Paladin Changes

[Scrabbler]

incorrect. Undead have quadruple CR to Hitdice because they cant have con scores. Those with Unholy Toughness have to be hand CR'd because they get cha to hp.
Skeletons also are the weakest creatures in the game, being incapable of actually hitting anything because they lack all physical senses and as a result are blind

Where do you get this stuff? I mean, what game system are you using?

I'm looking at the Monster Manual right now. A CR 6 Skeleton is 12 HD, which is double (not quadruple). A CR 5 Wraith (another kind of Undead) is 5 HD, which is not double or quadruple. And of course a Skeleton is not blind (it even has Darkvision)

[bennyson]

I'm looking at the Monster Manual right now.

Which Monster Manual are you using? There are many.

[Scrabbler]

Which Monster Manual are you using? There are many.

For questions regarding differences between DDO and the source material, the proper reference is D&D 3.5 Monster Manual (the latest version in the year DDO was published). Things like 4e, Pathfinder, AD&D, or 5e are not relevant.

[9001]

I keep hearing about how paladins are feat-starved, I seem to hear it more than, say a barbarian (who's more likely to use THF and probably NOT sword and board). Maybe the problem isn't necessarily that they don't get enough feats, but rather they need too many. I think the THF bonuses for bastard swords and daxes should be removed AND a proper shield style line of feats should be added. Since we have swf, the bs/da and no shield is accounted for, having a real shield line would account for the sword and board line AND not restrict characters to a particular weapon. Cutting down some of the must-have feats or changing some requirements (like on overwhelming critical) would be helpful as well.

[toapat]

For questions regarding differences between DDO and the source material, the proper reference is D&D 3.5 Monster Manual (the latest version in the year DDO was published). Things like 4e, Pathfinder, AD&D, or 5e are not relevant.

I have no idea what Monster manual you are using, because the advancement rules, where the actual HD to CR conversion is, is 1/4 for Aberrations, Constructs, Elementals, Fey, Giants, Humanoids, Ooze, Plants, Undead and Vermin.

Only Dragons, Outsiders, and Nonassociated class levels progress at half cr.

[oradafu]

Thank you!!!! Finally someone gets it. I was vastly underwhelmed when I read that paladins would be getting a only a couple d6's worth of extra light damage. Paladins smite evil ability is EXTREMELY weak, when you consider it is one of their main abilities. You have a limited number of them (very slow regen rate), they do an extremely small increase of damage (even when maxed out), and creatures move a lot. Compare that to say adrenaline, which most barbs use. Vorpal attack..you get a chance to get another one. You vorpal a lot more vs the regen rate of smite evils. People are crit'ing for an insane amount of damage with adrenaline (and you basically are guaranteed to get a crit), smites only increases the threat range a little bit. It is on a timer for when you actually hit your next opponent....smites are gone.

Everything else in the game gets crit range increases or crit multiplier increases for sustained attacks. Paladins for the most part only get extra d 6's that work on a limited amount of enemies.

Let me first say that I agree with what you are saying. Heck, I've been arguing to improve the Paladin trees for over a year. I was the first person to point out that Paladins got nothing to boost damage against all mobs, except via Damage Boost (which is limited) and Divine Might (which got nerfed because its is impossible to get +8 damage by level 20 prior to the change).

Paladins do need something that causes scale damage. I pointed out when Holy Retribution was the only thing in the Paladin trees that give a +xW, unlike every other melee tree. Holy Retribution also is limited to Turn Undead charges, which are shared with several other Paladin abilities, but most notably Divine Might.

But I think you go off track by comparing Paladin enhancements with a ED. The discussion doesn't need to be used to compare the enhancements with EDs, because the comparsion of paladin DPS enhancements against ALL other classes (not just melee) are damning. As pointed out above, Turn Undead along with Smiting (and a less annoying extent Divine Sacrifice) are the only ways to boost DPS in the Paladin trees but they are limited. However other melee trees get unlimited damage boosters on cooldowns: Execute, Assassinate, Hunter's Mercy, Aimed Shot, Dance of Death, Growing Storm, A Thousand Cuts, Bleed Them Out, Quick Strike, Sweeping Strike, Staff Lunge, Smite Weakness, Shattering Strike, A Good Death, Cracking Attack, Hate, Cruel Cut, etc.

