Spellsinger Changes

[Maelodic]

I think thats a gross exaggeration.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. This coming from somebody who is extremely excited to play the new bard and have been planning builds around it. Though I believe that the complaints are a bit misguided and I don't believe that anything should be changed.

Bards do not have the best combat style in the game. They've got an excellent one. But SWF is not for every class. Out of TWF, THF, and SWF I believe SWF is the least versatile and will be the least used (with the possible exception of bards).

SWF IS the best combat style in the game right now- it has considerably better cleaves than TWF and very similar cleaves as THF. It has extremely similar single target DPS as TWF. People are making SWF Monks- just because not everybody has rerolled doesn't meant it's not the most powerful combat style in the game. I know what the devs had said, and I know what you believe SWF SHOULD be like, but that's not how it is. It's the most versatile combat style and excels in EVERYTHING.

Granted, it's not the most powerful by much, but it is still the most powerful.

Best instakill? No. Coup isnt one and done. It needs to be set up with a fascinate, . That takes a bit of time. And then there's a cooldown.

In Swashbuckler as long as you're using a buckler or nothing in your offhand, you get a single target instant CC ability with the same DC that you can 1-2 into CDG- just hit that button first. They're on similar cooldowns and it's extremely reliable. It is one and done with a no-fail DC. It has the same cooldown as assassinate, which is extremely difficult to get the DCs up on and you have to be sneaking and within sneak attack, which is harder than setting up CDG.

This is one and done, or two and done. Have you played with it yet?
I honestly believe that Coup De Grace is grossly overpowered in combination with Low Blow and Slap in the Face- these stun abilities should not use the same DC.

Best melee CC? Good! They are BARDS. Bards control things.

No argument here.

Magnitude better than other classes options? No. They are bard exclusives. They can stand toe to toe with an enemy much better than before.

The problem people are saying is bards now have the best:
-Melee DPS output (Second only to exploiter druids)
-Insta-kill
-Spell based crowd control
-Melee based crowd control
-Buffs/Utility

How do I feel about it?
Well, each of these abilities people are complaining about are T5s and mutually exclusive. Granted Frozen Fury any bard can get- but it's not as strong as the T5 in warchanter.
So you CAN have the best SOMETHING, but you can't have the best EVERYTHING.
The problem is that Bards have become the one class for everything- you can do anything as a Bard except consistent spell DPS, and that's getting better (still not great)
Almost every other tree will need a buff to catch up to just one of the Bard trees. Each of the Bard T5 abilities have become absolutely amazing.

The thing is, I don't feel this is wrong because I feel as though every tree should be this way.
T5s SHOULD be grossly powerful. I do think that Low Blow/Slap in the Face>CDG combo SHOULD be toned down just because you have an 100+ DC insta-kill combo on a 12/15 second cooldown.

Bards aren't broken. A lot of other trees are- this is what we should have gotten with the enhancement pass.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

...I believe that the complaints are a bit misguided and I don't believe that anything should be changed. So you CAN have the best SOMETHING, but you can't have the best EVERYTHING. Bards aren't broken. A lot of other trees are- this is what we should have gotten with the enhancement pass.

I have not been able to play with Coup De Grace yet, but I don't think my opinion will change once I do, but who knows - it might. Let's just say I agree with your comments above and call it a morning! The rest of it we are basically saying the same thing, just in different ways.

[MadCookieQueen]

I have not been able to play with Coup De Grace yet,

There in lies part of the problem...

Few little things from testing it:

a good Soundburst will stun an area...the Soundburst SLA out of Exalted makes this stupid easy to pull off. Also see the other stun effect SLAs on the horizon...

IPS works with Coup...one dagger, one line = 3 dead.

Swashbuckler boosts thrown attacks (crazily so)...mix that with a little rogue assassin...it gets nasty and broken real fast. Also rogues can't hit the same DC for their insta kill and they can't hit multiple targets at once.

This is the point...a Bard should not be able to out assassinate a trained fully built assassin...but here they are.

