Paladin Changes

[9001]

Paladins are empowered through divinity. They don't just 'decide they want to be badass' and then get their powers. Their abilities are always described as a divinely given gift and the source of their strength. It's fused into them when their patron deity decides to grant them that power and their deity also reserves the right to remove it when it's abused. Deities also fuel divine magic. They are the root of divine classes. Secondly, Clerics are not 'battle missionaries'. Originally, the distinction to the paladin, was that he was allowed to carry weapons of war to defend his faith and demonstrate his example through strength of arms. The Cleric, like a Wizard, was a man of higher learning and greater spiritual insight, who showed his favor by powerful magic and great attunement to divine power. They did not receive the training in weapons and armor as much as Paladins and were forbidden from using any kind of edged weapon.

Faith in Eberron (as I recall) is more like real-life in the sense that gods aren't walking around/ aren't visible. So in a sense one could say they ARE powered by their faith rather than any actual deity's power (and whether or not the deity even EXISTS is up for debate in-universe).

[TromboneFireTurtle]

Faith in Eberron (as I recall) is more like real-life in the sense that gods aren't walking around/ aren't visible. So in a sense one could say they ARE powered by their faith rather than any actual deity's power (and whether or not the deity even EXISTS is up for debate in-universe).

Yeah, if I remember correctly, there are even some Eberronion faiths that actually don't have gods, but are either devoted to a philosophy, like Buddhism, or are dedicated to achieving their own divinity. I am referring to the Path of Light, the main faith of the Kalashtar, and the Blood of Vol. Also, ancestor veneration is very common in several parts of Eberron, such as that done by the Valenar elves. One also cannot describe the Undying Court as a group of deities, as it is just an advanced form of ancestor veneration. It is not always clear where divine power comes from, but I think that we can all agree that it comes through faith, whether in a deity, a concept, a value, or whatever.

[toapat]

Dude, that is pure BS. Paladins have been tied to the mode of the Christian romance notion of the knight since day one. Gygax himself admits to using the concept of the Arthurian knight, who was renowned for his piety and devotion to Christian ideals as he was for his skill in warfare and etiquette off of the field. Paladins were required to tithe wealth to church, seek out Clerics for penance if they violated their code and to study scripture as much as combat. To my knowledge, only Pathfinder to date allowed for the concept of agnostic/deity free Paladins, and allowed for devotion to an ideal. But 'inherently atheistic?' That's pure poppycock.

How about the fact that:

1: Chivalry and the Authurian knight are tied to concepts associated with Christianity which have no basis in Christian scripture.
2: Paladins did not have mandatory diefic ties until 4th. Their ties to the powers of the cosmos up until 4th was through the cosmic aspect of Absolute Good. All editions have had you choose a patron deity because Greyhawk, Blackmoore, and Faerun all have very much Status-quo enforcing gods who abuse Atheists. Only the cleric of core classes was tied to the tenants of that deity.

[superdupe6934]

How about the fact that:

1: Chivalry and the Authurian knight are tied to concepts associated with Christianity which have no basis in Christian scripture.
2: Paladins did not have mandatory diefic ties until 4th. Their ties to the powers of the cosmos up until 4th was through the cosmic aspect of Absolute Good. All editions have had you choose a patron deity because Greyhawk, Blackmoore, and Faerun all have very much Status-quo enforcing gods who abuse Atheists. Only the cleric of core classes was tied to the tenants of that deity.

Only Faerun actually had a consequence for Atheism and that was the Wall of the Faithless. But faith in Faerun is a symbiotic relationship. Gods need human worship and energy from that to sustain themselves and don't want to abuse their followers as they depend on them for existence. Mortals receive their magic and other blessings from the gods as a real, tangible source. The gods have even walked the earth in mortal form at various points. You can't deny their existence or claim to be unsure of them.

Paladins have deities as the source of their power. Their devotion earns them this. They can espouse concepts linked to divinity, like justice, charity and so on, but these are concepts that they study alongside Clerics in many cases as the Clergy and Paladins share from the same spellpool, just as Rangers and Druids tend to learn and run together. Some Paladins do side-step this, but usually only because they are called upon and receive an auto-grant from the 'Higher Power'. The religious trappings of tithes, atonement and behavior are still at the inception of the class from its first appearance. Nothing specific deity wise is laid out, but that just lets the players adjust themselves to a personal setting (such as Eberron, where faith is supposed to be closer to how it is here) to pick and choose how they want to run things.

