Spellsinger Changes

[Uidolon]

Even with this HUGE a boost im probably not picking up a caster bard. If these changes make some type of hybrid bard build to powerful seems the only drawback doubt many has a interest in making a casting bard.

Its main issue still remains to most part a small spell list making it feel like a 1trick pony sure its a nice tricky but still not a fun playstyle. This does seem to make it viable if not fun

[Rull]

I, too, am worried that the devs will balance out the new Bard numbers. I've been able to hit a comfortable 65-69 without any past lives on a melee hybrid only using 1 twist and 1 feat for enchant DC on the new spellsinger. I'm sure that makes quite a few wizards/sorcs squirm when they're struggling to hit 60.

The counter argument though, is the lack of damage spells spellsingers will have. They can get their DCs way the hell up there but on the DPS caster end they basically just get Reverberate if they're going for control. You can't get your Evocation DC up to the same level unless you go full caster, and the only thing waiting for you at the end of that tunnel is Greater Shout. Albeit Greater Shout is a great spell, you need to get the DC up to 73+ because endgame fort saves are absolutely ridiculous- it also costs a whole lot of SP so you'll find yourself running out because you have ~1000 less than most other classes.

So in essence, the extra large amount of DCs that spellsinger get are only really capitalized on and possible if you go full spellsinger- and in that, you have a massive lack of DPS options.

I don't agree with everything that Leslie has been saying- and I do hope she takes some more time to pick up some more classes with EE so she obtains a better understand of the current state of the game, but I think the general point she's trying to make is that the reason Bard CC is so grossly disproportionate is because their DPS options are disproportionate in the opposite direction- at least in regards to spells.

Control and melee seems to be the sweet spot at the moment because that's where all your DPS options lie- and getting the DC stat to damage allows things to get a bit out of control. Pumping CHA as high as possible gets both your DC way up there as well as your damage- so any combination of Swash and Spellsinger at the moment is the strongest combination.

Spellsinger/Swashbuckler combination is a bit too strong, probably, but from a purely caster perspective, I don't believe that giving bards a huge advantage on spell DCs is horribly unfair considering their DPS is limited to two SLAs and one spell- all sonic spells. A pure caster bard would have absolutely zero DPS options against monsters that resist sonic- and the casting DPS isn't great to begin with.

Their melee is a bit ridiculous though- CDG is the most openly overpowered ability in the game and I love it. Can't wait to see how they brutally nerf it.

Personally I'm liking the enchantment stuff. I just get a little nervous when I see "all DC" or "Evocation".

I think i'm fine with bards being awesome mass hold guys. Like I said before, I would prefer a multiclass wiz/bard to be the absolute best at this (but suck at most other things).
But when you add draconic on top, I wouldn't want to see bard as strictly better than sorc, dealing almost the same amount of damage with the damage spells from destiny, while also having the power of good CC.

The lack of elemental spellpower may keep this in check, I don't know. I am not experienced enough in damage casting to tell.

(but if these numbers are balanced, I welcome the addition of this archtype. Up until now bards being added to the arcane sphere were kind of a bad joke)

[Maelodic]

Personally I'm liking the enchantment stuff. I just get a little nervous when I see "all DC" or "Evocation".

I think i'm fine with bards being awesome mass hold guys. Like I said before, I would prefer a multiclass wiz/bard to be the absolute best at this (but suck at most other things).
But when you add draconic on top, I wouldn't want to see bard as strictly better than sorc, dealing almost the same amount of damage with the damage spells from destiny, while also having the power of good CC.

The lack of elemental spellpower may keep this in check, I don't know. I am not experienced enough in damage casting to tell.

(but if these numbers are balanced, I welcome the addition of this archtype. Up until now bards being added to the arcane sphere were kind of a bad joke)

I'm liking everything too- I'm not complaining, I think it's pretty great. I'm playing devil's advocate as to quell some infighting =P

Sorcs get 85 Spell Power and 8% critical for their element in the tree- though a Spellsinger will get 41 Universal minimum. The critical helps quite a bit and the universal is aight. The big kicker as said previously is bards have very little spell options for DPS other than EDs.

[MadCookieQueen]

DBards need to be able to dominate at something otherwise they will be forever an underpowered unwanted class.

