Armor and Mitigation Changes

[Ayseifn]

Certain casters can get away with blocking all day, only stopping to cast a spell every now and then. They're the big winners of the armour change and only classes I can ever see wanting to take the Shield Deflection feat.

[oradafu]

Maybe "difficult" isn't exactly the right word, but timing blocks is not a well-functioning mechanic in DDO. Tying an important feature to actively blocking won't be easy to make work.

Basically, if you add bonuses that make active blocking more protective, the result won't be players trying to mix blocks at the right time during battle... they'll use it to become semi-invulnerable and remove themselves from combat for long periods.

If you were around pre-MOTU and before PRR was introduced, that's pretty much what pure casters would do to tank. Esecpially after dots were added. It wasn't unusual for casters to pull aggro off of tanks (whether they were AC tanks, monk/monk splashed evason tanks or WF tanks) back then. When that happened, the caster would just huddle up behind their Shield until they had to heal themselves or throw another dot.

In fact, there was a period of time where raids would only accept casters in them, since they could cover all the bases.

Much like the PRR was suppose to be a move away from pajamas and allow armor to function equally except the Devs allowed monks to hit the peak PRR levels, I can see any shield/orb blocking changes easily doing the same thing with casters. Heck, they've made things a lot easier to using Armor for arcanes with the last few trees that they've added. As I've pointed out, only melee casters (both arcane or divine) gain full BAB in epic levels, even though they are suppose to have the worst BAB in the game. Full BAB means that they gain more PRR, so they gain better protection that true melees.

[9001]

Sorry for skipping a bunch of convo in case I missed something like this.

I just wanted to ask the devs to, if they DO want to keep the caps where they are, could you possibly have diminishing returns at the different intervals, rather than just a straight cap? I think it would still limit light builds without completely removing the incentive to get a bit more PRR/MRR.

[Zakan]

So I kind of zoned as I read this and my math head went all fuzzy so sorry if I'm wrong... but if I'm reading this correctly then someone with high PRR (and therefor MRR) can essentially just ignore almost 80% of spell damage? With resistances, maybe a fireshield/ energy sheath, we are talking about characters who can entirely dump reflex saves and still take barely any damage from traps and spells. Anyone with evasion suddenly has got themselves wondering why they bothered keeping saves high and not just maxing PRR instead. If this change takes place, heavy armor PRR builds will dominate DDO instead of evasion builds. I'm not saying that the domination of the evasion builds is a good thing, but I think that this update would be overkill.

[Scrabbler]

Anyone with evasion suddenly has got themselves wondering why they bothered keeping saves high and not just maxing PRR instead. If this change takes place, heavy armor PRR builds will dominate DDO instead of evasion builds. I'm not saying that the domination of the evasion builds is a good thing, but I think that this update would be overkill.

That thing about not needing saving throws is a big part of the reason I'd prefer a different system than MRR; create something so that wearing heavy armor or using a good shield can improve your damage multipliers for Reflex effects to better than the default 100% (fail) and 50% (pass). They wouldn't be as good as Evasion / Imp Evasion, because the reduced numbers wouldn't be as good as 50% (fail) and 0% (pass)... but they'd get S&B armored tanks much closer, while retaining the need to pump saving throws.

However, one shortcoming of that scheme is that it makes Paladin splash even more important than it is already. They would need a separate set of changes to allow non-Paladin characters the opportunity to add a second ability score to some saving throws.

[Free2Pay]

Please also remove the countdown for equipping armors - make it as instant as clothes swapping. Not knowing how much heavy armor will be useful, light armor with shield and evasion are often the best bet. Unlike PnP where spell spammable per encounter is fixed, what you have here is the low HP of heavy armor fighters to survive the encounter. If MRR is not an option, at least make fighter classes have 5 to 7x of their current HP.

