Spellsinger Changes

[-Zephyr-]

We'll consider changing it. I'll be semantic and say it's not a fix, since it's not broken.

The description clearly says it's supposed to apply to all nearby allies. And that's how it used to work, too. And I don't believe any release note said it was now single target. And that's "not broken"?

[PsychoBlonde]

Okay I like some of these changes. Some other things would change though. Get rid of flicker all together. Ability is useless don't know anyone who takes it. Marigold Crown could probly be bumped up to 2 to DC or lower cost to only 1 enhancement point. Reviving Verse defently needs to be improved another that no one takes. Sustaining Song could use a over hall too it is really weak for a tier 4 ability. How come horn of thunder does so little damage as a tier 5 ability greater shout almost does as much damage especially since bards don't get much electric mod.

I agree with a lot of this, and Haunting Melody is still godawful and pointless . . . and why does it even MENTION skill checks?! When was the last time anyone saw a monster roll a SKILL CHECK except maybe balance. Pshaw. Make it do something USEFUL like "fascinated enemies cannot use abilities or spells for 5/10/15 seconds". NOW you have something quite nice that makes fascinate cool even if people break everything out of it immediately.

As for reviving verse . . . replace this with an effect that is similar to cleric radiant servant burst. Minor healing + removes some neg levels + removes exhaustion/fatigue + removes some ability damage + removes sleep/paralysis. THAT'S a useful ability.

And for crying out loud make it so Sustaining Song is affected by positive spellpower. PLEASE.

Capstone looks good, though . . . I may have a hard time deciding whether to go with that or Swashbuckler, particularly once the MRR changes come along and evasion isn't the be-all, end-all of high level survival. I might even consider doing some kind of armored bard, making that "you can wear medium armor" ability on Warchanter not a total waste of space.

[unbongwah]

Isn't Otto's Irresistable Dance already much better than that since it has no save?

OID has no save but does have a Spell Resistance check; Capering is the other way around - DC check (based on Perform skill which can be sky-high) but no Spell Pen (since it's a song, not a spell). If you've ever had trouble landing OID on EE drow, then used Capering on them instead, you'd immediately understand why one is sometimes better than the other.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

OID has no save but does have a Spell Resistance check; Capering is the other way around - DC check (based on Perform skill which can be sky-high) but no Spell Pen (since it's a song, not a spell). If you've ever had trouble landing OID on EE drow, then used Capering on them instead, you'd immediately understand why one is sometimes better than the other.

True dat. This is exactly what I do.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I know I am a bit slow so I am probably just missing something. Please explain to me why the Tier 5 (cap) ability Song of Capering exists? Isn't Otto's Irresistable Dance already much better than that since it has no save?

Doesn't have an SR check, you don't have to be in touch range, uses songs instead of SP.

Is it an SLA? Is that why it's worth using up a Tier 5 slot ? Because it looks like it is just a song that allows a save and is worse than a spell the bard can already access.

It's an instant cast song (soon will be instant cast again). It's a nice ability to have, especially if you are sitting on top of a large pile of songs. The save is Perform based iirc, so I wouldn't worry about enemies making their save.

Maybe it is for splash builds that want to be able to dance bad guys but only want to take five levels of Bard? Still, that's more than 20 AP.

30 AP for access for a tier 5 ability. Either way, it's going to be of some use for certain Bard builds but it's not going to be the sort of ability that people splash Bard for.

OID has no save but does have a Spell Resistance check; Capering is the other way around - DC check (based on Perform skill which can be sky-high) but no Spell Pen (since it's a song, not a spell). If you've ever had trouble landing OID on EE drow, then used Capering on them instead, you'd immediately understand why one is sometimes better than the other.

Ninja'd.

[Rautis]

These are very strong buffs to Spellsingers. I like the CC vs. DPS multiselectors. I agree that Sustaining Song should be stronger. Why was arcane aid cut?

Also, I hope bleed finally bypasses damage reduction(atleast if the weapon causing it does so). Otherwise change to Sharp Note can make it less useful in places with damage reduction. It also used to be party wide buff when doing fascinate.

[Desonde]

Core Abilities[*]5 AP, class level 3:

• Ooze Song: Fascinate now affects Oozes.
• +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
  

[*]10 AP, class level 6:

• Music of the Dead: Fascinate now affects Undead .
• +1 Bard Spell Caster DC

[*]20 AP, class level 12:

• Music of the Makers:Fascinate now also affects Constructs.
• +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
  

I think the expanding of what Fascinate targets doesn't warrant being tied to core abilities, especially if it doesn't also effect enthrallment. Much better to be a three rank T3 ability.

The +1 DC is really nice, but perhaps adding +10 Positive Energy Spell Power, +10 Sonic Spell Power, +10% increased duration to enhancement spells.

[*]30 AP, class level 18:

• Virtuoso: You regenerate 1 Song every 5 minutes. +2 Songs per rest. +20% bard song duration.
• +1 Bard Spell Caster DC

5 min is a bit long, especially for a Bard 18 ability.

