Paladin Changes

[Ryiah]

Severlin can you introduce yourself because nobody knows who you are.

He's from the Asheron's Call team. The forums there list him as the producer.

[Wipey]

I play pure paladins. So, you're quite wrong on your third point. I play fleshie paladins and the BF SLAs have no impact on me.

If you already have a Paladin it doesn't affect you, but it might mean less people going to play a Pally. Going with 15 or more levels.
Someone rolling a new toon or starting a new life probably has some idea what they want from their character ( how much defense, does it need ranged, degree of self healing, methods of self healing, something "special " to bring, opt for some race for various reasons, racial trees, aesthetics, whatever ).

14 levels for CSW, 15 levels for two spell slots ( Zeal in this case ) is pretty good incentive I would say for Ranger or Pally.
Traditional strengths of those two classes. It IS really good, scrolls, Cocoon, Dragonmarks just can't compare.
Enough bard levels for ccw, enough cleric/fvs levels for heal ? Every split has its strengths/weaknesses.

Bladeforged doesn't have to choose, doesn't have to think about advantages or disadvantages. Why would you even consider more than 2, 4 or 6 levels when you have racial Recon SLA.

Arguably every self healing method is a proxy nerf ( for the lack of a better word ) to viability / popularity of classes that "sacrifice" something to have self healing advantage.

[toapat]

This is the best idea I have heard in this thread. Instead of all the other nonsense just make smite cooldown scale with paladin level. The higher level the paladin the shorter the cool down. At level 20 there should be no cool down at all. With one stroke you will have eliminated the "problem" with paladins and paladin splashes.

it wouldnt fix everything, and i had already suggested that Smite evil should cool down in Parallel not serial. currently the CD of smite evil combined with 7 charges of smite evil (not that difficult to obtain) results in always having a charge up

[Zasral]

By lvl capped you mean lvl 20? Because right now any toon can make it very easy... We are talking about End Game and right now paladins are the worst melee class in game.

No I mean lvl 28. I run ee a lot. Twf not great but decent dps, and nearly unkillable.

[maddong]

Some replies:

~ Fighter and Paladin will get Vanguard, so yes they will get a new tree. This continues our goal of giving all classes at least three trees.

~ Our goal is to boost the Paladin trees, particularly the cores, so Paladins have a reason to level. We also want to boost the Paladin's spells since we feel that getting a new spell level should be exciting and the Paladin spells are lackluster. Buffs tend to be eclipsed by itemization.

~ One problem with the game in general is that, outside criticals, damage doesn't scale into epic. One of our goals is to fix that so things like the light damage Paladins can inflict with Turn Undead, the extra d6s in the cores, the Rogue Assassin's venom damage and Shadow Dagger, and similar effects will scale for melee characters.

Sev~

Ok the last patch is done. Let's get our preview please so we can give feedback!

Also how about selling +20 hearts in the store!

[Yaga_Nub]

...

Also how about selling +20 hearts in the store!

***** selling them. They'll need to give them out free.

[Silverleafeon]

Ok the last patch is done. Let's get our preview please so we can give feedback!

This week has been very busy for me, reading and pondering.

I have been playing some Magic the Gathering Online and mowing grass to help clear my mind.

So, when I went to post my pondered feedback, there was even more stuff in Never Never Land...


No promises, but I am happy reading thru things today.

Take that as Ho0o0ope or Do0o0o0o0om as you like it...

[B0ltdrag0n]

This week has been very busy for me, reading and pondering.

I have been playing some Magic the Gathering Online and mowing grass to help clear my mind.

So, when I went to post my pondered feedback, there was even more stuff in Never Never Land...


No promises, but I am happy reading thru things today.

Take that as Ho0o0ope or Do0o0o0o0om as you like it...

Doom it is.

[Kalevor]

No I mean lvl 28. I run ee a lot. Twf not great but decent dps, and nearly unkillable.

20 pal 8 epic doing EE solo? sorry but if you can do that it's not because paladin rocks, it's because you are a master in the game... an avarage gamer like me can't do any good with a pure 20 pal on EE...

[bloodnose13]

i so realy hope those changes wont end with adding one new prestige and minor tweaks, and forgetting about it again for more years.

damage feat sounded realy good, not only becouse it was to scale with spellpower, but also becouse it would be an universal damage boost not tied into prestiges. i realy hope that devs wont leave defender again as is, becouse as far as survivability goes, they need dps too, and badly, i dont ask for them to be top tier, but at least just bit behind and not on other side of the dps scale,

i also have suggestion about shield mastery feats, they should get some boost too, maybe instead of shield mastery/ improved shield mastery/ improved shield bash/ shield deflection, they could get merged a bit to form something like shield mastery/ improved .../ greater ....... that would have on them all of the shield related effects, also maybe some changes based on single weapon fighting feats would be approperiate, since shield users are fighting witth one weapon too, maybe not as great bonuses as from swf but still some boost in attack speed, damage stat scaleing to damage.

heroic levels are the fundaments of the class so they should be fixed first, and destinies fixed accordingly to heroic, saying that a splash of paladin in most powerfull destiny with most powerfull weapon can squeeze lot of damage is pointless,

one more thing:maybe each class should get 20 more ap, to bring it to 100 and a new tree, epic class tree, such tree would comprise of non stacking effects similar to the ones in related destiny, and epic destinies to be renamed and reworked to be class extensions, sort of epic professions, where destiny would not be used to make character much more powerful but to add utility to it by adding elements that are not available to it at heroic levels.
then as example, paladin tank would not be required to run around in sentinel destiny becouse everything needed to be a tank would be in epic class tree, and sentinel destiny would become a go to destiny for any other class attempting to makeing their character more sturdy, and tank like.

just a thought.

