Spellsinger Changes

[IronClan]

Spells are time consuming to make, perhaps surprisingly more time consuming than might be expected (based on this comment, for instance). We can often make several other enhancements (for instance) in the time it takes to make one spell, and certain spells take far longer than that. This doesn't mean new spells are off the table, but making new ones has to be a deliberate choice that it's worth it compared to what else we can deliver to you guys.

I know it's too late to save Shout and Greater shout but can you guys please stop using cyclonic blast spell code for other new spells? I've said it and I'll keep saying it: cyclonic blast based spells (Old Greater Shout, Sun Bolt, Tsunami, Lightning Bolt etc. etc.) are terribly unfun to use, they MISS ALL THE TIME, they must be hard targeted which sucks and they give "you must be facing" misses as well, three strikes.

Now as for spellsinger: casting Greater shout at a Boss and only getting a max of 120 base damage before crit/spell power where someone else is getting 150, just because Shout has a trash CC, is not really "comparable DPS" by itself. Because the bard does not have ANY ALTERNATIVE. No DOT, and also not having any of the other ED spell DPS options (Elemental Burst Sonic does not exist). There's no reason why Druids should be far and away superior to Bards for Spell DPS considering they are a "utility" or "jack of all trades" class as well. But Yet Druids damage dice pwn Bard's.

Either compensate Bard's poor spell selection with more base damage, or give Bards proper options, a DOT, a Persistent AOE, an ED nuke, and make Forced Escape WIS OR CHA, and Make Dirge take Spell power and crit chance.

Then I'm cool with 30 less base damage...

[IronClan]

[/LIST]
Are these cone spells like breath weapons or are these line spells like Lightning Bolt?

I've asked for clarification too... Good luck.

[poltt48]

I know it's too late to save Shout and Greater shout but can you guys please stop using cyclonic blast spell code for other new spells? I've said it and I'll keep saying it: cyclonic blast based spells (Old Greater Shout, Sun Bolt, Tsunami, Lightning Bolt etc. etc.) are terribly unfun to use, they MISS ALL THE TIME, they must be hard targeted which sucks and they give "you must be facing" misses as well, three strikes.

Now as for spellsinger: casting Greater shout at a Boss and only getting a max of 120 base damage before crit/spell power where someone else is getting 150, just because because Shout has a trash CC, is not really "comparable DPS" Because the bard does not have ANY ALTERNATIVE. No DOT, and also not having any of the other ED spell DPS options (Elemental Burst Sonic does not exist). There's no reason why Druids should be far and away superior to Bards for Spell DPS considering they are a "utility" or "jack of all trades" class as well. But Yet Druids damage dice pwn Bard's.

Either compensate Bard's poor spell selection with more base damage, or give Bards proper options, a DOT, a Persistent AOE, an ED nuke, and make Forced Escape WIS OR CHA, and Make Dirge take Spell power and crit chance.

Then I'm cool with 30 less base damage...

Personally I like greater shout much more then the storm horns tier 5 ability. Your talking 100 base damage in sonic and electric on storm horns witch just sucks for a tier 5 ability. Bards do not get electric mod that much. On 28 now I have 428 sonic mod and 102 electric mod witch means that spell would hit for 528 max sonic and 202 electric max on this ability. Druids witch are the other jack of all trades get true neutral on there tier 5 witch is by far one of the strongest spells in the game for mobs 2 away from true neutral deals around same damage unmodded as my modded damage maxes.

[Vargouille]

Well then, how about having a meeting with the dev team to figure out which spells you'd be willing or able to make for us, and PUT IT UP TO A VOTE in the bard community, right here on the official forums.

No better way to hear from as many bards as possible.

We're having that discussion right now.

(We're not likely to try to make a vote out of it, as it's just too complicated, and things are still in flux. Some of the issues are fitting in what is most needed, which changes during these very discussions, and some spells we know would take 5-20 times as long to make as other spells (which is hard to account for in 'votes'), and some of them we might start working on or just write text for that happens to slip to a lamania build (when nothing was actually implemented, and might rhyme with Saul of Wound) and then decide it can't be done in time or we hit technical snags that we didn't anticipate, etc. And this is more than really needs to be said; but no, asking for a vote isn't likely to be fruitful here.)