Bards have always dominated the CC game..unfortunately most people dont' have a clue on how to communicate. It's simple...take a tip from the Blitzers. "I'm Fascinating the crowd, you break it, you die." amazing how that one little line saves a Bard player some grief. But I digress that takes player skill to understand how their dominate ability actually is FULLY USABLE.

No. Rogue and monk have been the kings of splash for years. Rogue will always hold that spot, till the day they shut the servers down.

Honestly...this made me laugh. I thank you for the chuckle.

Even better, it will be easier for someone who hasnt the years and years of bard player experience to shine. That's truly my #1 reason why I like what the devs have done.

So really a Bard is only interesting as long as it's an easy to play easy god mode button. Sad that people think this way. Personally I blame WoW.

Bards absolutely should be the commanders on the battlefield, and in real time groups. In fact if bards are NOT in charge, they are not optimal, regardless what their stats and gear sit at. They do not need to be the party lead, but they MUST communicate with the party lead and ensure their role is well defined, and in order for party members to be properly buffed and the field to be controlled, they must pay attention to the bard. This is PnP territory here, and with DDO, more people have the chance to feel like they really are playing the role of a bard, D&D style.

so I'm the commander on the battlefield but I don't nee dot be the party leader...wait...huh? I think you lost me. Which is it...you want them in command or not?

If the party isn't' paying attention to the Bard...the player isn't talking to the party. That's fact.

When I get working Bardic Knowledge and the chance to craft my own songs or carry lute, i'll feel like this is D&D playing. It isn't. We enjoy a MMO based on D&D rules. Rules and ideas I'd like to keep as much in tact as possible. I'm a genre purist by nature but I haven't hit delusional....yet.

Bards control the battlefield, they boost the abilities of their party, and they debuff the baddies. They cannot do all this at once, and they cannot build to max it all out. But, it's high time that bards can get a foothold, and if the role is crowd control, by any means, a bard should be able to perform this art better than anyone else, within their sphere of CHA/perform jurisdiction and trained choices (enhancements/destinies/skills etc). They cannot heal better than Clerics or Favored Souls. They can't build for that. They are not winning the direct damage caster war, wizards and sorcs have that. They do not have spell versatility, wizards have that.

Why do you put down Bards so much? I'm actually curious, because you spend so much of the time saying that a Bard:

• Has no real CC unless they can outpace a Wizard.
• They can't heal better than a FVS.
• They are useless unless they are god mode easy button.
• Oh and without access to every single spell in the game they have no real spell abilities

Every one of these points I can flat out tell you...you're wrong. Plain and simple.

Even at crowd control, wizards will reign supreme by sheer number of spells in their spell book. They just wont be the only enchanters in the end game any longer.

Serisouly? Number of Spells in their spellbook?

Sure you might have EVERY SINGLE SPELL in the world but we all know that only certain ones are ever used. So yeah...give me lots of spells and then give me a DC that won't even come close to having the spell work.

That's like having all the time and books in the world to read but then have your glasses break and no one around to fix them.

Bards get to perform, and at that, they should be the best. Bards are STILL jack of all trades, but the "jacks" are now of a much higher quality. Most importantly THE BARD'S TALE, their value to a party, actually is now BELIEVABLE in more hands than just the best bards in the game.

They do Perform and they perform well. You're missing the rest of being a "Jack of All Trades" The whole thing is: "Jack of All Trades, Master of NONE" The catch is that Bards do Master one thing...the music. That means they have music, they have a good understanding of many other things but they SHOULD NEVER EVER outpace a specialist in the field.

This is like having a general family doctor excel at advanced special nuerosurgery, cardiovasculary surgery and rare diseases; instead of the people that's dedicated their whole lives to that one thing.

The value of the Bard to a party is pretty top notch..assuming that horrible little thing called player skill and communication.

As someone that has helped so many people build their bards over the years, I feel without a shadow of a doubt, that the next year will bring back many old school bards. And that's exactly the kind of excitement DDO needed. Lets not rain on the bard's parade. Other classes will get their turn.

No the next year will bring back many Bard splashes for the enhancements to SWF from Swashbuckler...it'll bring out some mean CDG builds...they will have a flavor of the month build that will take off because of some exploit.