[Zasral]

20 pal 8 epic doing EE solo? sorry but if you can do that it's not because paladin rocks, it's because you are a master in the game... an avarage gamer like me can't do any good with a pure 20 pal on EE...

The last thing I am is a master of this game. Only on my second life. My gear is nothing special. However my saves are in the 60's. Around 105 ac not useing shield. My prr varies a lot depending on destiny, but at its lowest I think 55. Can switch a couple pieces of gear around sacrifice some dps for around 90. Switch destinies for a lot more in high damage quest. 5/rest loh. I can't remember the last time I had to use one. Healing spring/ cocoon gets the job done. High healing amp and slot devotion aug in my off hand. I take a ton of damage but get a full heal every 20 sec from healing spring 2/rest. CSW heals for over 200 can't remember last time I used it either. A 1/ rest heal from deity that I only used a couple times cause it restores stat damage. Plus I could always scroll cast heals but I've had a stack of 100 for weeks that I have never used, and of course silver flame pots. I am built half/half damage/defensive. Like I said my dps isn't good in groups I fall way behind in kill counts except in da of course. Solo I can kill the casters faster than they can heal, if barely.

[Zasral]

i so realy hope those changes wont end with adding one new prestige and minor tweaks, and forgetting about it again for more years.

damage feat sounded realy good, not only becouse it was to scale with spellpower, but also becouse it would be an universal damage boost not tied into prestiges. i realy hope that devs wont leave defender again as is, becouse as far as survivability goes, they need dps too, and badly, i dont ask for them to be top tier, but at least just bit behind and not on other side of the dps scale,

i also have suggestion about shield mastery feats, they should get some boost too, maybe instead of shield mastery/ improved shield mastery/ improved shield bash/ shield deflection, they could get merged a bit to form something like shield mastery/ improved .../ greater ....... that would have on them all of the shield related effects, also maybe some changes based on single weapon fighting feats would be approperiate, since shield users are fighting witth one weapon too, maybe not as great bonuses as from swf but still some boost in attack speed, damage stat scaleing to damage.

heroic levels are the fundaments of the class so they should be fixed first, and destinies fixed accordingly to heroic, saying that a splash of paladin in most powerfull destiny with most powerfull weapon can squeeze lot of damage is pointless,

one more thing:maybe each class should get 20 more ap, to bring it to 100 and a new tree, epic class tree, such tree would comprise of non stacking effects similar to the ones in related destiny, and epic destinies to be renamed and reworked to be class extensions, sort of epic professions, where destiny would not be used to make character much more powerful but to add utility to it by adding elements that are not available to it at heroic levels.
then as example, paladin tank would not be required to run around in sentinel destiny becouse everything needed to be a tank would be in epic class tree, and sentinel destiny would become a go to destiny for any other class attempting to makeing their character more sturdy, and tank like.

just a thought.

This is one of the better ideas I've seen have the ap cap at your highest lvl in a single class make the capstone nice and see a lot more pures playing.

[toapat]

This is one of the better ideas I've seen have the ap cap at your highest lvl in a single class make the capstone nice and see a lot more pures playing.

you missinterpreted the idea, the idea presented was that classes be extended for 5 levels into epic with a specific epic tree for each class, your interpretation, that lvl 20 pureclassing gives +20 ap, sounds better then it really is, because all that would do is benefit the strongest classes in the game

[Zasral]

you missinterpreted the idea, the idea presented was that classes be extended for 5 levels into epic with a specific epic tree for each class, your interpretation, that lvl 20 pureclassing gives +20 ap, sounds better then it really is, because all that would do is benefit the strongest classes in the game

That depends on if they can balance the classes with epic capstones.

[Delacroix21]

Some replies:

~ Fighter and Paladin will get Vanguard, so yes they will get a new tree. This continues our goal of giving all classes at least three trees.

~ Our goal is to boost the Paladin trees, particularly the cores, so Paladins have a reason to level. We also want to boost the Paladin's spells since we feel that getting a new spell level should be exciting and the Paladin spells are lackluster. Buffs tend to be eclipsed by itemization.

~ One problem with the game in general is that, outside criticals, damage doesn't scale into epic. One of our goals is to fix that so things like the light damage Paladins can inflict with Turn Undead, the extra d6s in the cores, the Rogue Assassin's venom damage and Shadow Dagger, and similar effects will scale for melee characters.

