Spellsinger Changes

[katz]

Wow. Way to destroy the value of an Epic Elyd Edge. Thanks for that. And my friends who helped me grind for hundreds of hours thank you as well I’m sure. You might as well hand them out at the door.

This Swashbuckler train-wreck is worse than I expected. So a Warchanter can heal and raise dead, everyone gets to use all martial weapons and wear medium armour, exactly what type of Bard is a Spellsinger intended to be now?

Redundant heals, DC and spell pen on some horrible spells, and maga regen? WOOT!

And don’t say fascinate. You know no one uses it. No matter how you buff it, you will never be able to shake the baffling lack of logic to the tune of “hey, it’s sleeping, it’s even easier to kill now!” into “wait, it’s sleeping, we don’t need to bother.”

You appear to be in the midst of damage control post-Swashbuckler (a novelty that will be forgotten before the summer is over), and are now in the process of creating some sort of nerfed support franken-mele bard (Warchanter), and I don’t even know what to call this Spellsinger gong-show I am in the middle of.

DC and spell-pen for what? Shout and a disco-ball? Am I being punked? OK, you got me. good one!

That’s so hilariously bass-ackwards compared to the value of the—cut completely—Arcane Aid, I’m not even going to bother trying to explain the (lack of) logic at “work” here.

I am truly stunned at how horrible this PrE is now. It was already difficult to work with, but if you dedicated 100% of your stats, enhancements, feats, gear &c to pure support Spellsinger, you could actually make it work quite nicely, but you had to be very dedicated.

My sole motivation as a Spellsinger was to build a character designed solely to enhance the gameplay experience of others. All I see now is a party-trick. I’m glad I read this before my final TR into a support Bard (which I planed to do today). You have successfully made the entire class worthless.

Thanks Swashbuckler. Have a great summer.

wait what?

[Vargouille]

Based on current feedback, we're currently not planning to touch Enthrallment. We might still consider some kind of alterations, but there's enough concern here that integrating it into Fascinate would nerf some current playstyles.

[katz]

awwwww

okay

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

Based on current feedback, we're currently not planning to touch Enthrallment. We might still consider some kind of alterations, but there's enough concern here that integrating it into Fascinate would nerf some current playstyles.

I dont think that the people that dont want them combined understand that there is no nerf.
Once you pick up Enthrall then your Fascinate is Enthrall. Your Enthrall will gain: Music of the Sewers, Music of the Dead, Music of the Makers, and if you have these trained: Haunting Melody, Sharp Note, and if you are in Fatesinger with these trained: Music of the Spider Queen, and Masked Ball. Your Enthralled enemies will be susceptible to the songs Suggestion and Mass Suggestion. The ONLY possible nerf that I can see is Enthrall's icon is changed to Fascinate.

Now... Vargouille if I am incorrect please state as such so that my post doesn't confuse others, but I believe this is the intent of making Enthrall add on to Fascinate.

[HatsuharuZ]

What about Flicker, Varg? I haven't seen any arguments that it should stay.

Edit: Not that I want it to.

[Vargouille]

I dont think that the people that dont want them combined understand that there is no nerf.

If we reduce it to one button, that means they are effectively sharing cooldowns where they weren't before. The scale of the issues differs, but (for instance) this is why Half-Elves give you another copy of the social skills -- in case you want to use them frequently. A related (if somewhat different) example would be Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars.

What about Flicker, Varg? I haven't seen any arguments that it should stay.

There were multiple requests from the players council. Note that we're giving you another explicit option if you don't care for it yourself.

[CaptainSpacePony]

If we reduce it to one button, that means they are effectively sharing cooldowns where they weren't before. The scale of the issues differs, but (for instance) this is why Half-Elves give you another copy of the social skills -- in case you want to use them frequently. A related (if somewhat different) example would be Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars.



There were multiple requests from the players council. Note that we're giving you another explicit option if you don't care for it yourself.

You could just reduce the cool down as an elegant compromise.

[Lauf]

You could just reduce the cool down as an elegant compromise.

why use the same thing twice when you can use two totally different things that just function the same?