But if you think it's going to be a surge of new old school bards..... o.0

I'm not raining on Bard's parade...I'm saying that they needed some love but this isn't love this is too over the top. There seems to be only 2 modes around here...genernal suck and OMG. We needed somewhere in the middle...not one side of the pendulum.

Actually...we flew off the pendulum.

[MadCookieQueen]

I have no problem with Bard (already) having the most powerful (song-based) CC.

But there's no reason for a secondary caster class, which has lots of other abilities, to have SPELL-BASED CC so far ahead of a primary caster that focuses on Enchantment. That's not a foot in the door, that's the Bard slamming the door in everyone else's face.

What this will really do is make every other class unable to effectively use Will-save-based spells at all, once the devs start balancing mobs around Bard's new super-inflated spell DCs.

I don't think he could be more right than he tried.


He's also completely right about the horror of what will happen when devs balance mobs in new quests or tweaked quests according to Bards.

Don't believe him...look at Three Barrel Cove. The saves for that match what people have at end game...assuming the broken splashes of cheese but they are level 25 quests. Honestly...survival is really hard (sometimes impossible) if you don't have saves in the 70's....for a level 25 quest.

Imagine what's going to happen when the next pack balances Will DCs against a Bard's high end...

[Wipey]

I think thats a gross exaggeration.

I would be happy to see your "numbers"/comparisons.

Bards do not have the best combat style in the game. They've got an excellent one. But SWF is not for every class. Out of TWF, THF, and SWF I believe SWF is the least versatile and will be the least used (with the possible exception of bards).

I don't have any "evidence" other than extensively playing on Lamannia last week and watching few videos.
I could say fresh Swashbuckler toon ( many splits ) on Lama blows anything twf I played out of the water.

Best instakill? No. Coup isnt one and done. It needs to be set up with a fascinate, . That takes a bit of time. And then there's a cooldown.

It doesn't work with Fascinate.
How many palemasters, clerics or assassins with 70 instakill do you know ? Ten, twenty on the server ?
Boom 80 perform, that is 10 DC difference. No sp needed, low cooldown. Old Quivering Palm looks like a joke, it at least needed really top notch gear, full stat investment and perfect race / past lives.

Best melee CC? Good! They are BARDS. Bards control things.

Cetus like split has what, 75 Stun blow, for other classes 60 - 63 is possible max, top monks have 75 SF ? Now someone did calcs for Frozen Fury here in the 90 - 100. That is 20 -30 ( ! ) DC difference.

Magnitude better than other classes options? No. They are bard exclusives. They can stand toe to toe with an enemy much better than before.

5 or 10 better DCs in all schools. Someone did breakdowns for all schools and 80 Enchant for bards, where do you think Sorc or Wizard is now ? 60 is max for a sorcerer probably, Wizard might be at 63 - 65. Boom 70 Mass hold SLA, all you need is high Charisma.
Yes, it's not point or three difference, I would call that magnitude.

It's essentially giving Bards godlike DCs, nothing else.
Looks like it's gonna go live tomorrow so be it.

[Dagolar]

Major flaws in the recent arguements:

A: Spellsinger don't have the DCs to make Lloth dance.

Spellsinger: +7 possible Enchantment DC (4 core, +1 Marigold, +2 Tier 5) , +2 additional stat at Core2 over base, for a total of +8 DCs.
Archmage [Outdated, and likely to see an update in the future]: +2 Enchantment DCs, +3 Heighten DCs due to higher spell level cap.


Total benefit Spellsinger has over Archmage: +3 enchantment DCs.


I must be seriously missing something if there's a 5 to 10 DC advantage being called out- though I suppose without AM, it would be 5. [Note that PM can actually get higher DCs than AM.]

I'm not necessarily saying anything for or against the balance involved here, just saying that the numbers people've been throwing around seem pretty notably inflated.

B: Bards can cast spells also!

Bards are NOT secondary casters WHEN it comes to Enchantment spell abilities.
Anyone who believes that has never played a bard in pen and paper.
There's also the fact that, due to how DCs work in pen and paper, 'secondary caster' technically may not apply to bards at all.