Sev~

The problem lies with how you guys coded epic levels, essentially they add the same thing to everyone, and dont in anyway boost the classes at all. All your abilities that scale with class level, dont improve at all as the toon gains epic levels. that 3d6 per hit isnt going to mean much in EE with some red names having 400,000+hp, nor will 75 temporary hitpoints with mobs hitting for well over 200-300.


How about adding epic class levels?


For instance=
Classes who now have abilities based on class, have these abilities improve with every Epic level. So for example a 10rogue/10monk at level 28 would count as a level 18 rogue and level 18 monk for fast movement, unarmed die, sneak attack, etc.


But doesn't that buff multiclasses more? Not at all!


Because TRUE epic classes will get real COOL abilities, like a level 21 monk will get something shiny, but a level 28 monk will get something AMAZING! (a level 21 monk could only have 13 class levels of monk and 8 epic levels). That way people will WANT more class levels in a class in order to have the epic abilities, and even with a level cap of 30, no one will have even 2 tier 1 epic class abilities as a 10xxxx/10xxxx will only count as a 20xxx/20xxx and have no "epic class levels". So a 10wiz/10cleric sounds cool as they would have level 9 spells of both classes, but not compared to a 20 wiz or 20 cleric who would count as a level 30 wiz/cleric and have certain EPIC spells (granted at wiz 21/22/23 etc. like epic fireball, epic chain lightning, etc.) instead of whimpy heroic spells.



How about them bananas!

[Yaga_Nub]

This week has been very busy for me, reading and pondering.

I have been playing some Magic the Gathering Online and mowing grass to help clear my mind.

So, when I went to post my pondered feedback, there was even more stuff in Never Never Land...


No promises, but I am happy reading thru things today.

Take that as Ho0o0ope or Do0o0o0o0om as you like it...

Who are you? Why do we care if you're happy or not? And why the hell would anything you do or say spell hope or doom for anyone else in the game?

Someone's gotten a bit to big for their britches.

[HatsuharuZ]

I think some people have forgotten that this is a thread for discussing paladins....

Also, I hope that now that bards have gotten an enhancement makeover, new/improved paladin enhancement trees will be posted on the forums~

[bloodnose13]

you missinterpreted the idea, the idea presented was that classes be extended for 5 levels into epic with a specific epic tree for each class, your interpretation, that lvl 20 pureclassing gives +20 ap, sounds better then it really is, because all that would do is benefit the strongest classes in the game

yes you are correct, that was the thought behind it, those ap to be granted by epic levels, and to be possible to be spent ONLY in epic class tree, the idea behind it is pretty good i think, as it would mean that class role would end with class trees, and destiny would just expand character with other abilities based on diffrent classes, (example a paladin tank would be a tank with just that and would not be automaticaly forced to use sentinel and only sentinel, i think that would be a way better use for destinies)

[Silverleafeon]

I think some people have forgotten that this is a thread for discussing paladins....

Also, I hope that now that bards have gotten an enhancement makeover, new/improved paladin enhancement trees will be posted on the forums~

I told Sev what he has in Never Never Land was good enough to send out to you folks.
Patience, and good luck when it arrives.
Looking forward to see what you do with it.

[Psiandron]

The problem lies with how you guys coded epic levels, essentially they add the same thing to everyone, and dont in anyway boost the classes at all. All your abilities that scale with class level, dont improve at all as the toon gains epic levels. that 3d6 per hit isnt going to mean much in EE with some red names having 400,000+hp, nor will 75 temporary hitpoints with mobs hitting for well over 200-300.


How about adding epic class levels?


For instance=
Classes who now have abilities based on class, have these abilities improve with every Epic level. So for example a 10rogue/10monk at level 28 would count as a level 18 rogue and level 18 monk for fast movement, unarmed die, sneak attack, etc.


But doesn't that buff multiclasses more? Not at all!


Because TRUE epic classes will get real COOL abilities, like a level 21 monk will get something shiny, but a level 28 monk will get something AMAZING! (a level 21 monk could only have 13 class levels of monk and 8 epic levels). That way people will WANT more class levels in a class in order to have the epic abilities, and even with a level cap of 30, no one will have even 2 tier 1 epic class abilities as a 10xxxx/10xxxx will only count as a 20xxx/20xxx and have no "epic class levels". So a 10wiz/10cleric sounds cool as they would have level 9 spells of both classes, but not compared to a 20 wiz or 20 cleric who would count as a level 30 wiz/cleric and have certain EPIC spells (granted at wiz 21/22/23 etc. like epic fireball, epic chain lightning, etc.) instead of whimpy heroic spells.



How about them bananas!

Nice bananas!

Interesting idea. I suppose limiting post level 20 classes already taken. Even without anything new a lot of classes, especially casters, would be much better off in off EDs if their level alone counted for something.

I don't see them making this change, but it's a nice idea. More what i expected when I first heard about epic levels really.