[maddmatt70]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. This coming from somebody who is extremely excited to play the new bard and have been planning builds around it. Though I believe that the complaints are a bit misguided and I don't believe that anything should be changed.



SWF IS the best combat style in the game right now- it has considerably better cleaves than TWF and very similar cleaves as THF. It has extremely similar single target DPS as TWF. People are making SWF Monks- just because not everybody has rerolled doesn't meant it's not the most powerful combat style in the game. I know what the devs had said, and I know what you believe SWF SHOULD be like, but that's not how it is. It's the most versatile combat style and excels in EVERYTHING.

Granted, it's not the most powerful by much, but it is still the most powerful.



In Swashbuckler as long as you're using a buckler or nothing in your offhand, you get a single target instant CC ability with the same DC that you can 1-2 into CDG- just hit that button first. They're on similar cooldowns and it's extremely reliable. It is one and done with a no-fail DC. It has the same cooldown as assassinate, which is extremely difficult to get the DCs up on and you have to be sneaking and within sneak attack, which is harder than setting up CDG.

This is one and done, or two and done. Have you played with it yet?
I honestly believe that Coup De Grace is grossly overpowered in combination with Low Blow and Slap in the Face- these stun abilities should not use the same DC.



No argument here.



The problem people are saying is bards now have the best:
-Melee DPS output (Second only to exploiter druids)
-Insta-kill
-Spell based crowd control
-Melee based crowd control
-Buffs/Utility
.

People who have a clue are not saying that bards have the best melee dps output. Single Weapon Fighting maybe the best style at them moment, but non bard single weapon fighting builds do more damage then bards. I would still take a pale master any day of the week for insta killing due to that they multiple spells and aoe spells that they can use for insta killing. I would also take an enchantment specced wizard for spell based crowd control as well vs a bard. Buffs a warchanter is very strong in and the strongest probably which is fine. Melee based crowd control perhaps, but they still have to work on the fighter trees and monks have a lot of stuff currently so shrug.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

People who have a clue are not saying that bards have the best melee dps output. Single Weapon Fighting maybe the best style at them moment, but non bard single weapon fighting builds do more damage then bards. I would still take a pale master any day of the week for insta killing due to that they multiple spells and aoe spells that they can use for insta killing. I would also take an enchantment specced wizard for spell based crowd control as well vs a bard. Buffs a warchanter is very strong in and the strongest probably which is fine. Melee based crowd control perhaps, but they still have to work on the fighter trees and monks have a lot of stuff currently so shrug.

It's not often we've agreed on bards over the years.... but I agree with you here in its entirety. Of course your roughest spot above is the "I would also take an enchantment specced wizard for spell based crowd control as well vs a bard" Now Ive played both extensively, and since we are talking PvE, wizards simply have more spells and a properly built, geared, and well played wizzie will be connecting at will (pun unintended).

Some people are really having trouble understanding bards, and CC in particular. This will never, ever change. The devs need to just let the bards loose!!

[MadCookieQueen]

Some people are really having trouble understanding bards, and CC in particular. This will never, ever change. The devs need to just let the bards loose!!

Conversely...some other people are really having trouble understand Bards. They won't be happy until every new build has a Bard splash because Bard has become the new master class, instead of what a Bard truly does.

Bards make a party better they don't dominate the party. They don't take away from the others abilities...they make other better and in such they are better. Bards have a moment to shine but they have a moment to let other shine. There is a balance in D&D and there has to be balance in DDO.

Like it or not...a generalist should never outdo a specialist. Also yeah...an enchantment Wizard should have a DC or two higher than a Bards...but their CC isn't the same as Fascinate because Bards don't have spell pen to contend with. This is a difference and it's important.

Let Bards shine with their unique and beautiful abilities not steal the thunder from everyone else's.

[maddmatt70]

Conversely...some other people are really having trouble understand Bards. They won't be happy until every new build has a Bard splash because Bard has become the new master class, instead of what a Bard truly does.

Bards make a party better they don't dominate the party. They don't take away from the others abilities...they make other better and in such they are better. Bards have a moment to shine but they have a moment to let other shine. There is a balance in D&D and there has to be balance in DDO.

