TWF locks out Single weapon fighting and visa versa

[01000010]

I just put it together on paper. You have to be human, can't be iconic due to class/feat ordering, and have to pick two of the three:
1. Overwhelming Critical (I suppose you don't have to be human if you give this one up)
2. Natural Fighting #3
3. 7th level druid spells (Jaws of Winter, Regen)

Yup, there are some other things you can and cant do as well, but all require decent sacrifice. Definitely a waste of dev time to change this, oh well, wont be the first time or last.

[LordArkan]

Seems like more of an intent thing. TWF isn't "supposed" to work in animal form, yet keeps popping back up despite at least one fix attempt I can think of. Easier to just make it so rangers with SWF don't get TWF or whatever it is they have planned, and then druids have to choose if they want SWF or another style like everyone else.

[01000010]

Seems like more of an intent thing. TWF isn't "supposed" to work in animal form, yet keeps popping back up despite at least one fix attempt I can think of. Easier to just make it so rangers with SWF don't get TWF or whatever it is they have planned, and then druids have to choose if they want SWF or another style like everyone else.

Right, but it takes dev time... And it accomplishes very little and would affect very few builds.

If turbine was known for getting content and bug fixes out on time I would not be posting on this thread, but they are known for the opposite unfortunately, so adding more to their todo list that is not worth bothering with is just not justified or intelligent.

[mna]

I agree that the rangers be able to choose their fighting style be it SWF, TWF or Ranged not be forced to choose TWF & Ranged regardless of build.

Actually, I'm afraid going back to having to choose between a melee style and a ranged style would break a bit too many characters...

What would be nice, useful and sensible, would be to keep autogranted ranged feats and allow a choice for the melee style between all three - TWF, SWF, THF. Or maybe even have separate style-feat choices for melee and ranged separately, melee SWF/TWF/THF and ranged bow, crossbow or thrown? (To be viable that'd require a new stat-to-damage feat for crossbows, but, well... oh and make Arcane Archer work for crossbows too, but that should be fairly simple? Of course could be it'd make rangers too "overpowered" and thus not a good idea, requires a game balance evaluation.)


Yes, that'd be some amount of work. Yes, even further diverging from pen and paper. Just a suggestion...

[01000010]

If they thought breaking a lot of characters is a bad thing they wouldn't be considering screwing with pally splash saves, lol.

[AlmGhandi]

After further investigation, this is indeed a deliberate change that did not get called out correctly in the Release Notes. We'll correct this in the notes, but just to put it here: Two Weapon Fighting and Single Weapon Fighting are mutually exclusive, as is Single Weapon Fighting and Two Handed Fighting.

But THF and TWF are not exclusive?

[Caprice]

If they thought breaking a lot of characters is a bad thing they wouldn't be considering screwing with pally splash saves, lol.

I understand the source of your frustration but I would say that there's a difference between breaking things that work okay as-is (or would if allowed) and unbreaking things that are arguably too good. There's a different (official!) thread available for that discussion and trying to change Turbine's mind if you are so inclined.

[Tilomere]

Bingo. They are afraid wolves will take all possible feats for hit speed and doublestrike, but its VERY hard to make a build with even close to enough feats to come close and then defense is non existant compared to other topend melees with similar dps.

So like most nerfs ITS A HUGE WASTE OF TIME.

Well, hmm. A 8 druid, 6 monk, 6 ranger would be styling.

Full swf and throwing shurikens in human form, since shurikens are ammo not weapons.

Full swf and 2x twf in animal form. Still wouldn't have pali saves or recon though. It would definitely bring the Deeps though. Probably hit 10-12k on stunned mobs.

I guess thematically it is better not to let druids get too bugged though, and SWF + TWF doesn't make sense. Better to do things right once and clearly than haphazardly and wrong a bunch.

Since shurikens behave like returning ammo, SWF + thrown does make sense, although I don't know if it is intended.

[01000010]

Shurikens do NOT work with swf, they do work with swashbuckling tho. Having a shuriken mainhand on a wolf form will even disable swf, very goofy.

[01000010]

Well, hmm. A 8 druid, 6 monk, 6 ranger would be styling.

Full swf and throwing shurikens in human form, since shurikens are ammo not weapons.