Either way, enchantment-specced bards have always been able to compare to enchantment-specced wizards, generally at fairly equal basis. As noted, wizards generally benefit more from spell versatility [and wizard-unique things like Mnemonic Enhancer spells, and 'primary caster' things such as crafting and contingencies and whatnot].
It's also worth noting that if you look at the paths involved, a bard has to give up a lot more to specialize that deeply than wizards do [ie, even if their end values in enchantment are equatable, wizards can maintain other values better along the way].

Of course, the 'splat books don't count' argument could be tossed out, but that's nonsensical, since ignoring official books and relegating the entirety of 3rd edition to the core books not only goes against the intent of 3rd edition's styling, but ignores how DDO relies on such books to begin with.

Most importantly, it's about impression of a class, and bards as master enchanters is a core impression of the class in PnP.
[as is healers for clerics, elementalists for druids, tanks for fighters- it's not that they HAVE to be these things, but they are expected to be able to pursue such roles.]

C: Bards are versatile. And something about dragons.

What the devil does being able to fascinate have to do with other long-standing bardic specializations?
If fascinate starts being able to summon dragons on cast, and charming everything with a whisper, that's a consideration for fascinate itself.
It has no play on how the rest of bardic abilities are set up.
That's like saying that fighters can use tower shields*, and thus, shouldn't be allowed to use anything BUT tower shields in their off-hand.

Sure, that's ONE of their paths they can specialize in, but it's not the only one that they've been known to use.


*I want a tower shield that summons dragons on it being hit now. Just saying.

D: Bards are not [class potency] vampires- even if they do want you to become their thralls.

Arguing about how outdated classes or class paths are outdated is at best a straw man fallacy, and at worst, a complete tangent.

Saying bards are overpowering in melee because of SWF is ignoring that SWF will assuredly become more accessible to other paths later on [eg, Vanguard], and that THF has already been commented on as being worked on for rebalancing.

Also, every single argument for SWF has thus ignored that THF generally have 2 to 3 times the base damage of SWF weapons [from 1d4 to 1d10, versus 1d12/2d6 to 1d20]. An extra 25% stat allocation, double vorpal, and 30% attack speed is phenomenal, even before the swashbuckler "khopesh-everything because why-khopesh-ever", and yes, assuredly puts SWF ahead of the current THF, even if glancing blows WERE working better. But that's not to say it's near as far ahead as people make it out to be [unless the THF weapon you're using is the Greatclub of the Scrag. Then they're totally 100% accurate].
Once we've actually given it a bit of time and THEN see no rebalances to THF, then we can OMG***BBQ the situation.
I'm pretty sure our concerns on the topic have been well noted by this stage.

Saying that bards are overpowered because other trees have flaws in them is phenomenally illogical*, and I'm really not going to try and explain that any better, because doi.

*Unless you don't expect them ever to be looked at. But again, that's still a different topic.

E: Why don't you ever love bards for their minds!

MadCookie, you shouldn't reply to Leslie anymore. You really seem to have difficulty matching your line of thought to hers.
For example, the Commander != Leader topic.
I'll metaphor it for you: A king is not a general, a general is not a king, except when they are.
A bard can be a general without being a king; they don't have to guide the entire shape of the war, but they are favorably built to manage high-level tactics.

In PnP, bards are often the tactical commanders of the party. The fighter, the sorcerer, the cleric, the paladin; someone else may lead the party.
But the bard often will take command of certain situations [assuming being built/RPed to do such, naturally] due to their versatility of control, buff, debuff, knowledge, and manipulation abilities.
Wizards will also often take this role, due to their intelligence, knowledge skills, and spell versatility.
Naturally, the class doesn't matter as much as the prestige paths and feat selections; but certainly, there is a core favoritism there.

In other words, giving bards versatility outside of fascinate, and various ways to shape a battlefield, is very in line with P&P; while fascinate is nevertheless a core contributor to that feeling.

Actually, Leslie described it way better than I just did.
So this section of my post probably won't help.

But it was the only part of your post that I didn't interpret as a full misinterpretation of what Leslie said, so I figured I'd try.

But to easily summarize everything that your post conveyed- you love the hell out of bardic music as it is implemented in DDO, and you feel it should be the entire basis of the class.
We, however, feel bards should have the versatility of options they have in pen and paper, where they can excel in combat, spellcasting, skill use, music, or anything else they please- and yes, they DO specialize in pen and paper [though, in the less ridiculously amped up numbers of PnP, they can also choose to generalize. That isn't really as easy an option in DDO].