Even comparing Paladins DPS to an Eldritch Knight makes Paladins look bad. Sure, both need to spend something to do damage, Paladins have a small number of Smites while Wizards and Sorcs have tons of SP. At level 20, an Eldritch Knight using Eldritch Tempest with a small SP pool could set off that ability over twice as often as a Paladin could Smite, and do more damage to multiple mobs while also also CCing mobs with a knockdown. And the Paladin has to wait how long before those Smites return? And this is without mentioning SP pots. (Aside: It still sticks in my craw that the casters can gain full BAB, while full BAB classes are penalized in Epics.)

I keep hearing about how paladins are feat-starved, I seem to hear it more than, say a barbarian (who's more likely to use THF and probably NOT sword and board). Maybe the problem isn't necessarily that they don't get enough feats, but rather they need too many. I think the THF bonuses for bastard swords and daxes should be removed AND a proper shield style line of feats should be added. Since we have swf, the bs/da and no shield is accounted for, having a real shield line would account for the sword and board line AND not restrict characters to a particular weapon. Cutting down some of the must-have feats or changing some requirements (like on overwhelming critical) would be helpful as well.

I'm not sure about other players, but I think the Shield Mastery line and Tower Shield Proficiency feats should be free for Paladins. I don't use Shields on my Paladin much, so whether they are added or not will not affect my character. However, it would seem that those 3 feats would go a long way to making Sword and Board easier for Paladins. Again, this was another thing pointed out over a year ago when the new enhancement system was put in place that was ignored about the Sacred Defender tree being Shield focused yet Paladins couldn't afford the Shield line. Seriously the tree is Shield heavy with extremely high AP costs and no free Shield feats given to Paladins, all it does is force Paladins to multiclass, and more than likely into the Fighter class that has a near duplicate tree (and it looks like Paladins will get to share another tree with Fighters, yay?).

[Steiner-Davion]

In D&D a CR 1 Skeleton would be 2 HD, a CR 5 Skeleton would be 10 HD, etc. Skeletons and Zombies have HD of twice their CR, because their slow movement makes them less dangerous. DDO has often followed that pattern for those monsters.

If that was the case then, Turning Undead woiuld actually be feasable at the early levels. As it is in DDO Turning Undead is not a truly feasable endeavor, even at the high levels, and it is because the Turn Undead Mechanicshavebeen directly ported over from Pen & Paper, while the HD of the Monsters has been drastically increased.

Turn Undead in DDO is beyond broken, and is only useful for powering a very select few (more like 1 or 2) PrE Enchancements.

[Steiner-Davion]

In D&D a CR 1 Skeleton would be 2 HD, a CR 5 Skeleton would be 10 HD, etc. Skeletons and Zombies have HD of twice their CR, because their slow movement makes them less dangerous. DDO has often followed that pattern for those monsters.

Additionally I challenge anyone to create a Build that can truly succeed at Turn Undead at Level on a very consistent basis. The onlyway to come close in DDO is to completely focuson Turn Undead, which requires a character crippling investment in Feats and enhancements.

Whether I'm playing my Cleric or Paladin, I have only had success doing this when I was way over level, though my Paladin's (Hunter of the Dead) were a bit closer in Level than my Clerics.

If they want ot Fix Turn Undead for Paladins and Clerics, they need to revisit the HD aspect of the Turn Undead Mechanic and/or how they calculate their Max HD that they can turn. They haven't done so in nearly 8 1/2 + years, I doubt they will do so.

[Scrabbler]

I have no idea what Monster manual you are using, because the advancement rules, where the actual HD to CR conversion is, is 1/4 for Aberrations, Constructs, Elementals, Fey, Giants, Humanoids, Ooze, Plants, Undead and Vermin.

You're getting confused by inapplicable rules. To find out the CR and HD of a monster you don't have to apply some far-flung math equations; simply look at the page for the monster and find the lines starting with "HD" and "CR".

Bylooking at the Skeleton page, we see that a CR 1 Skeleton has 2 HD. At CR 2 it has 5 HD, 3:6, 4:9, 5:10, 6:12, 7:17, or 8:19. The CR:HD ratios vary from 1:2 to 1:2.5. None of the Skeletons have HD close to 4x CR. Looking up other kinds of Undead like Wraiths or Vampires (but not Zombies) reveals HD within +/- 2 from CR.

[Scrabbler]

If they want ot Fix Turn Undead for Paladins and Clerics, they need to revisit the HD aspect of the Turn Undead Mechanic and/or how they calculate their Max HD that they can turn. They haven't done so in nearly 8 1/2 + years, I doubt they will do so.

