Spellsinger Changes

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Based on current feedback, we're currently not planning to touch Enthrallment. We might still consider some kind of alterations, but there's enough concern here that integrating it into Fascinate would nerf some current playstyles.

*headsmash*

If you're not going to combine them, will you at least let Enthrall do everything that Fascinate can do? Y'know, make Music of the Sewers/Dead/Makers/Vermin, and Sharp Notes, and whatnot all be "add to Fascinate *AND ENTHRALL*?

And if you can't/won't do that, then for the love of LoB, ignore the people who're too stupid to realize that this is a BUFF and not a NERF, and add Enthrall to Fascinate as it should've been from the very beginning.

[HatsuharuZ]

Someone asked for it? Really?

How many (false?) assumptions is their request based upon?
A) The code for flicker is a direct cut 'n' paste of the Invisibility Guard on Mabar's Cloak of Night.
B) The Invisibility Guard has a secret, undocumented, rumored resetting of the aggro list on triggering. Because surely Turbine wouldn't release something so useless otherwise.
C) This rumored effect still works after Piloto's pet stealth changes.

For the PC member that asked for this: Cast invisibility on yourself. Sneak up to a monster. It sees you. It beats on you. While invisible. Turning invisible while getting beat on doesn't get you beat on any less. It still knows you're there. It's still beating on you. 6 seconds is not enough time to get anywhere near far away enough to lose aggro. Because it knows where you are. Because it's beating on you.

Remember, In DDO: Blur is 20% concealment. Displacement is 50% concealment. Being-Completely-Frickin-Invisible is 0% concealment.


Enhancements shouldn't just add flavor. Enhancements shouldn't just 'be fun'. Enhancements should, ya know, actually enhance gameplay.

Systern makes a good point. Becoming invisible doesn't help at all in melee combat, if I understand have invisibility/stealth works currently. I never noticed any difference when running around in my Mabar cloak, even though I saw the invisibility guard activate multiple times.

[Archetype]

I dont think that the people that dont want them combined understand that there is no nerf.
Once you pick up Enthrall then your Fascinate is Enthrall. Your Enthrall will gain: Music of the Sewers, Music of the Dead, Music of the Makers, and if you have these trained: Haunting Melody, Sharp Note, and if you are in Fatesinger with these trained: Music of the Spider Queen, and Masked Ball. Your Enthralled enemies will be susceptible to the songs Suggestion and Mass Suggestion. The ONLY possible nerf that I can see is Enthrall's icon is changed to Fascinate.

^^^ THIS

Enthrall icon is a waste, and the (very) few who use it will not really have it impact their playstyle much, if you consider it. The *rest* of us, who already have hotbars and hotbars full of icons will gladly accept this change. I currently have Enthrall OFF my hotbars, as I need the room for other, more vital, things.

[Silverleafeon]

What?!?! This is terrible. Who the heck is using it in a way that doesnt work combined? Do people understand what the combination actually means/does? Seriously?



Man if this is seriously the reason enthrall (and hence, that entire enhancement line up the side) gets nerfed Im going to be very disappointed.

Look, you are weighing a second fascinate timer (virtually useless) against having enthrall (a non-instant-breaking cc) work on ALL the additional mob types affected by fascinate. Its a no brainer to combine them.

Varg, if you are seriously doing this (and it pains me to even think it would revert to this) there is one other thing you PLEASE need to look at: add a line to every single "fascinate works on xyz" ability to work on enthrallment too. So like, core gives fascainte oozes... also gives enthrall oozes. Fatesinger gives fascinate vermin... also gives enthrall vermin.

Without that adjustment, you just shot spellsinger in the face with both barrels and left it to bleed out. What the heck =/. This ability is the core defining feature of the pre. Its what the actual bard levels (ie, core) progress. Nerfing it like this is backwards and just results in spellsinger going back to a splash situation. Please fix!!!

I seriously don't see players using enthrall immediately followed by fascinate worried about cooldown timers.