Spells are admittingly time consuming to make. However, Ive spoken to many many bards over the years (with pretty detailed discussions dating back to 2008) and by far the great majority of them would say "hell yes" to new spells. Many of those who've long put their bard in mothballs have said they would play the class again if new spells were added.

This is like asking if you'd like more icecream or lower taxes: We know that of course everyone would like more spells. It's (mostly) not a question of whether or not it would be desirable or fun for players. It's a matter of priorities. There's more enhancements and enhancement trees and classes and races and Epic Elite balancing and melee vs. casters and more quests and feats and bug fixing and quality of life changes and and and and and and...

Would you like more ice cream OR lower taxes? (We can't tell you up front how much lower or how much ice cream, though.)


Right now, we're trying to support these Bard enhancement trees. This is not a spell pass for bards or anyone else, and isn't likely to become one. There's a chance (read as: stretch goals) we might decide additional spells are important enough for this enhancement buffing to work on them, but that's for the sake of the enhancements, not for the sake of just adding more spells.

[Hafeal]

Spells are admittingly time consuming to make. However, Ive spoken to many many bards over the years (with pretty detailed discussions dating back to 2008) and by far the great majority of them would say "hell yes" to new spells. Many of those who've long put their bard in mothballs have said they would play the class again if new spells were added.

You mean level 6 spells like Summon Monster VI, Mass Ability spells granting a +4 enhancement don't get your Bard blood racing? C'mon, especially in Epics, how do you live without them?

As I said on the PC, new spells are required. At least swap them out for better choices or beef those spells up to scale, especially in Epic content. I love the idea of swapping Implosion for Wail from a spell school persepctive but Wail makes more sense "sound wise". While Shout and Greater Shout are being improved, there isn't enough improvement without a line of Sonic spell Power, similar to Sorcs or Wizzies, for Hard, Elite and Epic content, I suggested this:

Tier 1: +10 Sonic SP, +1 DC casting Sonic spell (or option to take Sonic Blast SLA)
Tier 2: Spell Crit +4% on Sonic spells (get rid of will save option)
Tier 3: +5 Sonic SP, +1 DC casting Sonic Spell, +1% Crit Sonic spells (choice v. reviving verse)
Tier 4: +5 Sonic SP, +1 DC casting Sonic Spell, +1% Crit Sonic spells (choice v. frolic)
Tier 5: Power of Sonic: +15 Sonic SP.

...Unless you are in a static group that understand the power of Bard song, you will hardly ever get to use these abilities with any efficiency.

THAT is the issue. The way the game is played, using the ability as you like makes it a limited use ability for most game players and their play styles. If the idea, is to make Bards a better option, here is my quote on the PC:

What I am getting at, as a practical matter, it would be nice to have a more visual debuff that is not simply cc or a reduction to Will saves. How about visuals to show a song hitting for things like damage reduction? Crit reduction? Slow? More visual verification of conditions like shaken, cowering, frightened, deafened, dazed and confused? Perhaps Bards would be more useful to the masses if players could see more of their effectiveness.

Enthrallment is "ok" but you are using it for a debuff to Will saves. In groups, if you mesmerize, the groups aoe's will unmesmerize faster than you blink and, again, the -2 will save isn't doing much. Bards could use something on the screen for people to say, "Oh, hey, the Bard did that; that was cool."

Bards need a better debuff song or spell options - an improved "no save" slow or crushing despair for example. I am all for a Sonic DoT and that was suggested on Council as well.

Look, until the game is filled with everyone playing Bards instead of Monk splashes, even these improvements are not "over-powering" the class. It is still a support class whose ability to solo is challenged beyond Normal, especially in quests requiring nothing but killing.

[tiamat1985]

I love Fascinate and Enthrallment too. Right now we have 2 options, if you are going to merge them at least i hope you will reduce the Fascinate cooldown! Now i can stop 2 large groups of monsters at the same times and i'm really afraid to lose this capability.

[IronClan]

Personally I like greater shout much more then the storm horns tier 5 ability. Your talking 100 base damage in sonic and electric on storm horns witch just sucks for a tier 5 ability. Bards do not get electric mod that much. On 28 now I have 428 sonic mod and 102 electric mod witch means that spell would hit for 528 max sonic and 202 electric max on this ability. Druids witch are the other jack of all trades get true neutral on there tier 5 witch is by far one of the strongest spells in the game for mobs 2 away from true neutral deals around same damage unmodded as my modded damage maxes.