[B0ltdrag0n]

So I kind of zoned as I read this and my math head went all fuzzy so sorry if I'm wrong... but if I'm reading this correctly then someone with high PRR (and therefor MRR) can essentially just ignore almost 80% of spell damage? With resistances, maybe a fireshield/ energy sheath, we are talking about characters who can entirely dump reflex saves and still take barely any damage from traps and spells. Anyone with evasion suddenly has got themselves wondering why they bothered keeping saves high and not just maxing PRR instead. If this change takes place, heavy armor PRR builds will dominate DDO instead of evasion builds. I'm not saying that the domination of the evasion builds is a good thing, but I think that this update would be overkill.

I think this is false. Monk Splashes will remain very VERY effective As Centered DPS is quite a difference to non centered.

[JOTMON]

That thing about not needing saving throws is a big part of the reason I'd prefer a different system than MRR; create something so that wearing heavy armor or using a good shield can improve your damage multipliers for Reflex effects to better than the default 100% (fail) and 50% (pass). They wouldn't be as good as Evasion / Imp Evasion, because the reduced numbers wouldn't be as good as 50% (fail) and 0% (pass)... but they'd get S&B armored tanks much closer, while retaining the need to pump saving throws.

However, one shortcoming of that scheme is that it makes Paladin splash even more important than it is already. They would need a separate set of changes to allow non-Paladin characters the opportunity to add a second ability score to some saving throws.

I would like to see something like ranged spells do not work when cast at someone within melee distance.

Boss shoots a disintigrate spell, but because you are within 6 feet of him it does nothing.. you are too close for these types of spells to be effective.
Much like how our spells dot fire when the mob runs past you and you get the error you must be facing the ....
The moncher firing away from a distance, however,... bob and weave..

[Bhaub]

These changes are excellent. Mostly.

Seriously, I'm happy about this. However, I'm just a little irked that heavy shields will nullify Evasion. I've been playing a cleric/rogue in light armor with a heavy shield since level 2, and my shield specialization feats look a bit lackluster if I am confined to a light shield (I never had even the slightest intention of ever equipping a tower shield).

Why don't you change the multiplier on shields to PRR and MRR to this:

Heavy Shield: 1.5
Tower Shield: 2.25

And change it to where only tower shields negate evasion? No self-respecting evader would wear a tower shield anyway, but you can make it that much more unpalatable while making it more tempting to heavy armor tanks. I promise you, my light armor heavy shield evader is never going to come close to 200 PRR and the gains I would get from my suggestions are acceptable when compared with the DPS I lose by using a shield.

[Zakan]

I read through it a second time and this time I noticed the mention of a potential new class. I'm curious and kind of excited. Heavy armor and shield based, so that rules out a couple but I still don't know what class it could be. Anyone have ideas as to what they are hinting at?

[MangLord]

Much like the PRR was suppose to be a move away from pajamas and allow armor to function equally except the Devs allowed monks to hit the peak PRR levels.

I kinda feel like despite player outcry on OPness, monks continue to get all the really choice stuff update after update. There are very few bad choices for monk, while its easy to totally blow it with almost every other class. I could sign my pensioner mom up for DDO, roll her up a half decent 28pt dwarf monk and she would own 1-20 with a -100 penalty to gaming skills. The enhancement pass didn't hurt monk at all, it only served to increase the build potential, despite the forums openly acknowledging that monk is the vastly superior class. On the surreal side, I never thought I'd see a day when quarterstaves were a highly prized weapon. Then monks got exclusive access to the epic vorpal strike feat, on top of the 1d8 increase and Violence Begets Violence. You'd think barbarian would get auto-vorpals on a 20. It's like someone on the team is having an affair with the monk class and giving it special favors. Personally, I see monk splashes and write the build off as easy buttoning.

[Ebondevil]

I read through it a second time and this time I noticed the mention of a potential new class. I'm curious and kind of excited. Heavy armor and shield based, so that rules out a couple but I still don't know what class it could be. Anyone have ideas as to what they are hinting at?