It is the party members who mess with fascinated mobs and would require multiple sings,
just because they don't respect bards, in which case, all the songs in the world would not matter a bit,
and the bard should start throw ottos spells instead.

I do agree it makes little sense to grant all these features then nerf them at the same time.

How about this:

Core level 18: your fascinate gains any features in enthrall.

You get two fascinate/enthral cooldowns then, an incentive to go almost pure as a bard,
and the whole tree makes much more sense.

[Archetype]

Any bard worth the name who needs to use Enthrall PLUS Fascinate (with separate timers) in rapid succession is just doing it wrong:

*ANY FASCINATE/ENTHRALL SHOULD BE STARTED WHILE INVISIBLE*

A bard who understands this will still be invisible when he ends his (hopefully first and only) Fascinate attempt, and any mob who somehow saved vs that effect will NOT be chasing him down directly. There would be plenty of time for the Fascinate timer to cycle through and hit the mob(s) that saved with the same timer. In fact, they can be led slightly away from the main group of mobs who were first Fascinated, as they follow the "scent" of the Invisible Bard. If another Fascinate (or Ottos) is required then they will be a bit apart from the main group and can be targeted and taken out easier, with less of a risk of AoEs breaking them as the melee DPS hacks the Fascinated group apart (or the Bard just Coups them).

So, PRO-TIP: start Fascinating *Invisible* and no need for a separate Enthrall timer anyways.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Any bard worth the name who needs to use Enthrall PLUS Fascinate (with separate timers) in rapid succession is just doing it wrong:

*ANY FASCINATE/ENTHRALL SHOULD BE STARTED WHILE INVISIBLE*

A bard who understands this will still be invisible when he ends his (hopefully first and only) Fascinate attempt, and any mob who somehow saved vs that effect will NOT be chasing him down directly. There would be plenty of time for the Fascinate timer to cycle through and hit the mob(s) that saved with the same timer. In fact, they can be led slightly away from the main group of mobs who were first Fascinated, as they follow the "scent" of the Invisible Bard. If another Fascinate (or Ottos) is required then they will be a bit apart from the main group and can be targeted and taken out easier, with less of a risk of AoEs breaking them as the melee DPS hacks the Fascinated group apart (or the Bard just Coups them).

So, PRO-TIP: start Fascinating *Invisible* and no need for a separate Enthrall timer anyways.

Very good advice with invis. I dont always go invis however. Sometimes I WANT to be seen, as I can grab a decent amount of aggro before they go "Goodnight, Irene". In short, there are many ways to play an adept CC bard, that fit many different styles of play and personalities.

My concern by combining fascinate and enthrall is do we really get ALL the benefits of both songs or do they nerf the math by the limiting damage ticks or a boosting of the percentage chance of a mob breaking the enthrall on damage or disqualify monster types currently affected??

Combining the power of enthrall with the flexibility of fascinate sounds great at first glimpse, but I dont see the dev effort being worth it, especially if there is a chance that they could nerf (or worse - shadow nerf) one iota of fascinate/enthrall's capabilities.

[Seikojin]

Looks like at this point it should be thrown onto Lam.

[Typographer]

In response to direct questions from Vargouille
“If anyone feels they can't continue to play a current-day Bard with the changes proposed, what are you losing that you feel you still need? The bard that you are playing today: What's going away that will break your build? We've already reversed some tentative cuts due to players asking us to keep those abilities.”


Background
In the beginning there was Spellsinger, the support Bard, and Warchanter, the mele Bard. Enter the Swashbuckler. In my opinion, a bad idea and misplaced. You should have spent your efforts refining the Spellsinger and Warchanter PrEs, and to be honest, I bet you feel a bit of “damn, we really didn’t think this through” and you are now dealing with the aftermath of “now that Swashbuckler is the mele bard of choice, what can we do with Warchanter?,” which in turn, is having a trickle-down effect on Spellsinger. Hindsight is 20/20.


