pretty sure there's a practical difference between 150 and 10,000.

[Ausdoerrt]

Here's what I see as the "meat and potatoes" of the tree.

A support class that depends on toggle auras.

So you want to play an appreciated buff character but hate micromanaging songs and buff durations? This is the class and tree for you. Level up your bard, build a Warchanter and click your toggle auras on. Suddenly the whole party has a nice stacking speed buff, some offense boost, and some defense boost and you don't have to go through the annoyance of watching your buff durations or have your buff loving friends complain at you every time buffs run out. Yeah, you still have your songs to use but your main buffs come from auras.

You can now concentrate on healing which, since it is an on demand role, is probably more fun to manage, or just run around and hit stuff with your extra melee enhancements. To this end we give the class some buffs to heal (and a good SLA) and a line for melee buffs.

Frost and Ice aren't a function, these traits are just the flavor of the above abilities.

Sev~

Melee is all well and good, but any chance for some ranged treatment for bards? It's a pretty popular and flavorful bard variation.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Here's what I see as the "meat and potatoes" of the tree.

A support class that depends on toggle auras.

So you want to play an appreciated buff character but hate micromanaging songs and buff durations? This is the class and tree for you. Level up your bard, build a Warchanter and click your toggle auras on. Suddenly the whole party has a nice stacking speed buff, some offense boost, and some defense boost and you don't have to go through the annoyance of watching your buff durations or have your buff loving friends complain at you every time buffs run out. Yeah, you still have your songs to use but your main buffs come from auras.

You can now concentrate on healing which, since it is an on demand role, is probably more fun to manage, or just run around and hit stuff with your extra melee enhancements. To this end we give the class some buffs to heal (and a good SLA) and a line for melee buffs.

Frost and Ice aren't a function, these traits are just the flavor of the above abilities.

Sev~

Love it.

Now to add to the jack-of-all-trades nature - add several classic PnP metamagic feats: Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture.

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-ar...titution--880/

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-ar...dmixture--871/

[IronClan]

You refer to the open discussion we had, and many players were not actually happy with strongly moving healing from Spellsinger to Warchanter. Yes, that means we've backed off on doing as much of that.

This is where a minor healing aura comes into play. THEN you have difference between spellsinger, and it has great synergy with melee (being melee and casting targeted heals is no fun at all) having a passive healing Aura makes the Warchanter more survivable, and they look to have terrible survivability as you've designed them, but we haven't even gotten a chance to discuss that shortcoming of this tree.

We understand that purely DPS oriented folks may not care about this, but +20% (usually) stacking bonus to movement speed to the entire party is something we expect to be popular.

I agree it will be popular it's one of the only really meaty buffs in the whole tree... What is puzzling is why there's a T2 action boost offered as a multiselector choice with it.

[Grailhawk]

You refer to the open discussion we had, and many players were not actually happy with strongly moving healing from Spellsinger to Warchanter. Yes, that means we've backed off on doing as much of that. The discussion can continue, but at this point we're not likely to continue down the path of moving all the support and healing into Warchanter without a lot of players changing their minds. (Nothing 'devs said' is permanent or unchangable, of course. On top of that, the goal of that thread was explicitly discussion, not stating How It Is.)

Split the difference leave Heal in the Spellsinger Capstone but move Sustaining Song to Warchanter and make it an Aura. IMO original your original design goals for the trees were better then what the masses wanted, I think some of that was just resistance to change.

[poltt48]

Everyone complaining about this but it is better then what we have now. Okay frozen fury changes are still useless and the 2 buffs with temp hp are useless since mobs hit 200+ starting on level 21 epic and those temp hp are gone. But at least we are getting something. I know this tree is far less powerful then spellsinger and swashbuckler but still not bad to spend 10 or 15 enhancement points in for buffs. I realize not a single player will take this as there main enhancement but will give us better options then we have now.

[maddmatt70]

Here's what I see as the "meat and potatoes" of the tree.

A support class that depends on toggle auras.