Full swf and 2x twf in animal form. Still wouldn't have pali saves or recon though. It would definitely bring the Deeps though. Probably hit 10-12k on stunned mobs.

I guess thematically it is better not to let druids get too bugged though, and SWF + TWF doesn't make sense. Better to do things right once and clearly than haphazardly and wrong a bunch.

Since shurikens behave like returning ammo, SWF + thrown does make sense, although I don't know if it is intended.

Think of all the feats you need, 3x SWF, 3x nat fighting(youd want 9 lvls druid fif a dps build probably), 2x shield doublestrike feats, pwr att, cleave, gr cleave, OC, imp crit, all you get from ranger melee feat wise 2x 2wf. Can you get them all on that build? On that build youd want Mtn stance 3 as well...

Those are only melee feats, if you want decent heals youd want emp heal at least, maybe quicken and extend, both would add power to the build.

Now forget twf and substitute 6 lvls fighter for ranger, it gives 4 melee feats, very close in dps since 2 extra melee feats and or you could grab emp heal and quicken, so ranger free twf deal doesn't actually give you any extra power on the build, druid already gives rams might. Depending on how you want the build to play the 6 ranger can actually lessen the power. Only exception is if you REALLY want manyshot on a wolf build, weird, but ok.

So should they redesign fighter class to not give so many free feats? Change orbs so they don't add doublestrike from shield feats? change druid so natural fighting doesn't work when multiclassed at all? everything mentioned is similar in power to the ranger 2wf deal.

WASTE OF TIME. There are other builds that are more powerful.


EDIT: after review I realize you wouldn't want shield feats on your build since orb uncenters, but then you cant have 6 monk if you want the nat fighting feats so maybe build not eaxactly what youd go with anyway.

[Tilomere]

Shurikens do NOT work with swf, they do work with swashbuckling tho. Having a shuriken mainhand on a wolf form will even disable swf, very goofy.

Do they get the speed boost for having a single melee weapon equipped offhand? They are often treated as ammo, so with a single melee offhand and thrown main I would think SWF would give the speed stance boost since you only have a single 1H weapon equipped.

My understanding is that shuriken work somewhat like handwraps. They modify an attack, but aren't a weapon. So they wouldn't get the double stat bonus.

[01000010]

Do they get the speed boost for having a single melee weapon equipped offhand? They are often treated as ammo, so with a single melee offhand and thrown main I would think SWF would give the speed stance boost since you only have a single 1H weapon equipped.

My understanding is that shuriken work somewhat like handwraps. They modify an attack, but aren't a weapon. So they wouldn't get the double stat bonus.

tested that too, no, you cant swf with a shuriken even if you offhand another weap.

[Gremmlynn]

Benefits from the weapon-fighting feats should be mutually exclusive, but I think people should be able to *take* all 3 of the style feat categories if they choose. If you're willing to invest in the feats, there's no reason you shouldn't get to benefit from that flexibility.

The only reason why THF and SWF are mutually exclusive is that Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes would get benefit from both styles simultaneously. There are no situations where a weapon should be able to benefit from both TWF and SWF. (And if there are, then that should be fixed on the Client/Server combat side and not by locking out the feats as mutually exclusive.)


TL;DR version: Turbine - if you're going to add new features, please don't break stuff in the process. Or at least have the decency to write down what you've broken in your release notes so that we know about it.

Hmm, a possible solution would seem to be to have them on a toggle like Power Attack, Precision and Combat Expertise are, to allow players to choose which style they want to be in at any particular time, equipment allowing (mostly for bastard sword/dwarven axe).

[Glascanon]

I don't see why two-weapon fighting and single-weapon fighting would be mutually exclusive. It's not like you can use both at the same time. :P

Yes u can. Bastard word and Dwarven Axes do both fulfill the Prerequisites for 2 Handed and on handed fighting while used with a rune arm or buckler in the offhand.

But i don´t see the problem of benefiting from both if u spend that much feats for it.

[Eth]

Bingo. They are afraid wolves will take all possible feats for hit speed and doublestrike, but its VERY hard to make a build with even close to enough feats to come close and then defense is non existant compared to other topend melees with similar dps.

So like most nerfs ITS A HUGE WASTE OF TIME.

