TWF locks out Single weapon fighting and visa versa

[Vellrad]

Simpliest fix possible:

make TWF, THF and SWF toglable stances.

Allow all feats to be taken together, and just let the user decide if they wish to use bastard/dorf axe as a THF or SWF depending on current situation.

[01000010]

Right now it does allow a ranger to get both, but it's a bug, and will be fixed soon.

So either youre saying rangers getting autogranted 2wf feats will be taken away OR that rangers wont be allowed to use swf, neither scenario makes any sense whatsoever.

Fix the real bugs, you want a list of bugs that have been in game forever and really suck? Ill give you one that drives me most crazy, the lr20 bug, thisll get fixed before you "fix" (nerf) rangers right?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Simpliest fix possible:

make TWF, THF and SWF toglable stances.

Allow all feats to be taken together, and just let the user decide if they wish to use bastard/dorf axe as a THF or SWF depending on current situation.

Nah, the simplest fix is to just break everything.

Though your suggestion makes the most sense.

[Funny_looking_mole]

So either youre saying rangers getting autogranted 2wf feats will be taken away OR that rangers wont be allowed to use swf

Or possibly that they can choose to be autogranted TWF feats OR SWF feats.

[ChicagoChris]

After further investigation, this is indeed a deliberate change that did not get called out correctly in the Release Notes. We'll correct this in the notes, but just to put it here: Two Weapon Fighting and Single Weapon Fighting are mutually exclusive, as is Single Weapon Fighting and Two Handed Fighting.

Just so you DDO folk don't get all beat up over this, I aways have read (and assumed) that you could pick SWF or TWF, not both. I believe it was mentioned many times in the various posts, and certainly have no issue with the concept.Loving Update 22 so far, minus the few rough edges.Keep up the great work.

[SirShen]

Right now it does allow a ranger to get both, but it's a bug, and will be fixed soon.

So rangers will never be able to take SWF?

[01000010]

So rangers will never be able to take SWF?

Exactly, it sounds like a crazy way to implement it, but I am no longer a man of faith, because ive seen crazier.

[mna]

Or possibly that they can choose to be autogranted TWF feats OR SWF feats.

I vote for this.

It'd be a natural extension of the way it was moved here from pen and paper D&D, where rangers got to choose between TWF and ranged feats for the "fighting style" feat selection.
I suppose there's just no going back to getting only one style now, heh...

[Dreppo]

I have to ask, what's the harm in being able to take both SWF and TWF feats, as long as you can't benefit from both at the same time? In the same way that you can take (for example) both Improved Crit: Slashing and Improved Crit: Ranged, each one of those feats benefitting you in a different situation.

My ask: Please make sure that no one can benefit from both SWF and TWF at the same time (surely that's not difficult??), but please allow the feats to be taken if someone wants to.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I have to ask, what's the harm in being able to take both SWF and TWF feats, as long as you can't benefit from both at the same time? In the same way that you can take (for example) both Improved Crit: Slashing and Improved Crit: Ranged, each one of those feats benefitting you in a different situation.

My ask: Please make sure that no one can benefit from both SWF and TWF at the same time (surely that's not difficult??), but please allow the feats to be taken if someone wants to.

Obvious required change for U23: you can only select one from IC: Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing/Ranged. Any one of those will now lock out all the others.

Also, you can only carry one type of weapon in your inventory. Having a slicing weapon in your hand or backpack will now lock out your inventory from all piercing and bludgeoning weapons.

[Failedlegend]

Or possibly that they can choose to be autogranted TWF feats OR SWF feats.

I agree that the rangers be able to choose their fighting style be it SWF, TWF or Ranged not be forced to choose TWF & Ranged regardless of build.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Right now it does allow a ranger to get both, but it's a bug, and will be fixed soon.

But... why? I can understand not allowing SWF and THF because of DAxes and BSwords (although I like the toggle idea, other than more stuff on my hotbars)... but by their very nature SWF and TWF are mutually exclusive at the same time. But that shouldn't make the fighting styles TOTALLY exclusive.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Right now it does allow a ranger to get both, but it's a bug, and will be fixed soon.

Whew! That game-breaking combo would be almost as dangerous as allowing someone to get both Monk run speed and Barbarian Sprint Boost at the same time!

[droid327]

Well just to play Tiefling's advocate...

Maybe they just dont want you to be able to pull out a main-gauche before you do a Coup de Grace, and have an 80% chance for a second(/third) Coup de Grace? That's the only case I can see where there's an attack designed for SWF where it might benefit more from TWF....well other than En Pointe/Blow by Blow, but those are specifically *meant* to also be useful to a THF/TWF Warchanter...