Like it or not...a generalist should never outdo a specialist. Also yeah...an enchantment Wizard should have a DC or two higher than a Bards...but their CC isn't the same as Fascinate because Bards don't have spell pen to contend with. This is a difference and it's important.

Let Bards shine with their unique and beautiful abilities not steal the thunder from everyone else's.

DDO currently is not a game of generalists though it is a game of specialists. Bards need to be able to dominate at something otherwise they will be forever an underpowered unwanted class. I like swashbucklers for being unique and fairly powerful at what they do and spellsingers are nice in this respect as well. I like the warchanter on Lammania quite a bit because they are also powerful at what they do which is enhancing other dps which is why aoe stun and great buffs.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Conversely...some other people are really having trouble understand Bards. They won't be happy until every new build has a Bard splash because Bard has become the new master class, instead of what a Bard truly does.

Bards make a party better they don't dominate the party. They don't take away from the others abilities...they make other better and in such they are better. Bards have a moment to shine but they have a moment to let other shine. There is a balance in D&D and there has to be balance in DDO.

Like it or not...a generalist should never outdo a specialist. Also yeah...an enchantment Wizard should have a DC or two higher than a Bards...but their CC isn't the same as Fascinate because Bards don't have spell pen to contend with. This is a difference and it's important.

Let Bards shine with their unique and beautiful abilities not steal the thunder from everyone else's.

No. Rogue and monk have been the kings of splash for years. Rogue will always hold that spot, till the day they shut the servers down.

Bards CANNOT steal the spotlight in the way you mention. However their main role IS to perform. THAT is what bards do. NOW, they CAN put on a show. Even better, it will be easier for someone who hasnt the years and years of bard player experience to shine. That's truly my #1 reason why I like what the devs have done.

Bards absolutely should be the commanders on the battlefield, and in real time groups. In fact if bards are NOT in charge, they are not optimal, regardless what their stats and gear sit at. They do not need to be the party lead, but they MUST communicate with the party lead and ensure their role is well defined, and in order for party members to be properly buffed and the field to be controlled, they must pay attention to the bard. This is PnP territory here, and with DDO, more people have the chance to feel like they really are playing the role of a bard, D&D style.

Bards control the battlefield, they boost the abilities of their party, and they debuff the baddies. They cannot do all this at once, and they cannot build to max it all out. But, it's high time that bards can get a foothold, and if the role is crowd control, by any means, a bard should be able to perform this art better than anyone else, within their sphere of CHA/perform jurisdiction and trained choices (enhancements/destinies/skills etc). They cannot heal better than Clerics or Favored Souls. They can't build for that. They are not winning the direct damage caster war, wizards and sorcs have that. They do not have spell versatility, wizards have that. Even at crowd control, wizards will reign supreme by sheer number of spells in their spell book. They just wont be the only enchanters in the end game any longer.

Bards get to perform, and at that, they should be the best. Bards are STILL jack of all trades, but the "jacks" are now of a much higher quality. Most importantly THE BARD'S TALE, their value to a party, actually is now BELIEVABLE in more hands than just the best bards in the game.

As someone that has helped so many people build their bards over the years, I feel without a shadow of a doubt, that the next year will bring back many old school bards. And that's exactly the kind of excitement DDO needed. Lets not rain on the bard's parade. Other classes will get their turn.

[SirValentine]

...bards simply need these boosts to have a foot in the door. As long as these boosts pertain to bard enchantment and sonic spells, I am perfectly ok with that. And that's from a D&D purist.

We need to step away from the numbers sometimes and look at it from afar. If a bard who wants to CC can not CC, the bard is not performing and is essentially a doorstop. They lose everything that makes them bards.

I have no problem with Bard (already) having the most powerful (song-based) CC.

But there's no reason for a secondary caster class, which has lots of other abilities, to have SPELL-BASED CC so far ahead of a primary caster that focuses on Enchantment. That's not a foot in the door, that's the Bard slamming the door in everyone else's face.