So you want to play an appreciated buff character but hate micromanaging songs and buff durations? This is the class and tree for you. Level up your bard, build a Warchanter and click your toggle auras on. Suddenly the whole party has a nice stacking speed buff, some offense boost, and some defense boost and you don't have to go through the annoyance of watching your buff durations or have your buff loving friends complain at you every time buffs run out. Yeah, you still have your songs to use but your main buffs come from auras.

You can now concentrate on healing which, since it is an on demand role, is probably more fun to manage, or just run around and hit stuff with your extra melee enhancements. To this end we give the class some buffs to heal (and a good SLA) and a line for melee buffs.

Frost and Ice aren't a function, these traits are just the flavor of the above abilities.

Sev~

Well I would not say that I hate micromanaging songs and buff durations having played bards since DDO came out, but the current problem is that the current songs have less impact and there are far too many to manage. I would like it all streamlined to 5-8 buffs instead of the current 20+ buffs and those 5-8 buffs make a big impact. I have known bards that liked buffing all day long and doing little else and I would say this enhancement should actually be more oriented toward them, but still I would like things streamlined especially with the current zerge ahead and not wait for buffs style that so many people in game play at. Buffing is actually a player skill and I do not want to see it be removed from the game in all its forms.

Regarding the auras Ram Shield Chant, Ironskin Chant, Reckless Chant, and Expeditous Chant are all nice concepts, but you still have to play inspire heroics every 60 seconds, inspire greatness, inspire courage, inspire excellence, and then there is inspire competence if you want to play that (which never got buffed by the way). There are also more self/song buffs for a bard depending on the bard's destiny and in this enhancement of coruse. Those are just song buffs, but what of all the bard spell buffs that are dead or still useful like blur, freedom of movement, good hope and haste although everyone has haste now. Back when the cap was level 20 bards had haste, displacement, freedom of movement and greater heroiism for spell buffs and inspire courage and inspire greatness for song buffs. So 6 primary buffs that were pretty powerful and now compare that to what they have to do now?

You could go with an all aura concept, but I say you eliminate some of the songs and replace that with capabilities which buff this smaller set of songs and you sprinkle a few auras in.

Sev you did not give the warchanter adequate healing capability which was my other comment: not enough positive spell power and not sufficient quality SLAs.

[IronClan]

I realize not a single player will take this as there main enhancement but will give us better options then we have now.

Well if that isn't Damning with faint praise I agree, i just don't think enhancement trees should be designed that way.

[bbqzor]

Based on your and Player Council Feedback, here's the changes we're currently considering for Warchanter enhancements. Note that this is in a slightly different format than some previous editions; the original version is listed for many enhancements with changes below in red.

Alright, feedback time.

Core Abilities

Skaldic Rage is basically the same but gains the +1 Con. That is completely fine and helps with bard hp some, I understand it cant go to +2 here, it just rounds them up to the next hp bracket earlier than normal their entire career and then (likely) adds another 28 at cap. Thats cool. Actually more focused on the AC penalty. Does that need to be there? Or one of that size anyhow? Might drop it to -2 (like regular rage). Why are Warchanters, who can cast while raging, more reckless than full on barbarians? Just saying, WC need to skirmish and survive to keep everyone in range of auras... -4 AC right at level 1 is a bit steep. Stick with -2 please.

Fighting Spirit, good change. Bumping the profs to here really means you can play a WC like a WC without relying on masters touch for 6+ levels or multiclassing.

Song of Heroism, good change. The +1 Damage continues the tradition that was started ages ago with having the best inspire courage and thats great to see. One thing... PLEASE VERIFY the fear immunity. Currently, it is NOT always applying that. It IS possible to get feared with this song on, on live. While youre fixing stuff, theres a fix.

Fighting Spirit, again good change. Adding another 30 hp here is exactly what WC needs to "keep up" with higher Hit Die classes. I think its better splitting it as 10/30 over the two tiers instead of identical 20/20 at both, since anyone putting 12 levels into bard is committed. Good choice.