I would even go as far as to double the cooldown on enthrall and fascinate, and add 2 more! mesmerize and entrance!

of course they should all function the same, but I'm sure players would enjoy the wider selection of songs to choose from.

[SardaofChaos]

You could just reduce the cool down as an elegant compromise.

On average this would result in being able to use them just as quickly, but would not help anyone who wanted to use them both in quick succession. Whether or not that's a huge issue is up to the people who actually play bards competently, as I am not one of them.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

On average this would result in being able to use them just as quickly, but would not help anyone who wanted to use them both in quick succession. Whether or not that's a huge issue is up to the people who actually play bards competently, as I am not one of them.

The cooldown already is short enough that unless your perform isn't as good as mine your going to have everyone enthralled/fascinated on first try the one or two left are easily capered and otto's irresistabled

[Raoull]

If we reduce it to one button, that means they are effectively sharing cooldowns where they weren't before. The scale of the issues differs, but (for instance) this is why Half-Elves give you another copy of the social skills -- in case you want to use them frequently. A related (if somewhat different) example would be Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars.

Err...you do realize that 10K stars and manyshot don't actually share cooldowns, don't you?

Manyshot is locked out while 10K stars is active, and 10K stars is locked out for 30 seconds after Manyshot is triggered (so the duration of manyshot + 10 seconds), but that is a far cry from the 1 and 2 minute cooldowns the abilities actually have.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Err...you do realize that 10K stars and manyshot don't actually share cooldowns, don't you?

Manyshot is locked out while 10K stars is active, and 10K stars is locked out for 30 seconds after Manyshot is triggered (so the duration of manyshot + 10 seconds), but that is a far cry from the 1 and 2 minute cooldowns the abilities actually have.

That is exactly what he is saying.

[Systern]

Re: Flicker
There were multiple requests from the players council. Note that we're giving you another explicit option if you don't care for it yourself.

Someone asked for it? Really?

How many (false?) assumptions is their request based upon?
A) The code for flicker is a direct cut 'n' paste of the Invisibility Guard on Mabar's Cloak of Night.
B) The Invisibility Guard has a secret, undocumented, rumored resetting of the aggro list on triggering. Because surely Turbine wouldn't release something so useless otherwise.
C) This rumored effect still works after Piloto's pet stealth changes.

For the PC member that asked for this: Cast invisibility on yourself. Sneak up to a monster. It sees you. It beats on you. While invisible. Turning invisible while getting beat on doesn't get you beat on any less. It still knows you're there. It's still beating on you. 6 seconds is not enough time to get anywhere near far away enough to lose aggro. Because it knows where you are. Because it's beating on you.

Remember, In DDO: Blur is 20% concealment. Displacement is 50% concealment. Being-Completely-Frickin-Invisible is 0% concealment.


Enhancements shouldn't just add flavor. Enhancements shouldn't just 'be fun'. Enhancements should, ya know, actually enhance gameplay.

[bbqzor]

Based on current feedback, we're currently not planning to touch Enthrallment. We might still consider some kind of alterations, but there's enough concern here that integrating it into Fascinate would nerf some current playstyles.

What?!?! This is terrible. Who the heck is using it in a way that doesnt work combined? Do people understand what the combination actually means/does? Seriously?

If we reduce it to one button, that means they are effectively sharing cooldowns where they weren't before

Man if this is seriously the reason enthrall (and hence, that entire enhancement line up the side) gets nerfed Im going to be very disappointed.

Look, you are weighing a second fascinate timer (virtually useless) against having enthrall (a non-instant-breaking cc) work on ALL the additional mob types affected by fascinate. Its a no brainer to combine them.

Varg, if you are seriously doing this (and it pains me to even think it would revert to this) there is one other thing you PLEASE need to look at: add a line to every single "fascinate works on xyz" ability to work on enthrallment too. So like, core gives fascainte oozes... also gives enthrall oozes. Fatesinger gives fascinate vermin... also gives enthrall vermin.