The problem is bigger than that. There's also uses per day, which in DDO is the same as in D&D... but the number of undead you can face before resting is 10x - 20x higher.

But more important is that it is bad game design to focus a lot of a class's power and complexity on an ability that can only work on exactly one kind of monster. If Turn Undead becomes a strong ability, that means Cleric + Paladin are overpowered in undead quests, and underpowered everywhere else... that's not fun.

Player abilities that work on just a small fraction of monsters should be kept as minor, easy-to-use benefits when you happen to be fighting that kind of creature. They shouldn't be something players build towards or designers prioritize. No matter how well you can Turn Undead it'll never help you fight ogres!! (By that reasoning, a lot of the KOTC enhancements are design errors because they function only on Undead+EO)

[oradafu]

Additionally I challenge anyone to create a Build that can truly succeed at Turn Undead at Level on a very consistent basis. The onlyway to come close in DDO is to completely focuson Turn Undead, which requires a character crippling investment in Feats and enhancements.

Whether I'm playing my Cleric or Paladin, I have only had success doing this when I was way over level, though my Paladin's (Hunter of the Dead) were a bit closer in Level than my Clerics.

If they want ot Fix Turn Undead for Paladins and Clerics, they need to revisit the HD aspect of the Turn Undead Mechanic and/or how they calculate their Max HD that they can turn. They haven't done so in nearly 8 1/2 + years, I doubt they will do so.

I'm pretty sure the Devs dropped the idea of making Turn Undead useful for its intended purpose years ago.

When the new enhancement system was made, you can clearly see that Clerics Turn Undead was strictly used for healing/cleansing, while the Paladin Turn Undead was for DPS and defense boosting. Unfortunately for Paladins, they never recieved the Endless turning ability so once those Turn Undeads are gone, no more Defense or DPS usage.

[oradafu]

(By that reasoning, a lot of the KOTC enhancements are design errors because they function only on Undead+EO)

It's even worse than what you stated. The KOTC as a whole only function against Undead OR Evil Outsiders.

Besides the assinine split in the core abilities of KOTC, there are places that only do damage to one type of mob. Turn Undead and Divine Light only works on Undead. Censure only works on Evil or Chaotic Outsiders. Only Passion works on both mob types and nothing else, while Holy Retribution works on anything Evil if it doesn't save while burning a Turn Undead (that doesn't regenerate).

[Steiner-Davion]

The problem is bigger than that. There's also uses per day, which in DDO is the same as in D&D... but the number of undead you can face before resting is 10x - 20x higher.

I totally agree, but since Paladins and Clerics can get enhancements which regenerate their TurnUndead attempts between "rest periods", I don't think the nujmber of Turns available in DDO per Shrine/day iss a real problem.

But more important is that it is bad game design to focus a lot of a class's power and complexity on an ability that can only work on exactly one kind of monster. If Turn Undead becomes a strong ability, that means Cleric + Paladin are overpowered in undead quests, and underpowered everywhere else... that's not fun.

Player abilities that work on just a small fraction of monsters should be kept as minor, easy-to-use benefits when you happen to be fighting that kind of creature. They shouldn't be something players build towards or designers prioritize. No matter how well you can Turn Undead it'll never help you fight ogres!! (By that reasoning, a lot of the KOTC enhancements are design errors because they function only on Undead+EO)

Well said on both accounts.

[Scrabbler]

It's even worse than what you stated. The KOTC as a whole only function against Undead OR Evil Outsiders.

To summarize, KOTC includes 31 icons. 8 of them are limited to Undead or Evil Outsider, and 1 gives a bonus effect to Undead/EO.

The split they should aim for is that about 12-15 icons work on anything, 12-15 work on Evil opponents, and 2-3 are restricted to Undead/EO. Instead of creating enhancements for Undead/EO specifically, many of the regular KOTC icons should include a final rule about having a free bonus effect if the opponent is Undead/EO.

That way, the increased performance against very specific enemy types feels like the Paladin is getting a free bonus, not like he's paying AP just in case that kind of monster shows up.

[oradafu]

I totally agree, but since Paladins and Clerics can get enhancements which regenerate their TurnUndead attempts between "rest periods", I don't think the nujmber of Turns available in DDO per Shrine/day iss a real problem.

Wrong.

Clerics get Endless turning. Paladins do not have any enhancement that regenerates Turn Undead.