Victory Song, more good change. Same as before with the Courage damage, and making it permanent like the War Priest Divine Power is exactly what it needs. The stretch goal is CRITICAL here... spamming this toggle on and off every couple mins due to stuff is incredibly annoying and unsatisfying.

Warmaster... meh. Heres the deal, singing this, animation wise, takes too long. Its like trying to do an action boost, only your action boost animation is so long by the time its done (or the guy you target runs out of range, etc) the moment is gone. Dropping the numbers a little, and making it so that its you and an ally and for a minute is good. Hopefully its increased by song duration stuff as well, meaning that with tons of micro you might be able to get it on 2-3 people at at time, which then makes it befitting of the name. BUT!!! It has to cast faster. Suggestion: Take this off the Heroism cue, and just make it its own song-using boost. So like, instead of "when you song of heroism..." just make it "target an ally and spend a song" just like Reign or other abilities that eat a song to do. That frees you up to get the animation/cast time down to just a regular boost, and that in turn makes it actually playable. I know, generally we want less songs total to juggle, but this is a case where thats holding it back. It needs to work like a boost, to be a boost. Thanks.

Overall on the Core, good changes. Lot of patchwork and theme building. Props. Lessen the AC penalty on Rage. Get the Fear Immunity fixed. And try to take warmaster off the song cast animation.

Tier One

For the four staying the same, thats fine. I would point out that if you make Skaldic Rage less of a punitive AC cost, that Rough and Ready starts to make more sense (net +4 AC, its kinda like a bard getting the shield spell). So again, less AC penalty =p.

To Improve Inspire Bravery, easy suggestion: Your Inspire Courage now CURES fear. See... other than the spell Remove Fear, all the bard fear buffing effects never actually remove it. I cant tell you how many freaking times Ive been in some group where the clueless bard spams GH on someone who is feared... no that doesnt help. Just make this add "Remove Fear" to Inspire Courage as a kicker. Frees up WC from having to spam the spell on anyone and get back to singing and fighting! Can keep the +sv vs fear, just like remove fear adds one, so it cures fear if its on you and helps avoid it if not. Assuming the fix to Song of Heroism goes in its a short lived fix, but its better than nothing. Ultimately this may need a new name and new identity if the intention is for it to be relevant at 20+.

Overall, Tier 1 wasnt that bad off. The AC thing needs to make sense more but addressing Skaldic can fix that, and hopefully you think of a good thing to buff Inspire Bravery if not my suggestion, because yes it is lackluster.

Tier Two

Boast... hmm... not totally sold. Spending songs to get basically 1 hits worth of hp (because seriously it cant be like 2-3 epic sized hits) just isnt going to matter really. And with you pulling it out of the ability chain (which is good, that chain was just really badly arranged) but leaving it tied to probably the weakest core... its a recipe for 2 things no one ever buys. Changing it to provide temp hp on any song or song using effect might be better (like a self only version of words of encouragement for all song using things). So like, sing a song, get temp hp. Use Reign, get temp hp. Use Skaldic Rage, get temp hp. Etc. This cuts down on your micro because its passive, and rewards you for every song action you take. By preventing hits in melee it might even help you mitigate in combat when singing... somewhat like self healing in a fashion. Another upside? Frees the animation up to use for something like Warmaster =p.

Words of Encouragement, with it now being its own thing, taking it solely for devotion is completely valid and the temp hp is effectively just icing. Good choice.

Arcane Shield Chant, cool deal. Id suggest adding something like 1% absorb (similar to the arcane epic past live, since its a bard thing) so it has some use even against larger values later on, where 5 resist becomes fairly meh. Also, it parallels the new ship buff design of using both values together. Also, 1% is a pretty small bone to throw, but every little bit helps and thats a very bard-y way to think. Might be fun to stack it up with the past lives and stuff to actually get to a good (10%+) value too, as a neat perk.