Horn of thunder appears to be an AOE, greater shout appears to be the same old "cyclonic blast with a different graphic" single target spell with pretend AOE along a line.

[CeltEireson]

Look, until the game is filled with everyone playing Bards instead of Monk splashes, even these improvements are not "over-powering" the class. It is still a support class whose ability to solo is challenged beyond Normal, especially in quests requiring nothing but killing.

Not commenting on whether the revised tree is good or bad, just on your last statement. I don't think all classes should necessarily be as good at soloing as every other, although admittedly currently getting in groups is harder than it used to be, I don't think there's a problem with a class (or in this case a tree) that does best as part of a group.

[CaptainSpacePony]

We're willing to hear differing opinions on this. By and large our perception is that most players would prefer this combined with Fascinate, but if there's many players who would prefer it separate we're willing to listen.

IMO enthrall should be a modifier that improves fascinate. I see no reason for separate songs.

[alancarp]

Would you like more ice cream OR lower taxes? (We can't tell you up front how much lower or how much ice cream, though.)

I can haz ice cream? Cool!!

[katz]

[BD_]

I'm one of the players that would prefer Enthrall and Fascinate to be merged, and always heard the same from fellow bards in-game as well, but maybe I'm missing some upside for them being separate. Bugs aside, is there any situation where it's better to use fascinate than enthrall?

Currently Fascinate has preform +d20 DC while enthrall has preform DC - although for most that care enough to get enthrall, this probably isn't an issue at all.

[oberon131313]

Another reason to (potentially) keep enthrall and fascinate separate is this scenario:

I enthrall a group of mobs.
I sing suggestion/mass suggestion song.
I now have at least 1 fascinated mob that is also charmed, rendering it now unkillable and still enthralled, unless some enemy mob happens to still be awake and leaves off attacking me to go hit its former companion.

[bbqzor]

Based on your and Player Council Feedback, here's the changes we're currently considering for Spellsinger enhancements. Note that this is in a slightly different format than some previous editions; the original version is listed for many enhancements with changes below in red.

Feedback ahoy!

Important related changes:

Shout is fine, but should probably cost 12 mana. Its a lv4 for sor/wiz... and lets be honest. If there was any spell level that had too many good spells for them, its lv4. Also, sonic is, hands down, the hardest one to raise. The odds of fireball getting replaced by shout because its 3 sp less base cost... yea no. Not a risk 12 sp is double what it used to be for bards, and thats plenty. I know it does more dps, and should cost more, but bards are very limited on mana. A 250% cost increase is a bit much. Go with 12. If some sor/wiz wants to spaz over 3 mana a cast and go here to try and be efficient okay fine.... seems to me thats doing it wrong anyhow.

Greater Shout, being changed to actual stun (like sound burst, where theyre helpless) is critical to making this actually viable. And raising the damage up so that its actually a DPS spell is again a nice change. Here the full 30 mana is fine. Its double what bards used to pay (like I think reg shout should be), but by doing more damage and applying helpless, thats fair. If anything this is the one I would eye for other classes as lv8 is not nearly so competitive with choices as lv4 is. But if it gets much over 30 mana, bards wont be able to use it. The good news is, sor/wiz can already do things like mass hold which apply the same helpless, but over a larger area and for longer than greater shout, so I dont think theres much of a risk. Itll be good, but not broken good. I think its fine as stated and costed.

Core Abilities

Since its all the same will just say this once, the +1DC per core is perfect. It covers the heighten/spell level loss almost exactly and doesnt mess up anything that was previously out there. This is exactly what I like to see, props.

Tier One

Of the things staying the same, I think thats completely fine. They were all okay as-is by good margins. I would throw out that it might be cool to see something like Charlatan grant -5% spell agro on the third tier. Spellsingers got some offense this round but they wont want agro, and its a cool T1 kicker for 3 ranks. Plus it gives people who multiclass bard something they might like. Just a play on some of the other +threat-at-rank-3 enhancements out there, only spellsinger style. And, its thematic for a charlatan =p

Nuking the Wand enhancements into one combined one is just plain good design and I hope eventually all trees get that treatment.

Sonic Blast SLA, youre my hero! Assuming legit cost/cd values, this is a great add.

Overall it was a good tier before, but this certainly adds a lot. That wand thing was a horrible trap and a sonic blast sla will quickly earn a spot on my hotbar.