And what about Dark Sun? Good must exist as a concept there, but there are no Paladins allowed in that setting. Setting aside 'Good' as a Force-like entity, why can't there be holy warriors in that setting? Because that setting is purely Atheist. The gods have forsaken it and when you die, you go to the grey realm and eventually just fade away.

Deities exist as the source of a Paladin's ability for other reasons, through the deity, the DM is allowed to have an objective judge who determines the right or wrong of a Paladin's actions. This is why Paladins don't necessarily fall when they jaywalk, but do when they steal, lie, etc. The divine power is a Higher Good that holds them to the strictest standard, but that's because Paladins are charged with being the hand of divinity. Clerics actually have it easier in that regard. They can play more loosely and not lose their gifts. Paladins cannot.

[bloodnose13]

How about the fact that:

1: Chivalry and the Authurian knight are tied to concepts associated with Christianity which have no basis in Christian scripture.
2: Paladins did not have mandatory diefic ties until 4th. Their ties to the powers of the cosmos up until 4th was through the cosmic aspect of Absolute Good. All editions have had you choose a patron deity because Greyhawk, Blackmoore, and Faerun all have very much Status-quo enforcing gods who abuse Atheists. Only the cleric of core classes was tied to the tenants of that deity.

we are not discussing here what paladins are in pnp, what they were based on, we are talking about what they are in ddo, and in ddo there is nothing, and i mean NOTHING that actualy woudl USE your chosen divine information for quest related things, you want example?, silver flame is dominant faith in ddo, they are like everywhere, most of the time as a damsel in distress that you have to save from own stupidity. their usual way of doing things is hunting down all other faiths as heretics JUST BECOUSE TEHY DONT follow their ....whatever they follow. yet if you make a paladin with ANY other faith than theirs there is no problem for you to work with and/or for them, and in purge the heretics quest, if you are sov host pally you are killing your own ppl BECOUSE silver flame told you to do it, FOR FAVOR and EXP!!!!, so im sorry but i still dont see any reason why paladin should be BUILT with a specific faith in mind, if only thing that it gives is bonus to some weapon and some power. whole idea could be replaced with two tiers generic faith class feat set to choose from that would be based around the ROLE you intend to asssume OR something similar. if you want fly a flag for certain faith in ddo, write it in your bio.

[toapat]

Only Faerun actually had a consequence for Atheism and that was the Wall of the Faithless. But faith in Faerun is a symbiotic relationship. Gods need human worship and energy from that to sustain themselves and don't want to abuse their followers as they depend on them for existence. Mortals receive their magic and other blessings from the gods as a real, tangible source. The gods have even walked the earth in mortal form at various points. You can't deny their existence or claim to be unsure of them.

Paladins have deities as the source of their power. Their devotion earns them this. They can espouse concepts linked to divinity, like justice, charity and so on, but these are concepts that they study alongside Clerics in many cases as the Clergy and Paladins share from the same spellpool, just as Rangers and Druids tend to learn and run together. Some Paladins do side-step this, but usually only because they are called upon and receive an auto-grant from the 'Higher Power'. The religious trappings of tithes, atonement and behavior are still at the inception of the class from its first appearance. Nothing specific deity wise is laid out, but that just lets the players adjust themselves to a personal setting (such as Eberron, where faith is supposed to be closer to how it is here) to pick and choose how they want to run things.

And what about Dark Sun? Good must exist as a concept there, but there are no Paladins allowed in that setting. Setting aside 'Good' as a Force-like entity, why can't there be holy warriors in that setting? Because that setting is purely Atheist. The gods have forsaken it and when you die, you go to the grey realm and eventually just fade away.

Deities exist as the source of a Paladin's ability for other reasons, through the deity, the DM is allowed to have an objective judge who determines the right or wrong of a Paladin's actions. This is why Paladins don't necessarily fall when they jaywalk, but do when they steal, lie, etc. The divine power is a Higher Good that holds them to the strictest standard, but that's because Paladins are charged with being the hand of divinity. Clerics actually have it easier in that regard. They can play more loosely and not lose their gifts. Paladins cannot.