Iced Edges, exactly what this should have been, thank you. Damage values seem a bit low, given how nothing else bard related helps cold, Id copy the poison stance at d4/d6/d8. They cant ramp it up with fatesinger later on, or things like that, its kind of the only cold thing... well... left out in the cold. Also depends on pricing... at 2AP/lvl this is just too expensive. 2AP for a d3 is too much, as would even be 6AP for 1d8 were it changed. Keep it at 1/tier since it stands alone in usefulness, even if that means keeping it at lower dice values. I just think 3ap for 1d6 (or 1 ap per dmg which can easily be resisted by any mob with Cold 5) is too marginal to really feel valuable.

Gathering Cold being out... yay who cares lol! And Sprint Boost staying the same is as expected.

Overall, right direction but this tier inst quite there yet. Still needs some adjusting to ensure this stuff is relevant at 20+. With some easy tweaks though this could be a good tier.

Tier Three

Iron Skin Chant, IF you make the stretch goal to "Aura" this, then I approve. If you miss that goal, then meh prolly wont take it. Its easy to get 5 DR nowadays, and having to spend AP and a song and the time to sing it to get 6 PRR is kinda too much work honestly. But if the thing was just on for everyone, paladin style, hey great. Thats a good approach.

Obstinance, any chance of getting the hp marks changed on this? To maybe like 90%/75%/50%? Or even 100%/80%/60%, if you didnt mind basically giving +1 all the time? With Bard HP levels, its very hard to even get the 80% one often, let alone the other 2 which are basically risking death to get +1-2 saves. I mean I understand this is about the positive spellpower with a kicker, I get that. But theres a difference between words of encouragements kicker that, while marginal, you can actually use vs this which really should never even be happening. At least use the 90/75/50 values, your bard might bounce around in that range periodically gaining some saves. But the 80/60/40... no ones going to sit under 80 for saves and 1 saves wont save you if youre under 40. I get the intent (its not meant to be used, its clutch to maybe save you) but "saving you" operations should start well before 40% in anything which qualifies as "difficult content" and hence the kind of thing where 1 saves might be make or break. In other words, to be clutch, it has to actually happen when clutch situations are occurring... right now it doesnt. Thanks.

High Spirits, good call. Another positive SP ability with a fantastic kicker. Props on the move, I like that it opens up a lot of spellpower earlier on for support minded bards.

Frozen Fury hmm... on changing it to Fort not sure. In some ways its better than Ref in abstract, but... depends how you use it. I used it to try and freeze low ref casters to help cc, which as Ref still works on arcane ones but now wont on ones like Cleric mobs. Not sure I like that, Ref may be better (just like Freezing Ice is ref). But raising the save for bards was very necessary. Its still going to max out somewhere around 49 (20 bard with 60 cha), which isnt all that... but it will land some on EH at least. If it were me, I would keep it Ref and prolly just go +whole bard level not half. So itd cap out around Ref 59 if you went all bard, all cha. A more reasonable WC value might be something like 39-49 for a 10-20 lvls of WC bard on a 40 cha base. But, its at least in the ballpark now even if I dont like this treatment.

Northwind moved okay will reply in T4, and Ability Scores same okay great.

Overall, okay tier... IF Ironskin is aura-ized and IF Obstinace hp values are adjusted and IF frozen fury gets tweaked a bit it could be cool. But thats a lot of ifs. As is, the only thing I really like is High Spirits, which wasnt even in this tier to begin with. But it has a lot of promise pending adjustments before live, its a good base to work from.

Tier Four

Inspire Recklessness ... yes finally. A stacking, non-life-threatening version of what it should be. Adding the 6 spellpower so it helps everyone (including the WC) was a nice touch, as was modernizing the doublestrike for ranged and melee. Aura or not, Im okay with, as songs persist even when people split up where as Auras dont. Unlike Ironskin (which as a defensive thing you both want on all the time, and was minor enough to not be worth hassle) this is important and not something world ending if it drops. Even if you cannot Aura-ize it, at least update the song effects to those described. Leaving it as is (just non stacking 6% to melee at the cost of fort) isnt cool. RELATED: does the new version work on defensive-stanced people? I think it should, the whole reason the other one didnt was to give tanks a way to cancel the fort debuff besides trying to flee from the singing guy before it was too late. It would be a good time to clean that up so that everyone likes WC!