The Bard I am playing today
100% support, no offense whatsoever. All buffs and heals. Gear, stats, enhancements and feats, everything, entirely spent to help others. Extremely difficult to solo and get to L28, but worth it. Even on a first life I can be the only healer/res/support on an EH FOT. No clerics, no FS. He’s so good in fact, that I have had people buy me guest passes and raid bypass timers just so they can keep me with them. You’d be hard pressed to find a gamer with an intent and patience to design and play a character to whose sole purpose is to enhance the gameing experiencing of others.


What am I loosing that breaks my build?
1. Arcaine Aid: I can no longer boost the spell-pen of a party member. Not on a single member, and not on an entire group with an Epic Elyd Edge. What on earth do I care about spell pen? I have no spells of any significant worth that stand to benefit this. My mates on the other hand, them it helps. So you haven’t really nerfed me, you nerfed the party.

2. Raucous Refrain: I can no longer boost my party's saves against sleep, paralysis, exhaustion, and energy drain. Not so much of a problem for me as I stay out of harms way. My job is to support and heal. A dead healer is not very effective. So again, you didn’t really nerf me, you nerfed the party.

3. Ironskin Chant: Make it an aura, and I’d need to stand in the middle of the isht-show. Not a good place for a support character to be. A dead support character isn’t very supportive.

4. Inspired Flicker: At the cost of making the landscape difficult to navigate, I stay in shadow-mode constantly to make it easier to distinguish my selected mates name, which in turn, helps me help them. I can easily argue that someone who wants to hold agro doesn’t like it, so you should be able to “toggle it off” like you can Rage for example. For a rogue, healer, heck, anyone who wants a little extra safety, it’s great. So yet again, you didn’t nerf me, you nerfed the party.

5. Epic Elyd Edge: Because of the afore mentioned changes, it’s essentially worthless now. Being the only item with Inspiring Echoes (and I feel it should remain that way), I literally bought the pack for it alone. Were it not for the returning bolts, I’d ask for my money back.


Conclusion
No matter how you slice it, or what combination of all three (proposed) TrE enhancements are selects, a pure Bard T5 & cap-stoned Spellsinger simply can’t be as effective a support character as it once was. No pure Bard build can. From my perspective, you have essentially reduced Spellsingers (indeed, the entire class) to something worth splashing, and little more.


I will reiterate my main point: You didn’t nerf me, you nerfed everyone a support Bard runs with.


(Thank you for leaving Heal where it is)

[Silverleafeon]

Very good advice with invis. I dont always go invis however. Sometimes I WANT to be seen, as I can grab a decent amount of aggro before they go "Goodnight, Irene". In short, there are many ways to play an adept CC bard, that fit many different styles of play and personalities.

My concern by combining fascinate and enthrall is do we really get ALL the benefits of both songs or do they nerf the math by the limiting damage ticks or a boosting of the percentage chance of a mob breaking the enthrall on damage or disqualify monster types currently affected??

Combining the power of enthrall with the flexibility of fascinate sounds great at first glimpse, but I dont see the dev effort being worth it, especially if there is a chance that they could nerf (or worse - shadow nerf) one iota of fascinate/enthrall's capabilities.

Thank you, taking your advice as the last word on the subject.

[Vargouille]

Combining the power of enthrall with the flexibility of fascinate sounds great at first glimpse, but I dont see the dev effort being worth it, especially if there is a chance that they could nerf (or worse - shadow nerf) one iota of fascinate/enthrall's capabilities.

This gets at part of our reasoning. We could spend time changing things some players don't want changed (Enthrall, Flicker) or we could spend that time on things that we're more certain players want (a new Sonic damage over time spell, for instance). Or items for upcoming updates, or quests, or other new enhancement trees, etc.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This gets at part of our reasoning. We could spend time changing things some players don't want changed (Enthrall, Flicker) or we could spend that time on things that we're more certain players want (a new Sonic damage over time spell, for instance). Or items for upcoming updates, or quests, or other new enhancement trees, etc.