What this will really do is make every other class unable to effectively use Will-save-based spells at all, once the devs start balancing mobs around Bard's new super-inflated spell DCs.

[SirValentine]

Even at crowd control, wizards will reign supreme by sheer number of spells in their spell book. They just wont be the only enchanters in the end game any longer.

Who says Bards can't do that right now, even without the big DC boosts proposed here?

If this goes through, you're right, wizards won't be the only enchanters in the end game, because Bards will be the only enchanters in the end game.

They cannot heal better than Clerics or Favored Souls.

Wrong. I've run into quite a few Bards who were way better at healing than my Cleric. Weren't you just extolling the virtues of being able to build for different things? Well, news flash: not all Clerics or Favored Souls build to be hjealbots.

[Nayus]

I have no problem with Bard (already) having the most powerful (song-based) CC.

But there's no reason for a secondary caster class, which has lots of other abilities, to have SPELL-BASED CC so far ahead of a primary caster that focuses on Enchantment. That's not a foot in the door, that's the Bard slamming the door in everyone else's face.

What this will really do is make every other class unable to effectively use Will-save-based spells at all, once the devs start balancing mobs around Bard's new super-inflated spell DCs.

Are you seriously saying that Bards have always had the most powerful Crowd Control in this game ever and thus the class doesn't deserve any CC DC-based spell?
I'm sorry but you can't be serious, Bards have always been the weakest class of the game, they just recently became viable MELEES, Bards still need caster-support, I would never build a caster-focused bard because melee is so much better than it.

Who says Bards can't do that right now, even without the big DC boosts proposed here?

They can't, Fascinate breaks when a monster is attacked and their spell DCs are only mediocre.

Wrong. I've run into quite a few Bards who were way better at healing than my Cleric. Weren't you just extolling the virtues of being able to build for different things? Well, news flash: not all Clerics or Favored Souls build to be hjealbots.

And bards do!
No offense and please do not report this but your cleric (or you) is just bad if you're being outperformed by a Bard. There is just absolutely no reason or justification in the world for a Bard to hjeal better than a Cleric. I must again apologize if I offended you but we both know there is a clear difference in competence here.

Kudos for running into "quite a few bards" because before this update I had only met 2 or 3. Unless you're talking about Swashbucklers in which case I am even more amused since they do not even have access to the Hjeal spell.

[SirValentine]

Are you seriously saying that Bards have always had the most powerful Crowd Control in this game ever and thus the class doesn't deserve any CC DC-based spell?

No, I'm saying a secondary caster with highest-DC non-spell CC already, and competitive spell-based DCs already, doesn't deserve to get spell DCs so much higher than all other classes.

...their spell DCs are only mediocre.

Please, tell me more. Since this statement looks like total nonsense to me. How many points of DC behind a Wizard do you think an Enchantment-focused Bard currently is, without these changes?

I think this is the heart of the problem, right here. Do you all seriously expect for Bards to get the same DCs WITHOUT focusing on it, that other classes have to dump all their feats, enhancements & gear into to achieve?

No offense and please do not report this but your cleric (or you) is just bad if you're being outperformed by a Bard. There is just absolutely no reason or justification in the world for a Bard to hjeal better than a Cleric. I must again apologize if I offended you but we both know there is a clear difference in competence here.

You clearly missed the concept. There's nothing unusual about someone who builds to heal out-healing someone who deliberately dumps healing. I'm not "being outperformed" at my build focus; I'm being "outperformed" about something I don't build or gear or play to do.

And pretending you're not insulting me, and pretending to apologize, just because I built a flexible class into something different than you would... Why bother? Skip the phony fake-politeness next time. You're still as wrong as if someone who says all Bards should just be buffers and shouldn't bother with either melee or offensive casting.

[mezzorco]

There's nothing unusual about someone who builds to heal out-healing someone who deliberately dumps healing. I'm not "being outperformed" at my build focus; I'm being "outperformed" about something I don't build or gear or play to do.