Maybe something with Druid animal form? I've seen reports about them both working at the same time, though I'm not exactly sure the details of that.

[Tilomere]

Maybe something with Druid animal form?

Druid animal form has to compete with BF monk/pali builds. They could have both and would still be less popular than being more or less unkillable.

Plus TWF +SWF Druids have to compete and will lose out to SWF + Throwing BF Monk/Pali combos any day. Technically, throwing weapons are returning ammo, not weapons, unless they fixed it.

[BigJobbs]

Right now it does allow a ranger to get both, but it's a bug, and will be fixed soon.

Hi Cordovan,

Can you please explain exactly how you intend to achieve this? Your statement suggests two options:

1. You're removing the TWF autogrant from Rangers. Um... that's going to make my Tempest build pretty unhappy.

2. You're preventing Rangers from getting SWF. That's pretty harsh, locking out the SWF feat line just because someone splashes 2 ranger levels for Bow Strength.

Both of those options go against your oft-stated intent, which is not to limit people's builds or nerf existing builds.

Please tell us there is an option 3 in which Rangers get to choose their path? Maybe give Rangers a bonus feat at level 2 in which they get to choose one of TWF or SWF, as Monks get to choose their path - light or dark, and then get ITWF or ISWF at 6th and GTWF or GSWF at 11th?

[01000010]

Druid animal form has to compete with BF monk/pali builds. They could have both and would still be less popular than being more or less unkillable.

Plus TWF +SWF Druids have to compete and will lose out to SWF + Throwing BF Monk/Pali combos any day. Technically, throwing weapons are returning ammo, not weapons, unless they fixed it.

Bingo. They are afraid wolves will take all possible feats for hit speed and doublestrike, but its VERY hard to make a build with even close to enough feats to come close and then defense is non existant compared to other topend melees with similar dps.

So like most nerfs ITS A HUGE WASTE OF TIME.

[Caprice]

I do not have anything new to say because it's already been said well, but I want to express my agreement with the crowd and general disappointment.

After further investigation, this is indeed a deliberate change that did not get called out correctly in the Release Notes. We'll correct this in the notes, but just to put it here: Two Weapon Fighting and Single Weapon Fighting are mutually exclusive, as is Single Weapon Fighting and Two Handed Fighting.

Can you provide us with any details as to why this decision was made so we can decide for ourselves whether or not we agree that those reasons are compelling? At the moment it looks fairly arbitrary and potentially destructive, as in...

Right now it does allow a ranger to get both, but it's a bug, and will be fixed soon.

I think this is a dangerous decision as many have pointed out. In my opinion Ranger 2+ splashes are nice but not overpowered options that have reasonable tradeoffs (e.g. compare to Monk 2 or Paladin 2). In this case you are going to cut down on build diversity with a feat lockout for what seem at first glance to be arbitrary reasons.

Please consider the suggestions in this thread either to give Ranger a choice of weapon feat at levels 2/7/11, Vellrad's suggestion to allow all weapon lines to be taken simultaneously but make them mutually exclusive toggles so that the effects cannot be stacked exploitively, or simply not to fix this at all.

I like Vellrad's suggestion best since I think that takes into account a broader range of classes, but the Ranger class feat idea seems the easiest to implement and would encourage Ranger splashes, which is not a bad thing IMO.

[LordArkan]

Bingo. They are afraid wolves will take all possible feats for hit speed and doublestrike, but its VERY hard to make a build with even close to enough feats to come close and then defense is non existant compared to other topend melees with similar dps.

So like most nerfs ITS A HUGE WASTE OF TIME.

I just put it together on paper. You have to be human, can't be iconic due to class/feat ordering, and have to pick two of the three:
1. Overwhelming Critical (I suppose you don't have to be human if you give this one up)
2. Natural Fighting #3
3. 7th level druid spells (Jaws of Winter, Regen)

[droid327]

1. You're removing the TWF autogrant from Rangers. Um... that's going to make my Tempest build pretty unhappy.

2. You're preventing Rangers from getting SWF. That's pretty harsh, locking out the SWF feat line just because someone splashes 2 ranger levels for Bow Strength.

Corollary to that....don't just put TWF in the Tempest cores, either, which I feel may be a tempting alternative. Unless they're all in the first 3 cores, then you're bumping the level req up for GTWF autogrants. Conversely, if they are all in the first three, then you're granting the whole TWF line by L6, which might make a /6 Rgr splash *too* good for other builds considering how much is already in that splash.