No, but you can call them all out for being the horrible entities they are and not worship any of them. And you still will get tortured for it.

Again, no paladins do not. If you have ever read the PBH entries on them paladins are primarily non-theistic

Athas has always been locked from planar travel, with the only planes we can even assume we have access to from it are those of Earth, fire, and water. Whatever spot in the multiverse is occupied by cosmic Good has never been accessible, which is why paladins dont exist in it.

Clerics are the class that should be beaten to -9 HP for crossing any of their Diety's lines. Paladins again have no need for gods because unless this is 4th, playing a paladin requires no specific gods.

[Scrabbler]

Clerics are the class that should be beaten to -9 HP for crossing any of their Diety's lines. Paladins again have no need for gods because unless this is 4th, playing a paladin requires no specific gods.

Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship. A cleric devoted to good and law, for example, may be on friendly terms with the clerics of lawful and good deities and may extol the virtues of a good and lawful life, but he is not a functionary in a church hierarchy.

[toapat]

Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship. A cleric devoted to good and law, for example, may be on friendly terms with the clerics of lawful and good deities and may extol the virtues of a good and lawful life, but he is not a functionary in a church hierarchy.

clerics of ideas are fine but they should still be on way thinner ice then paladins.

[OverlordOfRats]

When making changes to the trees, please remove the abilities sharing a common pool of uses.

I have been playing a paladin lately. This is the first one I've played. I got to the point where I could take Holy Retribution and was excited. Then I realized it shared the same pool of uses with Divine Might. I have ten uses between the two at level 15, then shrine time.

Please make the enhancements unlimited with a cool down, a stance, or regenerate.

edit: As far as giving Paladins divine weapon enhancements, please don't unless you add enough deities to cover all weapons. My dwarven battle cleric really dislikes that she cannot use those enhancements because she uses dwarven axes.

[gravisrs]

Other easy ways to improve paladins:
- enhancement that let paladins ignore shield size when taking SWF so they can Single Weapon Fight even with tower shields.
- gems that regenerate (even quicker)/increase LoH/Smite Evils (like Anthem for bards, or sth like Draconic Reinvigoration in thunder-forged)
- enhancement that make Smite Evil work like a cleave
- enhancement that make Smite Evil regenerate even faster
- make Holy Sword spell scalable with level, like +(0.5-1) enhancement or +0.25[W] every paladin level (I remember that spell from pnp to be very powerful)
- update bulwark Aura to give a percentage amount of AC

[Free2Pay]

How about switching the stats used for Divine Grace to the Intimidate Skill (which is charisma based) instead? It is cross-class skill for most non-melee characters and should achieve the intended nerf?

[bloodnose13]

Other easy ways to improve paladins:
- enhancement that let paladins ignore shield size when taking SWF so they can Single Weapon Fight even with tower shields.
- gems that regenerate (even quicker)/increase LoH/Smite Evils (like Anthem for bards, or sth like Draconic Reinvigoration in thunder-forged)
- enhancement that make Smite Evil work like a cleave
- enhancement that make Smite Evil regenerate even faster
- make Holy Sword spell scalable with level, like +(0.5-1) enhancement or +0.25[W] every paladin level (I remember that spell from pnp to be very powerful)
- update bulwark Aura to give a percentage amount of AC

- update bulwark Aura to give a percentage amount of AC
i dont think that its a good idea, i mean it would benefit mostly those who have lot of ac already, those with low values of ac would not see diffrence, and we talk about aura so something that is to work for everyone around paladin not just him, fact is that what it gives now is no help at higher levels, so maybe it should give not only bonus to ac but prr and maybe some stacking uncapped bonus to dodge?

- make Holy Sword spell scalable with level, like +(0.5-1) enhancement or +0.25[W] every paladin level (I remember that spell from pnp to be very powerful)
0.5 per 5 levels? would make it +2w at lvl 20, it would compensate for damage bonuses other classes get in their enchancements, but first it has to be a spell like arti imbues, that apply to held weapon.