I have to intervene here.
You shouldn't state that bards can outperform clerics at healing because a (let's say) melee focused cleric is outperformed by a heavily healing invested bard.
You're comparing potatoes and onions here.

My fighter is outperformed by paladins in melee, but my fighter is an archer. I wouldn't say that paladins can outperform fighters in melee.

Returning to the point, try to compare a bard and a cleric, with similar equipment and both specced to heal. Cleric is better by far.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

....there's no reason for a secondary caster class, which has lots of other abilities, to have SPELL-BASED CC so far ahead of a primary caster that focuses on Enchantment. That's not a foot in the door, that's the Bard slamming the door in everyone else's face.

I completely disagree. The monster gets held or the monster doesn't get held. You have the math to hit your spell or you do not. A higher DC just means the average joe bard will have a better chance to land their spells. That was needed because the truth of the matter is many bards COULD NOT hit their spells. A well geared, focused wizard should have the DC and spell pen in place they need be able to hit any spell they want to use, based on the situation, almost every time. Wizards have far more spells in their spell books. They can cast effectively from SEVEN different schools, and focus on as many as they want. Bard has command of one school. What else could you possibly want?

What this will really do is make every other class unable to effectively use Will-save-based spells at all, once the devs start balancing mobs around Bard's new super-inflated spell DCs.

That's just not the way it will ever be. That is fantasy land. Yes Turbine will recode the game so ONLY BARDS CAN CAST SPELLS. Are you feeling ok Sir?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

If this goes through, you're right, wizards won't be the only enchanters in the end game, because Bards will be the only enchanters in the end game.

Bards will not be the only enchanters in the end game. Good wizards in the end game will kick ass exactly like they do today. This as a brilliant way to give bards a chance to play in EE or the end game, and I'm sorry, but enchantment is the only way THEY COULD have given them this chance. You are so wrong here and you will see once this goes live.

Wrong. I've run into quite a few Bards who were way better at healing than my Cleric. Weren't you just extolling the virtues of being able to build for different things? Well, news flash: not all Clerics or Favored Souls build to be hjealbots.

Im going to level with you. If you did not focus on healing on your Cleric or FvS, a good bard VERY WELL may outheal you. Thats exactly what YOU CHOSE when you built and geared your toon. A good fully specced healer is simply going to outheal a good fully specced healing bard. And they should. Again, no insult to your cleric, Im sure you play a good one.

[SirValentine]

Bards will not be the only enchanters in the end game. Good wizards in the end game will kick ass exactly like they do today.

Oh, sure, good Wizards will still kick ass. But not by being Enchanters, when they'll no longer be able to get competitive DCs.

Im going to level with you. If you did not focus on healing on your Cleric or FvS, a good bard VERY WELL may outheal you. Thats exactly what YOU CHOSE when you built and geared your toon.

Um, yeah; that is just what I said. Thanks for leveling with me by repeating my own words back to me. :-)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

But not by being Enchanters, when they'll no longer be able to get competitive DCs.

It doesnt matter what anyone else's DCs are.. or spell pen for that matter. Its between you and the mobs. If you are talking end game, then good Wizards and Bards will both have their chance to work their magic. One may be better vs a certain type of mob. Average bards and wizards may or may not be able to connect. Its end game, you gotta bring yer A game

[SirValentine]

That was needed because the truth of the matter is many bards COULD NOT hit their spells.

Why do you think this? Bards, right now, without these super-buffs, can get Enchantment DCs pretty close to Wizards, can they not?

If you mean they can't do it without investing build and gear into it, well, neither can Wizards or anyone else. That's neither a surprise nor a problem.

Wizards...can cast effectively from SEVEN different schools, and focus on as many as they want.

That's simply not true. They can really only focus on one, and get somewhere decent on a 2nd. But there simply aren't enough feat or gear slots, etc., to focus on all of them.

Bard has command of one school. What else could you possibly want?

Balanced DCs. Bard DCs that reach only slightly better, or tied, or slightly worse than other classes can reach. I fully agree that "much worse" would be bad, since it would effectively make those abilities useless. Personally, I'd lean towards "slightly worse", since they are not a primary caster class to start with, but I'm not worried if it's "slightly better", since that wouldn't give us the huge balance problem that we'll get with these proposed changes. "Much better" makes everyone else's useless just as much as "much worse" would make the Bard's useless.