[*]41 AP, class level 20: Maestro:

• +4 Charisma
• +25 Universal Spellpower
• +2 Songs per rest.
• Heal and Wailing Banshee are added to your Bard Spellbook.
• Increased from +2 Charisma, +10 Spellpower
  

Still not enough to make me even consider pure bard, especially since being 20 Bard means that by the time you can use Wail of the Banshee it's only going to have a 5% effectiveness.

[*]Marigold Crown: (Multiple Choice) Grants +1 to the DCs and caster level of Enchantment, Illusion, or Evocation spells.

Nice skill, but just pointing out that it also ignores the Cap Stones new spell.

Tier Three[*]Enthrallment: Expend a Song to enthrall enemies. Enthralled enemies are mesmerized, with a chance of breaking free when damaged, and suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level, even after being disrupted from their reverie. Negated on a Will save vs. Perform.

• Stretch goal: Change to be an add-on to Fascinate.
  

The stretch goal is going to have to be met if you want to keep the fascinate abilities in the Core.

[*]Reviving Verse: +1/2/3 saving throws vs. Sleep, Paralysis, Exhaustion, and Energy Drain.

• Stretch Goal: Improve?
  

Improve, Sleep isn't really an issue since if you are hit you can break the effect, paralysis has constant saves to break free (frolic will also stop this), and Exhaustion and Energy Drain are annoying because they have very long durations [up to 3min and 1min*neg levels] where if you roll a 1 against the save there is no further save to break away from the duration [and Energy Drain exponentially reduces your ability to save from it].

Remove it and substitute with the Fascinate expansion.

Tier Five[*]NEW: Multiselector:

• Mass Hold SLA (Normally a level 9 Sorc/Wiz spell)
• NEW: Horn of Thunder: Blast your foes with 1d4 Sonic and 1d4 Electric damage per caster level. Creatures making a Reflex save take half damage. \\n\\nMax caster level: 25

Mass Hold is going to be very very strong at level 12.

[Vargouille]

Why was arcane aid cut?

Generally, the cut abilities were results of them being (terribly) unpopular with players, at least in our perception. We explicitly listed the old version and changes here to remind people what was in case you want to fight for keeping a particular ability. (This already happened with Council feedback, though I'm avoiding the details while the public is still getting their first crack at responding to these ideas.)

[geoffhanna]

OID has no save but does have a Spell Resistance check; Capering is the other way around - DC check (based on Perform skill which can be sky-high) but no Spell Pen (since it's a song, not a spell). If you've ever had trouble landing OID on EE drow, then used Capering on them instead, you'd immediately understand why one is sometimes better than the other.

Okay, it is not a spell. So ... sure, doesn't mess with spell penetration. Also probably ignores beholder anti-magic.

But it is still a duplicative ability, in a tier 5 slot. I'd rather have something new and unique there.

[Mryal]

Interesting changes! I agree with the sonic DOT others suggested.Its a tier 2 yes, but on a druid creeping cold SLA is also tier 2, and its a good spell still.
Since youre interested in making Evocation usefull and the cores are giving + bard spell DCs, why not change marigold crown and Prodigy to grant +bard spell DCs instead.Why is that? Bards barely have room for spell focus feats, you may argue that this allows you to be a CC focused bard and have some dps aswell.But as far as im concerned isnt that the idea? Other classes that can CC all have DPS options aswell.

Tier 5 SLAs : Do add both of em at once.Again, youre supposed to have DPS options even as a CC SS bard.Wizards, Sorcerers and Druids can be CC speccs and have plenty DPS options aswell, SS bard cannot.

Regarding spellsong vigor : It doesnt has to be changed to AOE if you allow Elyd Edge to convert it to AOE.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

They'll keep increasing as you gain spellpower (or possibly max caster levels). These are quite in line with what other spellcasting trees get; you'll have to convince us that we should change all spellcasting trees and that tier 1 abilities should all scale well into end game and be as viable as epic spells. While we understand there are drawbacks to maximum caster levels (confusion and comprehension being the primary ones), from a design perspective the fact that these don't continue to progress as fast as higher level spells is a feature, not a drawback.

Yeah, I get that. Can you at least make it better than the spell, though? A slightly higher cap? Sonic spells are lousy enough as-is that there really needs to be a draw to the SLA versions to seriously consider them. And "Eh, better'n Flicker..." isn't much of a draw. Significantly reduced cooltimes and SP cost would be a good start (and I believe fairly standard with SLAs versus actual spells?) but a higher cap would be even better.

We're willing to consider the possibility of a Sonic DOT here. Note that as a Tier 2 ability this isn't going to be something that stacks up against Eladar's Electric Surge or Niac's Biting Cold.

Honestly, anything's better than we currently have! Even if it didn't stack, a semi-decent DoT would be a godsend. Would you consider something along the lines of (even a tad worse than) Eladar's or Niac's at a higher tier instead?

We'll consider changing it. I'll be semantic and say it's not a fix, since it's not broken.