Tier Two

Sharp Note, yes, needs to be longer. Singing songs every 20-60 secs is too much micro with everything else that should be going on, especially for a spellsinger. Additionally, Ill go on record saying that party wide is probably necessary as well. The drawbacks are there, bleed doesnt work on lots of mob types, it doesnt benefit casters and likely the spellsinger, it probably wont stack with itself on the mob meaning its just 5 stacks no matter how many people apply it, etc. Thats enough of a limitation that making you target people and refresh it all the time is a waste of everyones brainpower. Just make it a fire and forget buff song like the others (as a kicker to competence is fine, provided the kicker hits everyone in range).

Flicker.. at least Willfill is a decent second choice. Fair compromise for everyones tastes I suppose, so those that like it can keep it. But cutting the group version is a good move, thank you.

Suggestion SLA, yea we need another option here. With all the other things bards have, especially spellsingers, this is one they just dont need. I welcome the chance to see what your other choice is, as besides sound burst I cant think of one I like, and Im not sure that one is a good idea for a variety of reasons.

Wand/Scroll Mastery, yes combo-ing them is good for people who are into that.

And Marigold crown was okay before.

This tier hmm... if sharp note goes to group buff, and suggestion gets another option, okay fine. As is though, much like before, I dont feel a lot of draw on this tier and would probably fill in other stuff (as I did on my singer). Its getting there... but needs that SLA choice to be appealing most of all I think. Thats the PREs focus, even if sharp note is made to work well.

Tier Three

Enthrallment, FINALLY. This is exactly whats needed. One button, hit all the mob types youre permitted, with the best version youre permitted. Please verify this plays nice with Vermin from Fatesinger, and call it a day. The ability will finally see a lot of good solid use on the cc fronts, across much content.

Reviving Verse yea improve is right. Ive thought of some ideas like cures, raises, etc and just nothing fits well, given that heal comes later on without being OP next to clerics save one. How about just restoration, three tiers for lesser/reg/greater. Have it use a song. Thats something that fits well as many other classes have similar kinds of things available, and its something that Heal doesnt do later. Plus, they already have it in scroll from anyhow, so this is just a convenient way to get it without mucking about with scroll swaps. Name even fits. Thatd be my vote.

Raucous Refrain, good riddance, lolz =p

Shout SLA, perfect. Another gold addition for sure, assuming reasonably cost/cd values.

Spellsong Trance and Ability Score okay these are fine, always have been, carry on.

Good tier. I really like the restoration idea the more I think about it, and about how spellsinger plays, and about what kinds of threats carry weight as you go. It gives spellsingers some use in places like undead missions or beholder fights where their other cc spells and fort stuns wont do much. In those areas, they can switch to song undead enthrallment now and play curer healer. Thats some solid flexibility and I like it. Provided the resto-reviving verse thing is in, great tier! Without it, still good tier, but youll still be left futzing with scrolls. I think the hallmarks of good PRE are seamless play and using a song for it is elegant and fitting. Just saying =p.

Tier Four

Sustaining Song, Im calling you out. Assuming its fixed to work on the group, it STILL needs to heal a legit value. I had previous suggested perform ranks (not skill, ranks, so 23/tick tops) and I hold to that idea, until I see a better one. But 4-6 or whatever it is per tick... go home sustaining song youre drunk.

Arcane Aid seems an odd cut, but Ive rarely seen it taken, more rarely seen it used, and frankly it doesnt need to be there or in game. With Arcane Might lasting longer, I think thats good enough, provided its bonus factors into spell pen too (which at last recollection it did, but havent tested anytime recently).

Frolic is an odd ability... any chance of an adjustment? Maybe make the FOM a group buff like sharp note was suggested? Lets face it, bards have the spell, and single targeting 3 min FOM on the group just to avoid dispels is time consuming and painful. Just make this hit the whole group for one use, and it gives song-fom a viable form of life. Otherwise it just wont see any use, much like it doesnt now (Ive used it once, one time, ever since it went in... lol =/).

Spell Pen / Ability Score okay yea good stuff move along.

Overall... hrm. Sustaining Song needs to heal legitimate values. And Frolic needs some quality of life considerations to see the light of day. Otherwise, okay tier... bit lacking for T4 perhaps but I think if sustaining song was actual healing, and bards got group FoM (only class that would) to save a spell slot and the mana it costs, that would actually be quite appealing. I strongly urge those two changes to keep T4 as amazing as the others.