Expeditions/Rallying .. wow! Great choice to add. I am certain many people will be a fan of this. Really cool!

Armor Mastery being moved, so smart! This really helps bards who arent WC but still might like different armors to participate. I support this fully, it opens up a lot of choices and thats a good thing.

Northwind... eh. As mentioned before, even when youre working hard to max the DC, tons of mobs have huge fort. Ive got monks and PMs and can say, you need a really big Fort number to land a lot. 49 is not that really big number. Procing it on 20s, or once a minute, or whatever limit you put... yea, occasionally it will help, but its not something worth really spending AP on. Any melee whos run a DC 50 or less stunning blow knows, it aint all that. I like the concept here, of procing it passively instead of just on activation, so its a great idea. But it needs to find a balance of frequency and effectiveness which actually matters. Right now, formulas as is, I dont see it happening. Needs more DC.

Ability Score okay yea.

Overall this tier is super solid. Assuming you get the Recklessness changes in, that plus Expeditious/Rally plus Armor Mastery, huge tier. Lots of great choices. Almost surely not enough AP. Northwind is still pretty bad with a hard to use DC on a hard to target stat, but I look at that as one way to save AP for the rest of this tier. Still though, I cant support anything which isnt actually appealing so I hope it gets tweaked some.

Tier Five

Howl of the North, okay good. Same as all the other abilities of this nature now, and works on all weapons not just martial. Thank you for the fixing.

Frozen Cleave, well, this idea, of all of them, is by far the coolest. I really like WC being given an in-house cleave attack which an actual themed effect to boot. But, again, 49 fort AE isnt going to do anything, esp not on a long cd. Nothing is going to feel worse than seeing this cool sounding thing you sank like 9-18 AP in just do almost nothing when you punch it. Oh yay I froze like one mob out of a pack of 6.. sigh morale down irl. Again Id ask it go back to Ref, and maybe use full bard level. Or, alternatively, how about this? Each of this other tiers (this and northiwnd) add to the DC? Like zomg synergy! So Frozen Fury is 14+mods, Northwind makes it +1/2/3 so 17 plus mods, and this makes it +1/2/3 again so 20 plus mods. That lands you at maybe 55 base here. That may see some good use then. And actually makes it worth taking the whole chain. Winner?

Return to Battle: Cool. Might be nice to see like 3 ranks, for raise/ressurect/true res. Only because "returning to battle" with like 5 hp is really dangerous a lot of times, and if ANYONE has the UMD for ress scrolls, its the bard. If youre going to spend AP for an ability you basically already have, at least make it not-worse-than-what-you-have-already.

"Possibilities" ... dont really like a deathpact or muster SLA. Deathpact hurts your Con and has many stacking troubles, thats not desirable, and bards can already UMD teleports... plus they dont actually help you while questing just in town. I dont want a classes Tier 5 pinnacle ability to be "hey this does nothing for you in a quest". I know neither of those is too helpful but yea. Maybe adding something like a Scream Attack (think like primal scream, or the druid howl when you get a kill sonic thing) to give WC a reason to actually fight. The whole tree so far is almost all support. Theres lots of passive +atk/dmg and the frozen attack sure. But thats all buffing or support. How about something that actually focuses on the WAR part, with bonuses to getting kills? I like the scream on death concept so the WC can fire off some AEs or whatnot, maybe a chilling death howl if you want to keep it sonic/cold themed, with half and half for dmg types or something.

Kingly Recovery, ok an Unyielding Sovereignty clone isnt bad. And 3/shrine is actually probably okay here. But it might be nice if it regen'd on a timer too. So like, a cross between the current US (1/5min) and fvs wings (5 max but recharge). That way WC are unique in that they can burst the ability (3 charges quickly) but still get them back like others who pay the same cost but DONT have to lock in T5 for it (so 1 back every 5 min). That would seriously be unique, fun, and really cool!