- gems that regenerate (even quicker)/increase LoH/Smite Evils (like Anthem for bards, or sth like Draconic Reinvigoration in thunder-forged)
yes, that is missing for a long time, there are weapon and item enchancements for everything but this. augument versions would be nice too.

- enhancement that let paladins ignore shield size when taking SWF so they can Single Weapon Fight even with tower shields.
um NO ty..... there is no way paladin woudl benefit from this other than being starved on feats even more, its already hard to squeeze in all shield feats, i think that shield feats should get reworked a bit, first of all improved shield bash and shield absorbtion should get absorbed into shield mastery feats, double strike could go bye bye and be replaced by attack speed bonus and damage stat scaleing like in swf, but not as big of a bonus as on swf. its way better to hit more often all the time, than have chance to hit twice 20 % of time. 3 shield mastery feats, so mastery, improved, and greater, shield users are single weapon fighters too in some way.

[toapat]

How about switching the stats used for Divine Grace to the Intimidate Skill (which is charisma based) instead? It is cross-class skill for most non-melee characters and should achieve the intended nerf?

because +20 to intimidate items exist

[Qhualor]

Other easy ways to improve paladins:
- enhancement that let paladins ignore shield size when taking SWF so they can Single Weapon Fight even with tower shields.
- gems that regenerate (even quicker)/increase LoH/Smite Evils (like Anthem for bards, or sth like Draconic Reinvigoration in thunder-forged)
- enhancement that make Smite Evil work like a cleave
- enhancement that make Smite Evil regenerate even faster
- make Holy Sword spell scalable with level, like +(0.5-1) enhancement or +0.25[W] every paladin level (I remember that spell from pnp to be very powerful)
- update bulwark Aura to give a percentage amount of AC

you cant use a shield while SWF unless you take Skirmisher and have to be in the Swashbuckling stance which means taking levels of bard.

not only that, pretty lopsided or unbalancing to use a tower shield while using a bastard sword or some other weapon.

[HatsuharuZ]

Any idea when/if the devs are going to post something in forums concerning the new/improved paladin trees? *quivering with anticipation* ^_^


On another note, what's the point of arguing about the role of religion in *Eberron*? A cleric in Eberron could believe in Banjo the Clown and still receive spells. The same goes for paladins!

[Psiandron]

Any idea when/if the devs are going to post something in forums concerning the new/improved paladin trees? *quivering with anticipation* ^_^

They tend to clam up pretty often. It's Turbine Jake.

On another note, what's the point of arguing about the role of religion in *Eberron*? A cleric in Eberron could believe in Banjo the Clown and still receive spells. The same goes for paladins!

You got a problem with that?

[toapat]

On another note, what's the point of arguing about the role of religion in *Eberron*? A cleric in Eberron could believe in Banjo the Clown and still receive spells. The same goes for paladins!

because its offensive to have someone else dictate what a paladin should be when that runs not just counter to what a paladin is, but how they are throughout the TSR editions of DnD and 3rd edition.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Just popped in to point out that KOTC paladins lost a couple Smite uses when the enhancement update occurred. They used to get an additional Smite use at KOTC cores 6, 12, and 18. It would be great if KOTC again granted an additional Smite at a couple of those cores.

[9001]

because its offensive to have someone else dictate what a paladin should be when that runs not just counter to what a paladin is, but how they are throughout the TSR editions of DnD and 3rd edition.

But that's the point. In Eberron, what a paladin *is* is slightly different due to the way that religion works there. Religion power comes from faith rather than any tangible or provably existing god.

[HatsuharuZ]

because its offensive to have someone else dictate what a paladin should be when that runs not just counter to what a paladin is, but how they are throughout the TSR editions of DnD and 3rd edition.

What does that have to with the price of large devil scales?

I'm not going to disagree with you because I disagree with you, I'm going to disagree with you because if your perception of what the paladin is were implemented, it would lead to them being nerfed in DDO. Your (non-religious?) version of the paladin wouldn't get Unyielding Soveriegnity or any of the other faith feats, nor would they get bonuses to favored weapons. Of course, the current selection of favored weapons is very poor, but it's more likely that Turbine is going to upgrade that particular mechanic then they are to get rid of it, since it's already on live.