Tier Five

Song of Capering, okay, instant cast I would load up on lama and try. Is the will save still perform DC based? Does it bypass SR? Is it still hyper touch range, or is there some give? Etc.

Studies/Prodigy/Spellsong Vigor, all good as they are. Ill throw my hat in the ring saying Vigor should be group based for quality of life. Give it two hotkeys even, or two tiers. One, single target for 2 AP just as it is costing 1 song. And a second tier, for another 2 AP, which costs 2 songs but hits the whole group. Or something. Just save everyones headaches.

SLA Multiselector: Oh boy, tough call here. Obviously intended for a CC option and a DPS option, and both are really really tempting. Which is good I guess. But I really wish they could take both heh. Cant complain about either though, good additions for sure.

This tier is as it was, pretty good. Capering being instant means the other variables need quantifying (for me, I havent used it in a long time because that line was lame, Im sure others know it well) but if its pretty useable then good. Spellsong Vigor needs a group version just for QoL, Ill pay 2 songs for it (3 starts to get punative because group size varies a lot) or 2 more AP but at least give us the option. And the SLAs, good adds, those are really good for making singers relevant even at cap. Props.

.....................

Overall, great tree. Again, exactly what should have happened. Happy with it, provided some further adjustments are made as noted. Good work, looking forward to next draft.

Some comments from the thread:

We're willing to consider the possibility of a Sonic DOT here. Note that as a Tier 2 ability this isn't going to be something that stacks up against Eladar's Electric Surge or Niac's Biting Cold.

Reasonable and acceptable. It will give singers a way to contribute on boss fights as they use their other support abilities to cc and heal. I also like that its not AE (like every, single, other, SLA, they, have) meaning it plays nice with Fascinate. You know, that OTHER ability they got all those bonuses to =p. Sign me up for the sonic dot.

We'll consider changing it. I'll be semantic and say it's not a fix, since it's not broken.

In the OP it says, and I quote, "Sustaining Song: Expend a Song to apply a temporary fast-healing effect to all nearby allies. It lasts for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level." Note the indicated text there. Not sure how that could imply anything but group, but I can also be semantic and say I dont care if its a fix or a change or an ancient alien idea from the guy with the hair on History. But it should be a group regen song, somewhat similar to (but obviously much less powerful than) radiant servant aura. It was group regen since its original inception way back in shroud days, and it would be fitting still today. Either perform ranks per tick, or bard level per tick if you think multiclass with max perform ranks is op. But 20/tick on a 20 bard on the group is still small potatoes, and would go a long way to seeing the button ever get pressed during play.

This consciously presents a choice between choosing high power DPS vs. Crowd Control. Spellcasting trees generally don't get both as tier 5 abilities, so the onus is on whoever wants this tree to be different to convince us why. (It would probably also mean we make the SLAs longer cooldown or more SP if you can get both.)

At the risk of sounding greedy... I would like to see both versions presented (the selector cost/cd, and the get-both cost/cd). I honestly can see pros and cons for both, and without hard date its impossible to choose because both are cool! I think the selector one as written is probably the smarter move, loathe as I am to admit it, simply because I feel that if both were there, they would have punitive stats despite the increased AP costs, resulting in everyone losing. But, Id still like to see both, and perhaps make an informed decision.

We're willing to hear differing opinions on this. By and large our perception is that most players would prefer this combined with Fascinate, but if there's many players who would prefer it separate we're willing to listen.

Please no, anyone who uses exclusively Enthrall just got buffed even if they dont see it... Enthrall now works on all those other mob types. Keep them combo'd up. Its much better for everyone. Seriously. Keep the combo.

Thats it. Good ideas so far, actually tentatively hopeful about the bard changes. Cheers.

[N-0cturn]

I am mostly happy with the tree. More spells would be awesome but this is already more than I expected.

Some things:

- One of the main issues for Spellsinger was boss DPS and the current implementation does not help much with it. I think a sonic DOT is really necessary even if it is not as powerful as existing ones. Together with some melee DPS it would provide the Spellsinger a decent DPS contribution.

- Song of Arcane Might: Since the Bard would already be at max caster level for all his new shiny DPS spells I would add +1 max caster level as well.

- Because the last two points are a bit negative I want to point out that I really like some of the other changes in the tree (instant Song of Capering, Mass Hold, Shout changes, etc.)