Overall, this tier obviously needs some finishing but thats okay. Theres some potential here. Howl is really solid, and frozen cleave, with the dc-from-chain mods suggested could be cool, esp as a 360 attack. Kingly Recovery, if changed to recharge, would actually be quite appealing. Return to Battle is a great idea (and faster than messing with scrolls mid fight), but precisely because of that needs to be practical mid fight so I hope its either changed to tiered or just to ressurection flat out. Then the open slot could be something, but needs a new idea not what was suggested (death pact and teleport are both not appealing in the least).

.....

In total, this tree isnt bad! It needs some fixing, but it reminds me of Swash now. I think with future iterations it can turn into something really cool, and like where its going. But dont neglect the feedbacks! Some changes are needed still! Thanks.

And a comment from the thread:

You refer to the open discussion we had, and many players were not actually happy with strongly moving healing from Spellsinger to Warchanter. Yes, that means we've backed off on doing as much of that. The discussion can continue, but at this point we're not likely to continue down the path of moving all the support and healing into Warchanter without a lot of players changing their minds.

I think the approach in the OP is exactly what should have happened and wanted to voice my support of this direction. Especially I am hopeful that Kingly Recovery can be changed to recharge like wings. If so, that gives WC a really unique feel which mimics light the darks recharging LoH setup, with USs cure-all, and with charges enough to hit multiple people quickly which is decidedly something no one else can do in a tight spot. Thats certainly enough healing support on top of 45 spellpower on mass cures. The class is in a good place with this tree, it just needs to get the kinks out. Cheers.

[N-0cturn]

Well it is better that the live version and I am happy with some changes, however it is far from perfect and there are other things that I think still need work.

First of all:

By design. If you personally want to maximize your own DPS, Warchanter isn't designed for you. If you want your raid group to have maximum efficiency, you should want a Warchanter in your party.

Please keep in mind that most players want their character to be useful in as many situations as possible. Which is soloing, short manning, 6-Player groups and of course raiding. It is ok if this specific tree works best in a raid but I think it should also offer some personal DPS and Defense benefits. I am really disappointed that you did not include any boosts to THF and TWF, which would have fitted perfectly in the theme of Warchanter and are needed to provide an alternative to the Swashbuckling Stance.

Feedback in the tree:

- Core abilities 1-5 are ok. Core 18 could use a boost though.

- Core 6: For me the ability is just not designed to be fun. Why? Because Inspire Heroism has the longest animation together with Inspire Courage, which is about 5-6 seconds if I remember it correctly. I really, really don't want to be stuck in this animation every 60 seconds. Do not tie any short time buff to Inspire Heroism or Inspire Courage, just make it an instant song, separate from Inspire Heroism.

Even if it is changed to be separate it would probably not be enough for me to go pure on a WC. There is still room for an improvement to T5 or T6.

- Tier one:
*Inspired Bravery: Yes this needs to be improved. Saves vs Fear are obsolete because after just 11 AP in the tree everyone will be immune to fear anyway. I would add + (0/1/2) to all saves.

- Tier 2:
*Boast: No. This is a really bad idea. Temp HP don't scale at all. If you make it 100 HP it would very good at lower levels but worthless in higher heroics. Even if you make it scale on bard levels there is such a high difference in incoming damage on Epics (EH as well not only EE) that I cannot imagine a good solution to this. Personally I would replace it with improved Power attack. But since it seems that you are not willing to throw TWF and THF bards a bone, that`s probably not going to happen
* I like the other changes in T2

- Tier Three:
*Frozen Fury it is a decent start but no enough, especially if you change it to Fort save. You could either let it be affected by Stunning DC improvements, which would let it end at the same DC as stunning fist or maybe add modifiers to evocation DC to give it something unique. Otherwise you could just make it + bard levels which would give it a bit lower DC but that's kind of fair since you don't have to invest in Gear/Enhancements.
* I like the other changed in T3