Without that adjustment, you just shot spellsinger in the face with both barrels and left it to bleed out. What the heck =/. This ability is the core defining feature of the pre. Its what the actual bard levels (ie, core) progress. Nerfing it like this is backwards and just results in spellsinger going back to a splash situation. Please fix!!!

[DrawingGuy]

Really, if they make Enthrall to work with Fascinate, wouldn't that mean Enthrall would affect the same range of mobs as Fascinate? That would be a nice buff to that ability. The only time I use Enthrall and Fascinate in quick succession is if I'm in a party against a mixed group where I enthrall for the party to hit and pull the next group away and fascinate them. Even when going around just using one ability or the other I never found myself waiting for cooldown for more than a second or two... which is nothing on a class that has Displacement and the spacebar key.

I, for one, vote for Enthrall to be an improvement of Fascinate rather than a separate move.

[Silverleafeon]

For better or for worse, I {PC member} asked for Flicker to be removed and fasicinate merged with enthrall.

[Andoris]

A bunch of us have been discussing the DC's that we will see on Bards with these proposed changes over on the Spell Caster boards: Here

As part of that discussion we mocked up a DC Bard and compared the DC's to a mockup DC Sorc, a real DC Wizard and a real DC Divine (Cleric).

Results of that comparison are below:

Here is the breakdowns of DC based Wizard, Cleric, Sorc and Bard. The mock-ups or links to the builds can be found 3 posts up.

This is not max DC, but rather realistic DCs that you could see in game. DC calculations assume +6 tome, completionist, and epic completionist for all builds and the Spell School order was Necromancy first, Enchantment second, Evocation third priority.

Here are the results:

	Wizard	Sorcerer	Bard	Cleric
Necromancy DC	73	71	75	73
Enchantment DC	66	63	72	NA
Evocation DC	67	66	73	70

Now I realize that the bard spell list is very weak as compared to the Wizard/Sorc or the Divine list, but I do think the DC's are a little on the high side. If you focused Bard DC's to Enchantment or Evocation (which is more realistic) the gap between Bards and the other DC casting classes become even greater.

Again, I realize the Bard spell list is fairly poor, but they can get Wail and it is being proposed that they get Mass Hold Monster. Not to mention, swapping to and Evocation focus and the bard is instantly at 79 DC for soundburst.

We might want to revisit just how high we pump these DC's up.

[Arcanegrin]

A bunch of us have been discussing the DC's that we will see on Bards with these proposed changes over on the Spell Caster boards: Here

As part of that discussion we mocked up a DC Bard and compared the DC's to a mockup DC Sorc, a real DC Wizard and a real DC Divine (Cleric).

Results of that comparison are below:


Now I realize that the bard spell list is very weak as compared to the Wizard/Sorc or the Divine list, but I do think the DC's are a little on the high side. If you focused Bard DC's to Enchantment or Evocation (which is more realistic) the gap between Bards and the other DC casting classes become even greater.

Again, I realize the Bard spell list is fairly poor, but they can get Wail and it is being proposed that they get Mass Hold Monster. Not to mention, swapping to and Evocation focus and the bard is instantly at 79 DC for soundburst.

We might want to revisit just how high we pump these DC's up.

Under that same thread we came to the conclusion that most spell singers interested in a DC based build will choose the "Exalted Angel" epic destiny. It seems like fatesinger may need some modifications. Fatesinger should really be the destiny of choice for some type of bard. I see most swashbucklers going Divine Crusader or Legendary Dreadnought. Not sure where Warchanters will end up but I also don't think that Fatesinger will be the destiny of choice.

[Nandos]

How about as a replacement for Enthrallment, a further improvement to Fascinate in the form of an additional debuff?

Something like: Fascinated creatures are now rooted in place for x seconds or Fascinated creatures are now slowed for x seconds.

[Nandos]

The edit post button just spins and spins and doesn't work for me. If Enthrallment is being made to replace Fascinate and will then work with Haunting Melody, Music of the X etc then that's fine. If it stays its own separate ability that can't be improved in any way, I would prefer it just get deleted and the box made into an improved Fascinate ability like I suggested.