I'm not sure why you can't just enjoy your music-only bard even with the changes to the prestiges.

If you want to sing, we're okay with that.
We won't break your lute for it.
Unless your singing sucks.
Sorry.

Pro-Tip: If you give me booze, I'll likely think your music is better.

Side note: Bards in PnP don't even necessarily have bardic music. From at least second edition onward, bards have been able to perform in any category, including paths such as dancing, sword dancing, juggling, halfling throwing, and more.

Okay, halfling throwing MIGHT be a bit more exotic an inclusion than the rest.

F: Try try try to understand- I'm a magic man.
@uidolon I know a lot of people interested in caster bards. More importantly to me, I've been dying to unmothball my caster bards.
Back when it was a choice between Virtuoso and Spellsinger, I would always take Spellsinger. It fits my playstyle~


G: Patience, Thri-Kreen.

"Bards aren't broken. A lot of other trees are- this is what we should have gotten with the enhancement pass. "

Really does describe the situation well; The expectation there is severely flawed, though. All things come in time.
The issue here isn't that enhancements weren't "fixed" all at once, but that people aren't willing to be patient for them all to be improved.

[Starla70]

Bards were not broken, they are now. Thanks for nothing. The more the changes are heading towards every class being self sufficient, it seems the whole point of MMO is lost. Why have a multi-player game if everyone is able to do everything? What the changes did for me personally, I will not be playing a bard, any reason I had for it are gone. Not to mention, one of the strongest support toons we had in our guild has been so badly hurt in the changes, I doubt it will remain a bard. It was a cool toon. that everyone liked to run with.

[Loek]

Bards were not broken, they are now. Thanks for nothing. The more the changes are heading towards every class being self sufficient, it seems the whole point of MMO is lost. Why have a multi-player game if everyone is able to do everything? What the changes did for me personally, I will not be playing a bard, any reason I had for it are gone. Not to mention, one of the strongest support toons we had in our guild has been so badly hurt in the changes, I doubt it will remain a bard. It was a cool toon. that everyone liked to run with.

Not sure how these changes were so game breaking for you...Must have been some support Spellsinger spec'd bard. After these changes, that same support bard should have become even better. I don't see how it made it worse.

Warchanter is at least playable now. Did you ever run into a Warchanter post enhancement change EVER??? I tried it on mine and was like wow this is the worst tree (besides Kotc). I was useless and 1 tier 5 Spellsinger enhancement basically out did the entire WC tree (Spellsong Vigor). I ended up respec'ing to a melee Spellsinger why? Because it was the only useful tree at the time. All of this was prior to Swashbuckler coming out. I haven't gone swash yet because I need to become Single Weapon fighting oriented to take any use from that tree.

Overall, the changes were in a better direction. Learn to respec and adapt. Thier bard should have become more useful after these changes.

[Starla70]

Many of the songs that could be used on everyone, now is the bard, or the party, never both. That doesn't even make logical sense, or magical. If the bard is one who is not out front, the iron chant it useless now as an aura, if the bard is not with the fighters, it is useless. There is no way to level the playing field for one toon by breaking another class. There are players that like to play single classes. Since assassin is now having issues with that new change if you hit one enemy everyone see you, a bard can now start to out assassin the assassin, why?

How are you expecting new players to get to know the game or learn how to play when you are constantly change the whole system? I understand Turbine sees this as a business, but having spent meany years in business, I know a couple of truths. The customer has other choices, if you do not please them, they will leave and go to the other places. Your repeat and long term customers keep you in business. Older players do not have time or very rarely the interest to help others. It is very upsetting to a player who has worked their toon to where they like it, and have it totally screwed to keep the power gamers happy. In this case, Bards could be awesome back up healers, now after these changes, not so much. They could strengthen a party, now they can, but then they are on their own, the bard can not help both themselves and the party. (Once again hurting the reason to party up).