Um. Yes, it is. Sustaining Song is AoE. It was AoE when I made my first Virtuoso (my second-ever character, back in '09). It was AoE when you did the enhancement pass and basically combined Virt and Spellsinger. It was AoE until you fixed Spellsong Vigor back to single-target... and SS was dragged along for the ride. The tooltip says AoE, it's always said AoE, it's always *been* AoE until you broke it while fixing Vigor (which, honestly, didn't need fixing. That was just fine and not at all OP as AoE, but that's another discussion).

It would also be nice, as others have mentioned, if *something* (positive spellpower, sonic spellpower since it's technically a song, class/caster levels, etc.) improved it. Other than the duration, there's absolutely no difference between the procs you get from Sustaining Song as a capped pure bard with 11 ranks of Heal, a decent WIS item, and Gauntlets of Immortality, and as, say, a fighter 4/bard 4 with no Heal, no WIS, no Sustenance, no Devotion, and no Healing Lore. (Personally, my preference would be sonic spellpower, but positive probably makes more sense.)

The DCs work and have worked for at least a couple of Updates now, as far as we know. If you are saying that you can't get your Perform skill still isn't high enough to handle monster saving throws in Epic, that's a much larger discussion.

Have they? I honestly haven't tried recently; it's just last I heard they weren't working, and I hadn't heard that they got fixed. If so, ignore that *g*

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Okay, it is not a spell. So ... sure, doesn't mess with spell penetration. Also probably ignores beholder anti-magic.

But it is still a duplicative ability, in a tier 5 slot. I'd rather have something new and unique there.

Yeah, you can Caper beholders. It's great fun. It also has a longer range and duration. While I'd love it to move to T4, it's a legitimate T5 ability, IMHO.

[cru121]

Mass Hold is going to be very very strong at level 12.

Hmm, give it a longish cooldown; AND add cooldown reduction to the lvl 18 spellsinger core

[Blackheartox]

They'll keep increasing as you gain spellpower (or possibly max caster levels). These are quite in line with what other spellcasting trees get; you'll have to convince us that we should change all spellcasting trees and that tier 1 abilities should all scale well into end game and be as viable as epic spells. While we understand there are drawbacks to maximum caster levels (confusion and comprehension being the primary ones), from a design perspective the fact that these don't continue to progress as fast as higher level spells is a feature, not a drawback.

Varq, you do realize that the most common and most powerful used spell in Endgame atm for casters is a lv 1 spell called magic missile?
And its available as sla in wizzard tree..
So you know.. Maybe at least add some sonic nuke spell, like sonic ray make it lv 8, or sonic wall, a lingering aoe, or a sonic dot.. Whatever, since sonic is by far the worst of all spellcasting trees.
Even neg damage has a arsenal of spells (could debate how useful those are, but another time).

[G_Lich]

+1 for listening and actually acting upon feedback, kudos to the whole crew. (I'm still underwhelmed with runearms and lightning storm shot, but that's for another thread)

[Cardoor]

Tree improvements are looking good.

I add support for sonic DOT and sustaining song AOE.

[jakeelala]

If you're going to force a choice between Horn/Mass Hold SLA's, add a sonic DoT lower down the tree.

DO not make it worse than eledars or creeping cold, because then you're just making another underpowered ability for no really good reason other than you're scared it might be too powerful.

But what, pray tell, is a caster bard supposed to do against a Red/Purple name?

Just give them a good DoT, it's been asked for, for YEARS. People wanted an AoE DoT (Wall of Sound or some such), which EVERY OTHER CASTER CLASS has today.

So give bards one, even if it's just single target.

[Hoglum]

Suggestion for Sonic Dot:

Your foes inescapably hear rap music in their mind. Deafness doesn't even help and the torture commences.

Effect: While under the influence of this attack, the subject loses 1 point of intelligence per tick until totally helpless.

Secondary effect: when the victim reaches zero intelligence, they bust a move and begin breakdancing until a remove curse is bestowed upon them.

[SirValentine]

Core Abilities

• 5 AP, class level 3:
• 
  
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6:
  
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
  
  
• 20 AP, class level 12:
  
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
  
  
• 30 AP, class level 18:
  
  • +1 Bard Spell Caster DC
  
  
• 41 AP, class level 20: Maestro:
  
  • +4 Charisma
  • Increased from +2 Charisma, +10 Spellpower

So, anyone run the numbers yet? What would this let a maxed-out Bard get their Enchantment DC up to?

I'm hoping it's in ballpark range of what a maxed-out Enchantment-specced Wizard would get. A point or 2 either way wouldn't bother me much, but significantly lower or higher would strike me as A Bad Thing.

[SirValentine]

• 41 AP, class level 20: Maestro:
  
  • +4 Charisma
  • +25 Universal Spellpower
  • +2 Songs per rest.
  • Heal and Wailing Banshee are added to your Bard Spellbook.
  • Increased from +2 Charisma, +10 Spellpower
    

Can we have similar work on all the other capstones, not just Bard? Thanks.