- Tier Four:
*Expeditious Chant + Rallying Cry: I like it but hopefully you do not expect anyone to choose Rallying Cry. Thanks to Song of Heroism we will be immune to fear. So I have the choice between a 20% running speed boots that is always on and an 20% running speed and +1 saves action boost that I can use every 20 out of 30 Seconds until my Action boosts are empty. This is not a choice. Everyone will just take Expeditious Chant. Just remove Rallying Cry.
*Northwind: - same issue as Frozen Fury
* I like the other changes in T4

- Tier Five:
*Frozen Cleave: I like it, but same issue as Frozen Fury
*Return to Battle:
Raise Dead + Teleport are a clear "No Thanks, keep it" - Bards have a high UMD and why would I waste a song when I can just use a scroll? If it would add the spells to the bard spell list I might consider it out of laziness (well not really Raise Dead since, Resurrecion scrolls are still better), but it would still not be a reason to go WC T5.
Death Pact: I think I would use it as a fail-save when soloing. Seems like the best option out of the three.
* I like the other changes in T5

[Paleus]

[*]Frozen Fury: Make a melee attack with +0.5/1/1.5[w] damage. Affected enemies must make a Fortitude save (10/12/14 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 Bard level) or become frozen solid for several seconds.

I would re-evaluate tying save DC's to class level versus character level. Abilities tied to character level continue to scale into epics, while abilities tied to class level will start to lose power as epic levels increase. In this example, a level 20 pure bard with say 50 charisma has about a 44 dc, thats pretty solid at level 20, but by level 30 that dc hasn't changed much if at all, and that just wouldn't cut it anymore. This reduces the effectiveness of signature class abilities like assassinate or in this case frozen fury.

However, abilities tied to character level can give outsized benefits to small splashes, for example a character with 4 level splash in favored soul has the same effective power to their ameliorating strike that a pure favored soul does. In my opinion, by no means universal, there needs to be a middle ground where epic levels do not decrease the effectiveness of a heroic ability (otherwise different classes just start looking the same in the end) but also give benefits that to having more levels in a class when using a signature ability. Counting epic levels as class levels for calculations with these types of abilities may be a reasonable start.

[OverlordOfRats]

Change it to a choice of element(Acid/Cold/Fire/Electric) like the Arcane Archer's toggles.
The names could be changed to Elemental Edges/Elemental Fury/Elemental Wind(or Northwind, Southwind, Eastwind, Westwind)/Elemental Cleave.

The choice for Elemental Edges locks the above enhancements to that element.

Elemental Edges changes to Your melee and ranged attacks deal 1d3/1d4/1d6 extra elemental Damage of your chosen element.
Elemental Fury changes to Turned to Stone/Frozen/Paralyzed(?)/Stunned
Elemental Wind changes to Elemental Fury chance on Vorpal hits.
Elemental Cleave changes to 360 degree cleave that applies a Elemental Fury effect to everyone you hit, +2/4/6[W]

It would allow more options if you are going to be doing a lot of questing where the monsters are resistant to an element. It would require a tree reset to change elements, so not something to be done between each quest.

Just my thoughts.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Change it to a choice of element(Acid/Cold/Fire/Electric) like the Arcane Archer's toggles.
The names could be changed to Elemental Edges/Elemental Fury/Elemental Wind(or Northwind, Southwind, Eastwind, Westwind)/Elemental Cleave.

The choice for Elemental Edges locks the above enhancements to that element.

Elemental Edges changes to Your melee and ranged attacks deal 1d3/1d4/1d6 extra elemental Damage of your chosen element.
Elemental Fury changes to Turned to Stone/Frozen/Paralyzed(?)/Stunned
Elemental Wind changes to Elemental Fury chance on Vorpal hits.
Elemental Cleave changes to 360 degree cleave that applies a Elemental Fury effect to everyone you hit, +2/4/6[W]

It would allow more options if you are going to be doing a lot of questing where the monsters are resistant to an element. It would require a tree reset to change elements, so not something to be done between each quest.