We have players who had toons that worked well, who are not dropping bard, it no longer serves the purpose they needed. If they did not want to play a front line toon, now they are pretty much forced to. Which no one should be forced into any one direction. Once again, I would think that those who played bards, could have been contacted with the survey of what they use and what they wanted to see changed. I know, they did on the forums. Like it or not, there are players that want to play the game and not spend so much time on the forums.

Several bards I have access to are trying to figure out the changes and what is good. So far, there is one that sees "the age of the super bard has begun" , 3 others are TR'ing out of bard totally, one is so frustrated, he logged off for the night, very upset, and the last one is looking it over, and trying to figure out how to save his toon he has used for the last 2 years. None of that makes me say my next toon has to be a bard. The whole bard thing confused me from the start of my time here on DDO. In D&D the bard was a mix of fighter, rogue and then bard, they could be pretty powerful. I have looked them over before and tried one once, it only got to 5th level before I was just done. Now with these changes, I seriously doubt I would ever play one. Many of the stronger spells are gone, yes, replaced, but change it not always good.

You took away from bards enchantment and strengthed the sonic powers. The loss of spell songs is very upsetting. I also have to ask, if it isn't broken why fix it? Couldn't there be a option of another tree with the points that many liked? It seems with every change, there is much loss. The improvements are not always better, nor do they actually improve anything. So many gamers I know who have left this game because they really feel that unless you are a power gamer, you have no voice here. There are times, I also have to agree. This is not WOW, if I wanted to play that I would. I came here to play D&D. The flavor of D&D is fading fast and it gets worse with each change.

[azrael4h]

In this case, Bards could be awesome back up healers, now after these changes, not so much. They could strengthen a party, now they can, but then they are on their own, the bard can not help both themselves and the party. (Once again hurting the reason to party up).

Wrong. Bards can still be built as back up, and in some cases main, healer. Most buffs remain the same, the ones that are different are now auras, which means *gasp* horrors of horrors you can't hang back and only be near the party when it's time to loot the chests and pike the rest of the time.

We have players who had toons that worked well, who are not dropping bard, it no longer serves the purpose they needed. If they did not want to play a front line toon, now they are pretty much forced to. Which no one should be forced into any one direction. Once again, I would think that those who played bards, could have been contacted with the survey of what they use and what they wanted to see changed. I know, they did on the forums. Like it or not, there are players that want to play the game and not spend so much time on the forums.

Most of the changes to Spellsinger and Warchanter were the very things that had been asked for in the ENTIRE TIME I'VE BEEN PLAYING DDO (more than 4 years now). In this rare and amazing case, Turbine actually listened to the players (specifically Bard players) complaints and comments, and implemented them. If someone wants their feedback known, they need to come here and make it known. That's what the forums are here for, feedback and discussion. That's why Turbine, and most every other company, has forums. Most of the time, it's for yes-men feedback, and not legitimate feedback, but in this case they actually took what feedback they got and ran with it. Next time, participate.

You took away from bards enchantment and strengthed the sonic powers. The loss of spell songs is very upsetting. I also have to ask, if it isn't broken why fix it? Couldn't there be a option of another tree with the points that many liked? It seems with every change, there is much loss. The improvements are not always better, nor do they actually improve anything. So many gamers I know who have left this game because they really feel that unless you are a power gamer, you have no voice here. There are times, I also have to agree. This is not WOW, if I wanted to play that I would. I came here to play D&D. The flavor of D&D is fading fast and it gets worse with each change.

Patently false. Not only did Bards not lose anything in enchantment, they gained a few DCs. And the best Enchantment spell currently in-game. They also gained sonic dps if the player wants it. Note the italicized section. You have to make that choice.

I'm debating a Caster Spellsinger build right now, after I TR someone else. I have a Swashbuckler converted from a TWF Warchanter (who spent more in Spellsinger because WC sucked so horribly). I also had a TWF Bard way back before MotU (currently a Druid). Guess what? My Spellsinger build will be able to support and heal my party members just fine, as well as do CC or spell dps. My Swashbuckler now buffs and heals the party just fine (I do miss being able to displace others). My old Bard, which was a Virt, was able to buff and heal others just fine, and still could lead kill counts in elite at-level quests. The main difference now is my Swashbuckler has suddenly gotten ap tight, as there's a lot I want to invest in, and I have to choose what to pick.