Well Varg, I'm just one person. However what I can see is the bard community is obviously jazzed something is going to finally get done. The nervousness and debate is characteristic of the bard community due to the level of customization and years invested in these toons (bard moreso than any other class, for many, in my experience). However this is clearly a blessing to even SEE this anticipation, nervousness and debate in the bard community. I haven't seen this in years. You are definitely on the right track.

My advice would be instead of trading away abilities/enhancements, if you could simply add bonuses where you feel and/or the community feels they are needed. At least if someone doesnt like a new granted spell or ability(sonic DOT) they dont need to use it, its purely optional. The safer bet to me seems to spend dev time doing just that, adding new abilities... and you'd earn a if you could solve the song buff timing issue (this is the single item that holds bards effectiveness back the most.) Is there ANY way a popup window can be created with songs that can be checked off... similarly to how spells can be "perma" quickened .. with one song buffing all, or as selected??

Thanks again for your team's hard work Vargouille!!

[Typographer]

My advice would be instead of trading away abilities/enhancements, if you could simply add bonuses where you feel and/or the community feels they are needed. At least if someone doesnt like a new granted spell or ability(sonic DOT) they dont need to use it, its purely optional.

Agree.

[Loek]

My suggestion for song duration/number of songs granted

It would be nice if they lasted a tad longer than they do now(my IC lasts ~8:30 min @ 28). Perhaps cutting the number of songs available but increasing the overall duration would help alleviate the constant refreshing. Also at the rate of 1 song refresh every 5 min. I don't think this would hurt anything.

I play a multiclass bard (16 bard/2 fighter/2 rogue) and even though I don't get max duration because of my split they still could use a tad duration increase. I already press way too many buttons (Great Cleave, Cleave, Consecration, Focusing chant, Displacement, Strike down, CCW, Primal Scream, Haste Boost, Dmg Boost, Zeal of the Righteous, OID, 5 Weapon swaps, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Excellence, Song of Arcane Might, Spellsong Vigor, Spellsong Trance...probably more)to stay effective in my group (I like buffing and keeping my party well suited for every encounter throughout)

[Tom116]

The changes look good, though I would like to know if the DC's are viable in EE content. Greater Shout should probably hit harder than Shout if you're doubling the cost though. A sonic DoT would be amazing, also what about that Wall of Sound spell that was leaked? Now that bards seem to have a reason to aim at evocation over enchantment, it would be a good time to release it.

[bbqzor]

This gets at part of our reasoning. We could spend time changing things some players don't want changed (Enthrall, Flicker) or we could spend that time on things that we're more certain players want (a new Sonic damage over time spell, for instance). Or items for upcoming updates, or quests, or other new enhancement trees, etc.

Flicker can be useful if you setup for it, but that case only really applies to the bard themselves. Keeping it as an option for the bard makes sense, despite that with having invis as a spell such a situation would rarely come up. I dont have any issues with people keeping abilities they like, especially when other things are added as selections to the ability and it is not required for any ability chains.

Hence the problem with Enthrall. Its required for other stuff. The changes (ie, giving other mob types to enthrall) are critical to making Spellsinger function. Without them, there is little reason to take that enhancement line up. I said as much in my original post in this thread on the matter, when reviewing the whole tree.

That you dont want to spend time combining them because some person somewhere might be unhappy, okay fine. But it does not address the tons of people here which are unhappy the ability is remaining exactly as useless as it is now. And you should, for the very reason cited above, spend a moment to address existing concerns just as you elected not to create new concerns.

Change the Core Enhancements and Fatesinger to add mob types to Enthrall as well as Fascinate. That will make both parties happy. It adds the functionality Enthrall needs to make the "combine" group happy, and actually feel the ability isnt a simple point tax to get anything above it. And it makes the "separate" people happy because they keep two timers, for whatever reason that was important.

If you do not do some cut/paste code there to make that change, you will get one of two things. One, much as now, no one will take enthrall because sustaining song is also weak (too few hp and single target) and capering song can be duplicated with other abilities (its a single target cc spell, bards have tons of cc choices, even if this one becomes instant cast thats not enough to sink 6+ AP into it). Im not alone in those assessments... let me be clear: Sustaining Song is weak and single target, Capering Song is non-unique, Enthrall having limited target types isnt going to sell the line.