Just my thoughts.

I like this idea a lot! Yes, more options/choices/flexibility is a *good* thing! *IMO*! Hear, hear! :P! ! !

[CoasterHops]

It'll be a tough sell convincing us that Warchanter deserves +60 more Positive Spellpower in any form (compare to Radiant Servant...)

It'll be a tough sell convincing a Warchanter to A. Stay pure and B. Select this capstone ability......

[Spoonwelder]

From a technical perspective, we've added new bonus types all the time without trouble. Also, Bardic Music Bonus is an old existing bonus that's been around forever (though we're planning to simplify the text to just 'Music' bonus.)

Still gonna cross my fingers and you can't stop me

We thought about this, but as a tier 1 this would basically make all characters with bards get +3 Will Saving throws, almost as a class feature (it would only cost 4 AP). This is something we're shying away from, though at a higher tier it might be fine.

Since you can't be Pally or Monk I know this won't make anyone OP more the a 2Pally splash.

So, you don't like the version of +1/2/3 Bard Songs that also gives +Attack bonus? This is strictly better than some similar options in other enhancement trees. We could take off the +Attack to make it look better, but it would actually be worse...

Sorry I read it as OR not AND - I was thinking of the multiselector in Spellchanter of Songs or SP. Nothing to see here - move along.

Like some other enhancements, we expect most players to take this for the Positive Spell Power as the primary effect. It's true that there's a lot of words related to the secondary effect, which is unfortunate.

I still say you could either make this a mini-cocoon OR add lifeshield instead to make it tastier - that may mean it has to move to Tier 3/4 but it would be worth it.

We understand that purely DPS oriented folks may not care about this, but +20% (usually) stacking bonus to movement speed to the entire party is something we expect to be popular.

Honestly beyond 30% haste and I don't really notice a huge benefit - not Tier 4 level benefit quality anyway. I have never used Rallying Cry on my PDK TRs - I don't expect to ever use either of these options - especially when I have to spend valuable AP on them.

The damage is gone. You're referring the old version, not the new one.

• Northwind: Moved to here and changed to:
  
  • Frozen Fury chance on Vorpal hits
    
    • May have % chance or cooldown.
    
    
  
  

My issue was with the Vorpal component for it....I expect it won't have the +W so it is just the freeze component many people have noted the DC issue with this beyond L20 so I still think it is weak.

Apologies to the many who asked about this and the unclear text. "Per Frozen Fury" is just an idiom; this was intended to mean "similar to how Frozen Fury works".

Ok - no counters BUT you ignored my other question - is this a helpless freeze? ie. 50% dmg bonus....because if it is I can see the 3 chances to get that every 15 seconds or so (depending on cooldowns) will make it worth building for (ie. lots of 50% damage bonus-this plus Fury or LD and you could be churning up trash). The DC issue still exists (make it 1/2 perform not 1/2 level if you want to constrain it - but the DC needs to approach the mid 60s at endgame on a character that builds for it and fairly easily hit low 50s on a non-completionist played forever type character)(ie. one can work some of the time in EH where the other will work some of the time in EE).

Heal is usually about 150 damage. We're pretty sure there's a practical difference between 150 and 10,000.

I didn't mean Heal - I said 'heal' more like full heal .....10000hp just like in US looks silly.



Now for one overarching concern with Auras.......by Aura - I assume you are talking an aura like Pally's or Radiant Servant. So stay near me and be buffed - don't and you aren't .........yeah my parties are more like cat herding than a Roman phalanx....so anything dependant on staying close to the bard will rarely be effective (especially if you fall behind and no longer have the 20% buff).

I like the idea but I am concerned about the implementation.

It looks like you are trying to build the WC to be the 'Raid Bard' I just hope the implementation will actually work in the raids (ie. any where you have forced splits which is most raids at some point).