That's just not the way it will ever be. That is fantasy land. Yes Turbine will recode the game so ONLY BARDS CAN CAST SPELLS. Are you feeling ok Sir?

I'm feeling fine. Are you? I guess you failed to read the word "effectively", and somehow imagined I said other classes can't cast spells, or that I said Turbine will re-code the game, or something. I'm pretty sure I didn't say any of those things.

When mob Will saves are balanced against new high Bard DCs, how are Wizards (or Sorc/FvS/Clr, for that matter) with DCs at best 6-7 points lower, going to be able to land anything? Or, if they balance it against the DCs attainable by other classes, ignoring Bard's huge advantage, Bards will be able to hit the same DCs without even bothering to invest in it much.

[SirValentine]

It doesnt matter what anyone else's DCs are.. or spell pen for that matter. Its between you and the mobs.

When the devs stat out mobs, they never take into account what player stat values are reachable, is that your contention?

I'm forbidden to reveal why, but I am very certain that contention is false.

And, if it is false, it very much matters what the max reachable DCs are.

Though even if you can get a dev to come out and say that they promise to ignore max Bard DCs and balance only against the much lower Wizard DCs, that still leaves a (different) problem: what other classes have to scrape and claw to reach, Bard would still reach with much less investment. Either way, it's a balance problem.

[Maelodic]

When the devs stat out mobs, they never take into account what player stat values are reachable, is that your contention?

I'm forbidden to reveal why, but I am very certain that contention is false.

And, if it is false, it very much matters what the max reachable DCs are.

Though even if you can get a dev to come out and say that they promise to ignore max Bard DCs and balance only against the much lower Wizard DCs, that still leaves a (different) problem: what other classes have to scrape and claw to reach, Bard would still reach with much less investment. Either way, it's a balance problem.

I, too, am worried that the devs will balance out the new Bard numbers. I've been able to hit a comfortable 65-69 without any past lives on a melee hybrid only using 1 twist and 1 feat for enchant DC on the new spellsinger. I'm sure that makes quite a few wizards/sorcs squirm when they're struggling to hit 60.

The counter argument though, is the lack of damage spells spellsingers will have. They can get their DCs way the hell up there but on the DPS caster end they basically just get Reverberate if they're going for control. You can't get your Evocation DC up to the same level unless you go full caster, and the only thing waiting for you at the end of that tunnel is Greater Shout. Albeit Greater Shout is a great spell, you need to get the DC up to 73+ because endgame fort saves are absolutely ridiculous- it also costs a whole lot of SP so you'll find yourself running out because you have ~1000 less than most other classes.

So in essence, the extra large amount of DCs that spellsinger get are only really capitalized on and possible if you go full spellsinger- and in that, you have a massive lack of DPS options.

I don't agree with everything that Leslie has been saying- and I do hope she takes some more time to pick up some more classes with EE so she obtains a better understand of the current state of the game, but I think the general point she's trying to make is that the reason Bard CC is so grossly disproportionate is because their DPS options are disproportionate in the opposite direction- at least in regards to spells.

Control and melee seems to be the sweet spot at the moment because that's where all your DPS options lie- and getting the DC stat to damage allows things to get a bit out of control. Pumping CHA as high as possible gets both your DC way up there as well as your damage- so any combination of Swash and Spellsinger at the moment is the strongest combination.

Spellsinger/Swashbuckler combination is a bit too strong, probably, but from a purely caster perspective, I don't believe that giving bards a huge advantage on spell DCs is horribly unfair considering their DPS is limited to two SLAs and one spell- all sonic spells. A pure caster bard would have absolutely zero DPS options against monsters that resist sonic- and the casting DPS isn't great to begin with.

Their melee is a bit ridiculous though- CDG is the most openly overpowered ability in the game and I love it. Can't wait to see how they brutally nerf it.