The Core Line, which a "spellsinger" should want to take, modifies only Fascinate. Why care about Enthrall? With Mass Hold SLA on the table its not even a "group wont-break cc" issue anymore. That entire line up the side of the tree there is essentially null and void.

I cannot stress enough that one last adjustment is necessary. If youre going to leave them as separate, simply because some people asked and youve run out of time, nothing I can say will change that. I cant undo posts, or alter a code deadline. But... I can try to show you that while you are here, fixing the trees before moving on to another class, dont leave a mistake which will have to wait another 5 years to get looked at. Ever since Enthrall went in, people have asked, complained, commented, and wished that it would benefit from the other Fascinate targets as well. This is the same reason that fascinate constructs and undead got rolled into one song in the last enhancement pass... separated, they were difficult to use and under utilized. Please make sure it does at least that, lest the ability become a lost cause, yet again. Thanks.

[N-0cturn]

My advice would be instead of trading away abilities/enhancements, if you could simply add bonuses where you feel and/or the community feels they are needed. At least if someone doesnt like a new granted spell or ability(sonic DOT) they dont need to use it, its purely optional. The safer bet to me seems to spend dev time doing just that, adding new abilities...

Hm yes, but please do not revive the Inspire Competence Improvements. You can add those to any AOE song if you want to keep them. Inspire Competence is one of the old songs, which has a long song animation. This would be incredible annoying to buff it without Elyd Edge. I have one of those and this is why I know how long it can take to farm it. No one should be required to farm outdated content to make several enchantments work.

Elyd Edge is already useful with just Inspire Heroism to give everyone +4% Dodge.

Personally I prefer to leave those rotting in the ground anyway. The only useful thing was the Spell Pen buff.

The new enchantment line to buff parties is Warchanter. People will have to adapt, but I am sure it will work out. After all the buffs we get are more powerful then before and not less.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Hm yes, but please do not revive the Inspire Competence Improvements. You can add those to any AOE song if you want to keep them.

Yes exactly what my point was.

[nibel]

The safer bet to me seems to spend dev time doing just that, adding new abilities... and you'd earn a if you could solve the song buff timing issue (this is the single item that holds bards effectiveness back the most.) Is there ANY way a popup window can be created with songs that can be checked off... similarly to how spells can be "perma" quickened .. with one song buffing all, or as selected??

You mean, like Metamagic modifiers? Like, "activate this metasong so Inspire Courage also adds Inspire Recklesness, and you expend an extra song when inspiring courage".

I think there are some feats in 3.5 that do exactly that: Allow you to spend many songs at a single action, if you have a feat or so.

[MadCookieQueen]

My one issue...my one really BIG issue...the one thing I have HATED since it came out


Wail of the Banshee.


No.


No.


No.


and one more time:




Necromancy does not belong on a Bard's spell book. I'm sorry but Necromancy is for Necromancers and other high level solid Arcane casters...not generalists.



This is a spot to instead put in the Sonic DOT...make it powerful enough to be viable and worth it.


Suggestion based on 3.5 spell list:

Original: Sympathetic Vibration: Deals 2d10 damage/round to freestanding structure.

DDO Change: Sympathetic Vibration: Deals 2d10 + 10(basically +1 per 2 levels of Bard) damage every 2 seconds for a duration of 16 seconds to target NPC. Stacks up to 3 times, increases damage per stack (like the other DOTs and same metamagics and spell power bonuses applies)


As a Maestro You can heal or you can harm the choice is up to you.

[Bladedge]

Havent read any other post here other them the1st post so far the only think that stands out to me that should be change among all the changes is Wail of the Banshee

Wail of the Banshee has to go. Its out of place for the bard especially since its a Necromancy spell.

A new sonic spell or a custom bard version of Wail of the Banshee lets call it Wailing Banshee that is not from the Necromancy spell school or maybe a sonic dot.