[raggedtopper]

Would someone here, anyone actually explain how the hold SLA dc is determined?

We have several PC members and Devs on this thread so it should not be that hard to get a straight answer, and I am hoping someone here will clear his up.

[gwonbush]

From what I could tell from Lam, it worked like a level 6 Enchantment spell with Cha as the main stat. It would have been extremely noticeable had the Enchantment modifiers not effected it.

[raggedtopper]

Thanks for that mate, but seriously? we are all guessing because the actual number is not anywhere, and the method to arrive at that number is nowhere to be found as well.

I mean, come on! how hard is it to clear this up turbine? or get a straight answer? and why would you put out this new TIER 5 SLA and not have the DC number listed in the shortcut bar or tooltip?

[raggedtopper]

How silly is it that you can't even get a answer about the Hold SLA DC on the "official Turbine Discussions" threads?

[Starla70]

To assume everyone that plays a support toon does nothing but pike, is one thing that seems to enrage many on the forums. In this case, with this particular bard, it is not a piker at all. In this case and the circle I tend to run with it is most likely the fighter types who run out and get killed again and again that are the issue. I don't know if they are doing something wrong, but they leave the party go off and get killed. A support toon tries to stop that.

[elvesunited]

So checking out the spellsinger changes:

The Good
Increasing the DC in the cores is of course very welcome. Bard needs all the DC help he can get.

Wand and Scroll taken from 2 enhancements to 1 in line with similar enhancments in other enhancement trees.

SLAs are not pre-reqs for one another.

The Bad

Is Horn of Thunder (1d4+1) sonic per level and (1d4+1) electric per level. Or is it 1d4 + (1 per level) sonic and 1d4+ (1 per level) electric? If it's the latter than that's really funny. ( in a Tier 3 SLA dominates at Tier 5 one sort of way ) Even if its not the likelyhood that the bard will have high sonic spellpower and low electric spellpower may mean Shout would be the better AP purchase.

So many questions on Mass Hold given the lack of information provided for it. I'm guessing it counts as a level 9 spell for DC purposes. It has the spell cost of the 9th level spell. Also noting that its spell cost doesn't go down with more AP invested in it. Why not?

Opinion
It's an improvement. The DCs will help considerably. And the lack of pre-req requirements allows for flexibility.

[HastyPudding]

As for the SLA's:

Sonic Blast
Not worth 3 points, in my opinion; even with maximize, heighten, and quicken, it just doesn't deal enough damage to matter. There's not a whole lot of useful level 1 bard spells, and the sla costs 4 sp, the same as the normal spell. It's a box breaker, nothing else, as the daze doesn't last nearly long enough. This will be useful until you get shout, after that it's a waste of AP in a tree filled with many useful things.

Shout
I was absolutely astounded at the damage this spell does, now. I was doing Feast or Famine in Gianthold and I one-hit a hobgoblin with a crit from it. I've been using it constantly, now, and even considered taking empower metamagic. The greater shout spell stuns the mobs, then use your shout sla to slaughter them for extra damage.

Suggestion
Not worth 3 AP in any way, shape, or form. Unless you're a solo charmer, this is a waste of AP.

Resonance
Great for red/purple named bosses since they can't be CC'd in any way, although the damage is a tad lacking. The 10 SP cost is wonderful, though, which balances out the damage. Wizards and Sorcerers have to pay a lot more to use their DoTs.

Mass Hold Monster
From what I've seen first-hand, this certainly isn't a level 6 spell (max bard spell level is 6). The SLA can use heighten, which isn't possible with level 6 bard spells. Thus, I'd assume this is a standard level 9 spell for DC purposes. Bread and butter for an enchantment spellsinger. Great addition to the plethora of crowd control and utility spellsinger possesses.

Horn of Thunder
The damage is not much higher than what the shout sla can have with maximize. The electrical part baffles me as it doesn't fit in any way with the spellsinger's kit other than the spell's name. I use this frequently in heroics, but I think I'll be switching it out for mass hold once I hit epics. A Great Thunderclap or Cacophonic Burst would have been better. I've never been fond of cone-shaped spells.

[dunklezhan]

Well, I logged in today and spent my refunded spellsinger AP since the changes.