It is possible to take all the feats.
Here are two builds I did on lamma - 9Rgr/9Druid/2Fgt in EEDA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-dxB21Fdqk
Fastest time I've seen anyone post for EEDA. So DPS is quite 'good'. You're spot on though that the survivability of this build is not great (it's basically 'Kill it, before it hits you').

Here is a 9Monk/9Druid/2Fgt in EE Breaking the Ranks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroopNDngco
Could only fit in one Natural Fighting feat on this build.
But DPS and survivability are both great (Yes, I would go so far and call it 'OP').

(Both builds had the full TWF+SWF line)

[Blackheartox]

It is possible to take all the feats.
Here are two builds I did on lamma - 9Rgr/9Druid/2Fgt in EEDA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-dxB21Fdqk
Fastest time I've seen anyone post for EEDA. So DPS is quite 'good'. You're spot on though that the survivability of this build is not great (it's basically 'Kill it, before it hits you').

Here is a 9Monk/9Druid/2Fgt in EE Breaking the Ranks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroopNDngco
Could only fit in one Natural Fighting feat on this build.
But DPS and survivability are both great (Yes, I would go so far and call it 'OP').

(Both builds had the full TWF+SWF line)

From what im testing on live on a 8 6 6 split that is incredibly fun, more then fun and i can call it amazingly fun i noticed 2 things.
First the damage from greater swf seems not to aplly when im in wolf form, i might be miscalculating that but it seems only thing im getting is the attack speed and even for taht im unsure if im getting at all.
2nd thing perfect swf does not work while in wolf form, i tested over a period of 40 minutes swaping in and out of from with adrenaline recharge, fot neck and epic envenomed blades on 20 proc.
None of the times has it worked in wolf form on 19, but in human form everything worked perfectly fine.
Now if that is a bug or no, im not sure but im assuming it is, since i get icon when im swf wielding in wolf form.

What i dont know is, on lama it seemed to work perfectly fine for me, at least the damage part, but on live im not getting x2 damage, not getting the 19 proc (said that on lama alrdy) and im even unsure about the att speed tho i think that is actually the only part im getting

[Eth]

im even unsure about the att speed tho i think that is actually the only part im getting

30% difference should be really easy to notice, no?
On lamma you also got the SWF icon show up and see it accurately represented on the character sheet.

About the 200% stat damage part - no idea, my base first number wasn't that great anyway on lamma, didn't really check if it worked or not.
It's basically the sneak damage + extra procs coupled with the insane attack speed, that made this a DPS monster.

[Blackheartox]

30% difference should be really easy to notice, no?
On lamma you also got the SWF icon show up and see it accurately represented on the character sheet.

About the 200% stat damage part - no idea, my base first number wasn't that great anyway on lamma, didn't really check if it worked or not.
It's basically the sneak damage + extra procs coupled with the insane attack speed, that made this a DPS monster.

Why i said the att speed im unsure off is.. well Running with nearly maxed dstrike from killer and fatall harrier puts so many numbers on my screen its rly hard to follow it. About damage part, what might be the issue but ddo is down atm to test, maybe the ninja spy core badly interacts with swf and wolf form? Maybe if i dont pick the 3rd core il have the double damage. IF that is the case then droping 6 monk would be a definite option.

For now il say, only the att speed works.
And its still strong even with that since currently at 27 im totaly adoring celestia.
Still 7 plhos short from mortal fear shortie..Should be fun.

To the above poster, i do like to swap to bow and use manyshot..
Cuz you know its kinda fun to get stacks for blitz from range while you run to smack em up, but i have always been a fan of multitask hybrid builds.
And this one is really fun, so many buttons to press, so many things to think off, so many spells..
So many choices to distribute ap.
Exactly how id like more builds to be.. Is fun to make things like that

[Eth]

Why i said the att speed im unsure off is.. well Running with nearly maxed dstrike from killer and fatall harrier puts so many numbers on my screen its rly hard to follow it.

Hence my remark.
Do you get the SWF buff icon in wolf form?
Does the alacrity on your character sheet increase?

[Blackheartox]

Hence my remark.
Do you get the SWF buff icon in wolf form?
Does the alacrity on your character sheet increase?

Tried tested, and yes i get the alatricity part.
The 19-20 does not work at all, and the damage part is busted.
Considering mortal fear procs id say its still good