Reviving Verse: +1/2/3 saving throws vs. Sleep, Paralysis, Exhaustion, and Energy Drain.

Stretch Goal: Improve?

I really had to laugh when I read this. For me this is the worst ability in the SS tree, probably the worst enhancement of all trees. So yes, please improve it .


- Willful / Flicker: I never considered taking Flicker and I am not exited about a minor bonus to will saves as well. If you data suggests that some player use Flicker and you wanted to give another option because many people consider it useless then I applaud the idea. But + 1/2/3 will saves nothing I would bother with on a bard and I have no idea why you would describe it as an "defensive option". That is a huge overstatement.

I think adding a minor Incorporeal chance to flicker would improve it enough for people to consider it. Maybe 20%, so 10% above the item. Since it would only be on after the guard triggered I don't think that would be too much. Or 15% if Flicker triggers often.

[HastyPudding]

YESSSS!!!!

I've been waiting for Spellsingers to become stronger. I simply cannot wait to TR my sorc back into one!

Core Abilities:
- I like the +1 DC's here. Bard really has trouble with DC's as they don't have the room for a ton of enchantment spell focus feats like wizards do.

- The +4 charisma in the capstone was a surprise, but once again, bards need all the help they can get if they're going for a spellcaster. THIS is what all capstones should be like; a strong, powerful enhancement that personifies the class tree so it's worth at least considering a pure class.

Tier 1:
- Sonic Blast SLA! YES! Bards needed this back in Update 19. Spellsingers are among the lowest tiers of damage output in the game, they need some love in this department.

Tier 2:
- Sharp Note: this really needed a duration increase. Singing songs every minute is just so frustrating. It's a main reason why people don't like playing bards becuase nobody wants to sit around for 5 minutes waiting for them to finish their 4 movement symphonies.

- Suggestion SLA would be nice. You could add a Daze Monster or Hypnotic Pattern SLA, as well, since they are both 2nd level spells that bards get and are also enchantment, which fits in with the theme of the spellsinger.

Tier 3:
- Shout SLA! YES! Another thing that spellsinger needed back in Update 19. Bring on the sonic spellpower!

- Raucous Refrain and Reviving Verse are probably two of the most useless enhancements in the game. Just remove them both and add something else. There's just no way to improve upon these.

Tier 4:
- Looks pretty good, here. Maybe add a multiselector metamagic choice, like other spellcasters?

Tier 5:
- Mass Hold SLA? Can we haz? I love it! I just want to know how its DC will work, however. Would it be considered a level 6 bard spell, seeing as they don't have 9 spell levels and are always -3 DC behind other casters?

- Spellsong Vigor really does need to be aoe. It makes a bard's life 10x easier not having to chase after spellcasters or lose a song when the ally goes behind an obstacle.


General suggestions:
- Bards really are annoying to play due to their huge variety of songs, and many songs having different durations. There should be a balance here, such as making all songs the same duration or creating an additional song called Refrain, that refreshes the duration of all songs currently buffed to nearby party members.

- Spellsinger is basically a crowd control/sonic spellcaster with moderate healing abilities. They need a line of enhancements that increases sonic spellpower or sonic critical chance. Sonic spells are hardly high end damage, but this would give the spellsinger at least some damage output through spells.

- Wail of the Banshee. Other than an aoe negative level machine, I see no point in having this as a bard spell. Bards only get 4 top tier spells, and there are several very good ones to take.

- Adding a sonic DoT spell into the game wouldn't be a bad idea. Spellsingers are little more than healers against bosses.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

I think that bards in general need new lvl 5/6 spells. I know that giving them brand new spells is a lot of work so I suggest taking some of the spells from other classes. Also don't know how hard it would be to implement Call Thunder Storm (same animation and workings as call lightning storm just using sonic dmg instead) or Thunder Clap (call lightning as a sonic version). Sonic Dot would be pretty easy I think, make dirge scale to spell power, cha, or perform (ofc thats fatesinger but would give bards a worthwhile dot) Along the lines of ED's and all the sonic buffs that people are talking about... Primal Scream is already hitting incredibly hard with no save with a mere 300 sonic spell power, imagine having the 500-700 spell power and huge crit chance... I think that bards and artificers are the two classes designed to have scrolls in their main hand most of the time, perhaps a buff to bards wielding scrolls? my 2 cents as a Healing bard

[dunklezhan]

We're willing to hear differing opinions on this. By and large our perception is that most players would prefer this combined with Fascinate, but if there's many players who would prefer it separate we're willing to listen.