For the first time since first taking the virtuso PrE on this same bard back in 2010, I have not purchased enthrall. The ability to fascinate only the same range of mobs I could already fascinate before Bard L3 but give that limited range of mobs a chance to not automatically break on damage, and also not get the other passive buffs Fascinate can get elsewhere in the tree just isn't worth it and so I have spent my AP elsewhere.

Seriously. I simply do not understand why the enthrall 'chance not to break' ability wasn't just added as a high level passive to the core abilities like the ooze/undead/construct passives. Its only a chance not to break, and at higher levels mob saves are ridiculous so they frequently DO break out. That I can't then use suggestion song on them, or grant my allies the +3 to damage they would have got from my other enhancements had I used fascinate is just insult to injury.

I went back and read the thread to try to find out what the objections were to them being merged and I saw Vargouille sort of confirm that the way they were going to merge them would have broken certain playstyles but didn't give details. I assume that means the worst fears were going to be confirmed - that by merging them enthrall would end up nerfed because of under the hood maths. The reason I assume that is that the idea that its helpful to have them separately for emergencies just doesn't seem like a good enough explanation of a 'playstyle'. Its nice that the separate cooldown provides this but surely its not a build/play dependency? Its got to be worth the trade off to reduce hotbar clutter and get everything on the one ability, especially when logically one would assume Enthrall WOULD add to fascinate and the fascinate passives WOULD add to Enthrall.

When everything was a separate song, I simply did not have fascinate on my hotbar at all, because Enthrall was just a better version of fascinate. I needed room for music of makers, music of undead as well. Basically, because THEY were separate songs as 'fascinate plus', it was ok for Enthrall to also be separate too. But it made fascinate itself only useful as a precursor to suggestion song, which I didn't have enough use for - if they were enthralled you didn't need the extra firepower of a charmed mob on your side anyway and if you really really did, you just charmed one with a spell. So enthrall went on in place of fascinate. Fascinate and suggestion song went to a side hot bar just in case... and rarely if ever needed to wanted to be used at all. Certainly not often enough to miss them.

But now music of makers, undead and the new ooze song are simple passives to fascinate? Its highly desirable to have fascinate. Sure, I have room for enthrall, but I don't have to take any time to observe the pack of mobs and decide whether there's enough mobs there that might be affected by it to try. One of the fundamental problems with any of the CC classes is people giving you time to get your CC off, and then respecting it when it does. Time lost assessing the situtation before using a bard song which has a long 'cast' time (which IS a core part of the playstyle, you need to be able to set it running so you can gather up mobs to position them), is essentially reducing the chances you'll get your CC off meaningfully at all. So in the past, on my virtuoso and previous spellsinger tree, the songs being separate was already a bad thing. People had called for makers/undead/fascinate/enthrall to all be rolled together for years for this reason. And now we've rolled all bar Enthrall up.

So we're left with:
1. Fascinate that works on **** near everything but breaks on hit, with still other class abilities and enhancements which can improve it further (e.g. suggestion song and +3 damage output for allies when you perform fascinate).
2. Enthrall only works range of mobs that fascinate outgrew back at L3 via the core abilities enhancements, gets none of the additional passive buffs you can invest AP in for fascinate, and only has a chance not to break on hit. Its not even that much of a chance.


I don't understand at all what playstyle could justify the above design choices, I really don't. If enthrall had been changed to simply 'damage doesn't free them' with the usual save against the fascinate per x period then sure, very powerful indeed, I could see why that might have been thought to need to be limited to only certain types of mob. But as it is? It's quite powerful, but that power in no way compares to the power fascinate has now with all those passives rolled up into it, nor the quality of life improvement from only having to keep the one song on your hotbar for your core CC needs.

I know that it is highly unlikely that there will be another spellsinger review any time soon but I just wanted to chuck my 2 penneth back in. As far as I'm concerned the community voices in favour of keeping them separate and the devs who listened chose... poorly. I'm not raging about it and I'm certainly not asking to have fascinate broken back up in to fascinate/makers/undead songs, but I'm a bit frustrated that I just cannot balance what we kept vs what we lost by the choice.

[Nimdeadlee]

...

+1.

I suspect that if a poll were held the VAST majority of Bard players would have preferred Enthrall and Fascinate to be combined.