Had a look through my 3.5 Collection of books and possibilities from them that I see are as follows:
Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook)
Divine Mind (Complete Psionic)
Soulborn (Magic of Incarnum)
Crusader (The Book of Nine Swords)
Samurai (Complete Warrior)

Any of these options, except maybe Samurai would be quite cool as it would be introducing a new system into DDO:
Psychic Warrior and Divine Mind are both Psionic Classes.
Soulborn uses the Magic of Incarnum, letting them manufacture their own magic items after each rest which grow in power with the user.
And the Crusader uses Martial Maneuvers, various stances which give bonuses like the Monk forms, and various different attacks that recharge out of combat.

There may be options in books I don't have, or they might turn a Prestige Class into a full Class, or make something completely different.

I'd Guess Samurai, or perhaps if we're lucky Crusader, the other options would probably be too much work.

[HuneyMunster]

I would like to see something like ranged spells do not work when cast at someone within melee distance.

Boss shoots a disintigrate spell, but because you are within 6 feet of him it does nothing.. you are too close for these types of spells to be effective.
Much like how our spells dot fire when the mob runs past you and you get the error you must be facing the ....
The moncher firing away from a distance, however,... bob and weave..

The same would have to also apply to two handed weapons because there is no room to swing a great axe when a mob is sanding on your toes. Also range of most melee weapons should shortened as you can cleave mobs that are further away than the length of the weapon can reach.

[TromboneFireTurtle]

Had a look through my 3.5 Collection of books and possibilities from them that I see are as follows:
Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook)
Divine Mind (Complete Psionic)
Soulborn (Magic of Incarnum)
Crusader (The Book of Nine Swords)
Samurai (Complete Warrior)

Any of these options, except maybe Samurai would be quite cool as it would be introducing a new system into DDO:
Psychic Warrior and Divine Mind are both Psionic Classes.
Soulborn uses the Magic of Incarnum, letting them manufacture their own magic items after each rest which grow in power with the user.
And the Crusader uses Martial Maneuvers, various stances which give bonuses like the Monk forms, and various different attacks that recharge out of combat.

There may be options in books I don't have, or they might turn a Prestige Class into a full Class, or make something completely different.

I'd Guess Samurai, or perhaps if we're lucky Crusader, the other options would probably be too much work.

If I had to guess, I'd say the the Psychic Warrior/Battlemind is the new class. This being based on some dev posts from around the forums, though I could be wrong.

As a side note, in 4e, the Battlemind is THE best class at forced movement. If Battlemind is the next class, the inclusion of a forced movement mechanic would promote tactical maneuvering and positioning.

[Zakan]

If I had to guess, I'd say the the Psychic Warrior/Battlemind is the new class. This being based on some dev posts from around the forums, though I could be wrong.

As a side note, in 4e, the Battlemind is THE best class at forced movement. If Battlemind is the next class, the inclusion of a forced movement mechanic would promote tactical maneuvering and positioning.

If this is the case, I'm betting it will only be very simple forced movement (i.e. pulling someone right next to you, pushing them directly away from you), as throwing people around any other way would probably be a lot of work and very hard to make work properly. But a Battlemind could be interesting, ass it'd mark the introduction of psionics into the game. I personally hope that they DO make a new class because I just love options upon options. Maybe itd even be more OP than the monk XD

[JOTMON]

The same would have to also apply to two handed weapons because there is no room to swing a great axe when a mob is sanding on your toes. Also range of most melee weapons should shortened as you can cleave mobs that are further away than the length of the weapon can reach.

perhaps some day, but for now you are just overcomplicating.

Weapon size, attack speeds, stamina, all othe factors of weapon size that are not considered...

For now just looking for fixes that Turbine can implement in the short term to help S&B be viable vs ranged instead of having current worthless aggro tanks die from 3 hits instead of 2, while ranged toons chain kite and kill 30 mobs.

[Severlin]

Greetings,

There is an updated thread that has more recent information on this topic.

Check it out here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...eloper-Diary-1

Sev~