I don't care if they're merged. I DO care that Enthrall doesn't currently get the 'passives' re music of makers etc once you take those enhancements. That really does feel wrong to me. So merge them or don't merge them, but I would much, much prefer that the music of makers, undead song etc that currently only proc from Fascinate could proc from both - I see Enthrall as only another buff to fascinate, like Music of Makers just buffs it to work on other stuff. In prior incarnations of the bard enhancements, those were separate songs too, and while that was the case it was fine. But it isn't the case any more and enthrall not working 'on top' of fascinate feels like a bug not a feature. Think 'how would a new player expect that to work?'

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

We're having that discussion right now.

(We're not likely to try to make a vote out of it, as it's just too complicated, and things are still in flux. Some of the issues are fitting in what is most needed, which changes during these very discussions, and some spells we know would take 5-20 times as long to make as other spells (which is hard to account for in 'votes'), and some of them we might start working on or just write text for that happens to slip to a lamania build (when nothing was actually implemented, and might rhyme with Saul of Wound) and then decide it can't be done in time or we hit technical snags that we didn't anticipate, etc. And this is more than really needs to be said; but no, asking for a vote isn't likely to be fruitful here.)

Well I wasn't expecting an up/down vote on which spells should be added, due to the time consumption which would be involved and the vast ranges of time it would take to develop these spells. What I WAS hoping for was two things: 1. a dev discussion of what really could be added that isnt there now. This seems to be happening, which is very positive and promising news. 2. A meeting resulting in as many additions to spells and abilities that can reasonbly be developed to breathe life into a class long forgotten about. ED enhancements were a decent addition, but it felt like a new coat of paint on an 1850 house, its still an 1850 house.

This is like asking if you'd like more icecream or lower taxes: We know that of course everyone would like more spells. It's (mostly) not a question of whether or not it would be desirable or fun for players. It's a matter of priorities. There's more enhancements and enhancement trees and classes and races and Epic Elite balancing and melee vs. casters and more quests and feats and bug fixing and quality of life changes and and and and and and...

Would you like more ice cream OR lower taxes? (We can't tell you up front how much lower or how much ice cream, though.)

Hahaha. Well, maybe if WB hired more ice cream developers and more tax auditors and marketers, we can have more ice cream and more tax cuts!! By the way, you just made me hungry for a chocolate ice cream with some hot fudge and maraschino cherries and chocolate sprinkles, thanks! Now where are those dang dairy queen coupons, can never find 'em when I need 'em...

Right now, we're trying to support these Bard enhancement trees. This is not a spell pass for bards or anyone else, and isn't likely to become one. There's a chance (read as: stretch goals) we might decide additional spells are important enough for this enhancement buffing to work on them, but that's for the sake of the enhancements, not for the sake of just adding more spells.

You are doing a great job. Something else is needed though. Really need a new spell or two (including a sonic DOT), and that MEDLEY. We need a solution to length of time to buff the party. I know ya'll can do it!

[Hendrik]

no offense to Hendrik and DazagUlf intended at all, but i cannot quite fathom how one WOULDN'T want enthrall to be merged with fascinate. one single song that stops oozes, undead, constructs, and vermin, AND you can sing suggestion afterward, AND have a chance to not break on damage, AND lower their saves? instead of needing to sing fascinate for most of that, and enthrall for just the last 2 things on the list? yes please! this piece of news of potentially combining enthrall + fascinate literally put a smile on my face as i was reading.


edit: to those who want to keep them separate... i am curious why. this is not a challenge, i am curious as to your reasoning. perhaps you can sway me, perhaps i can sway you. discuss!

Again, as I said, IF that is how they are to be combined, I am OK with it.

However, we do not know how they will be combined or if effects from Enthrall will be kept. To combine the two AND keep all the perks from Enthrall is an extremely powerful, nearly OP, ability.

I do not want to loose a far superior ability to a lesser because some do not use it, have taken it, or understand how it is used - and not directed at you katz.

If anything from Enthrall is to be lost in the merger into Fascinate, I am against it. If nothing is lost, sure. I will happily use the nearly OP Song and giggle the whole time I render EE content trivial.