Paladins have to wait until level 20 and either be in the new Divine Crysader ED or twist Endless Turning.

[Steiner-Davion]

Wrong.

Clerics get Endless turning. Paladins do not have any enhancement that regenerates Turn Undead.

Paladins have to wait until level 20 and either be in the new Divine Crysader ED or twist Endless Turning.

I stand corrected.

Regardless of that, my current life 2 fighter/18 paladin, currently 2/16 with 19 banked, has never had an issue with the number of Turn Undead uses, for the few things that are powered by it.

It really is not the numbers of uses available, but the actual usefulness of the class ability.

[Yaga_Nub]

... In other words, Monster HD is way over inflated in DDO (HD is what thye use for Hitpoint, among other things), so the lowly 1HD Skeleton that your level 1 Cleric would find in a normal P&P Game of D&D and be able to Turn is unturnable in DDO.

A long time ago I was told that all the mobs HD were exactly the same as they appeared in the MM with an additional field in the file that included the extra HP a mob needed to survive in DDO. It was done that way so that spells that worked on HD didn't have to be changed from the DnD descriptions. I never really believed them but it sounded good so I went along with it. Later that same person told me they changed how they did mob HP/HD (and added HD cap of the Trap the Soul spell even though the spell isn't supposed to have a cap) because it was beginning to be too hard to keep up with the bonus HP field so they just started adding more and more HD but it was hidden by the CR rating (intentionally).

[Violith]

A long time ago I was told that all the mobs HD were exactly the same as they appeared in the MM with an additional field in the file that included the extra HP a mob needed to survive in DDO. It was done that way so that spells that worked on HD didn't have to be changed from the DnD descriptions. I never really believed them but it sounded good so I went along with it. Later that same person told me they changed how they did mob HP/HD (and added HD cap of the Trap the Soul spell even though the spell isn't supposed to have a cap) because it was beginning to be too hard to keep up with the bonus HP field so they just started adding more and more HD but it was hidden by the CR rating (intentionally).

that is somewhat true, although they did just lower alot of the undead HD to allow spells and turn undead which based off of hd to work against them, still didnt help much but it did help some. however, CR in ddo isnt hte same as pnp. CR was based around a party of 4 of the level equal to the CR. thus a CR 8 mob (or group of mobs that equalled 8) would be a good challange for 4 level 8 characters. ... in ddo, we got 1-6 lvl 28 chracters going against multiple 70+CR's. as for undead hd, I wouldnt be surprised if they were higher then the pnp manual. heck if they werent all player race skeletons would be 1hd (Since skeletons lose all class hd)

[toapat]

You're getting confused by inapplicable rules. To find out the CR and HD of a monster you don't have to apply some far-flung math equations; simply look at the page for the monster and find the lines starting with "HD" and "CR".

Bylooking at the Skeleton page, we see that a CR 1 Skeleton has 2 HD. At CR 2 it has 5 HD, 3:6, 4:9, 5:10, 6:12, 7:17, or 8:19. The CR:HD ratios vary from 1:2 to 1:2.5. None of the Skeletons have HD close to 4x CR. Looking up other kinds of Undead like Wraiths or Vampires (but not Zombies) reveals HD within +/- 2 from CR.

Except you are wrong.

The rules where CR to HD comes from are the creature advancement rules. By straight Hitdice advancement, undead gain 1CR for every 4HD. a Skeleton is the absolute worst undead, requiring at least 10HD to actually match the capacities of other CR1s due to having no perceptions whatsoever.

The examples of undead you can pull are either Mindless, such as Skeletons and Zombies, which scale at 1/4 level, or intelligent, which typically have class levels, such as the Mummy is actually a cleric.

Disassociated Class Levels, which is how undead are progressed in the MM, is 1/2 CR rate.

[poltt48]

I pretty much hate changes coming. First you are still forcing people to tank cause vanguard is a sword and board enhancement tree. So how the hell are they not forced to tank? Second why are pally and fighters becoming pretty much same thing? Other then pallys have crappy spells and fighters get more feats. How it is looking now there is no other difference with changes coming. Third I have still not seen a single thing put out by devs showing how they will be worth leveling up. Saying your going to make better enhancements don't mean I want to level a pally just means will take few levels pally to get the enhancements if they worth it. Since enhancements take very few levels to get. I really have to say that this is a epic fail from what I am seeing so far to help improve them.