Armor and Mitigation Changes

[Aviya]

Making it a tier 5 defender enhancement will lock splashes out of the auto block feature.
Saves us from developer time and the fix backlash.

It shouldn't be stuff for tanks only.
The devs and the players want to reduce gap between evasion characters and non evasion heavy armored characters.
That's why I'm saying just a T1 simple enhancement in defender, eldrich and warpriest trees that any class can take if they don't want to have evasion.
It would help to reduce the incoming damage when you wear medium or heavy armor and would also benefit tanks because they would get to stack shield block mechanics on top of that rewarding an active playstyle

[Arlathen]

1. Change to Physical Resist Rating Formula
- No issues with this.


2. Introduction of Magical Resist Rating
- This is really good, I like the idea of being able to 'absorb' magical damage as a person who invests in the appropiate feats, enhancements and equipment.

- I also approve that items providing PRR should provide the same level of MRR retroactively. While there's scope for seperate gear enhancements for PRR/MRR, I would like to see a combined enhancement continued.

3. Armor and Ratings
- I agree with the outline values of PRR/MRR per armour type.

- I think its a good move to remove BAB as part of the equation to simplify things. Most characters have a way to achieve BAB = Heroic Class level anyway.

- I also agree with the outline values of PRR/MRR per Shield type.

- I think a slight change in shield multiplier to support a change to Evasion Restrictions is warranted:

• Buckler: 1.0x / no additional PRR/MRR
• Light Shield: 1.0x / no additional PRR/MRR
• Heavy Shield: 1.5x / +50% additional PRR/MRR
• Tower Shield: 2.0x / +100% additional PRR/MRR

In addition, this differentiates Tower & Large Shields further, making a choice between two more meaningful.


4. Resist Rating Caps and Evasion
- I agree with the current stance on what armours negate the Evasion Feat.

- Again, I think a slight change to Shield restrictions should be undertaken:

• Buckler: Evasion or Improved Evasion both allowed
• Light Shield: Evasion or Improved Evasion both allowed
• Heavy Shield: Evasion allowed, no Improved Evasion
• Tower Shield: No Evasion or Improved Evasion

These changes make Light Armour/Heavy Shield Evasion tanks still viable but also rewards Heavy Armour/Tower Shield tanks with more viability with more overall PRR/MRR for there investment of Armor/Shield choice.

- I think you should more heavily restrict PRR/MRR Hard Caps on different Armor Types:

• Robes or Outfit: 75 PRR/75 MRR
• Light Armor: 150 PRR/150 PRR
• Medium Armor: 250 PRR/250 MRR
• Heavy Armor: No Cap

Light Armour/No Armour already benefits from potential Evasion use, and has Improved Evasion been considered in this equation? With a PRR/MRR of 100 and Improved Evasion, your typical Monk is going to Automatically avoid 70% of incoming magical damage, even with a Reflex save of 0 when playing in Epic Elite content.

So, I think it it would also be a good idea to allow this cap to be raised if wearing a Shield:

• Buckler: +5 PRR/MRR
• Light Shield: +10 PRR/MRR
• Heavy Shield: +30 PRR/MRR
• Tower Shield: +50 PRR/MRR

This helps encourage the use of shields of Defensive purposes, even on Light/No Armour toons.

- I also think that the original statement for minimum Dodge Caps should be re-introduced, with the proviso that special armours can exceed these Dodge Caps based on MDB values as well as allowing current Feats, Enhancements and Epic Destiny abilities to raise these Dodge Caps if the MDB of the Armour exceeds the Dodge Cap.

Let me explain a little further on this point: The original proposal stated that Heavy Armour would have a Dodge Cap of 5%, even if the armour only provided 3 MDB. Thats fine, and I have no problem with a Heavy Armour wearer receiving 5% Dodge through appropiate feats or enhancements. If the said armor wearer was to wear a Mobility Item (+2MDB), take Sacred Armour Mastery 3 from Sacred Defender and also twiste Lithe from Shadow Dancer then that should allow the Heavy Armour wearer to get to a maximum of 14% Dodge, equal to the new MDB of 14.


5. DPS is Terrible when using a Shield
You really, really need to take a step back here and start with fixing the Combat Style of Weapon & Shield fighting. I would suggest as a starting point:


- You discard the exisiting Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery feats
Create a new line of 3 feats, similar to TWF/THF/SWF that rolls up THF & Shield Mastery abilities:

- Weapon & Shield Fighting (Requires 15 Strength, 12 Dexterity, no BAB requirement)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

• You strike glancing blows
• Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st and 4th Animation, at 25% of your Mainhand damage
• You receive a 10% bonus to Double Strike
• You receive a stacking +10/+10 PRR/MRR bonus

- Improved Weapon & shield Fighting (Requires 17 Strength, 14 Dexterity, BAB 6)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

• Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st,2nd and 4th Animation, at 50% of your Mainhand damage
• You receive a further 10% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +20%
• You receive a further stacking +10 PRR/MRR bonus, for a total of +20

- Greater Weapon & shield Fighting (Requires 17 Strength, 14 Dexterity, BAB 11)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

• Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Animation, at 75% of your Mainhand damage
• You receive a further 10% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +30%
• You receive a further stacking +10 PRR/MRR bonus, for a total of +30

- Create a new Epic Destiny Feat for Perfect Weapon & Shield Fighting:
Perfect Weapon & Shield Fighting (Requires Greater Weapon & Shield Fighting feat)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

• You receive a further 20% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +50%

Certain Epic abilities would need slightly adjusting but should remain compatible - Legendary Shield Mastery from Unyielding Sentinal, the Epic Moment from Fury of the Wild as examples.

6. New Prestiges
- Vanguard I am highly intrigued by. I look forward to seeing this!
- Shieldbearer also sounds similarly interesting, but more so the suggested options on Tactics.

[pesch1991]

1. Change to Physical Resist Rating Formula
- No issues with this.


2. Introduction of Magical Resist Rating
- This is really good, I like the idea of being able to 'absorb' magical damage as a person who invests in the appropiate feats, enhancements and equipment.

- I also approve that items providing PRR should provide the same level of MRR retroactively. While there's scope for seperate gear enhancements for PRR/MRR, I would like to see a combined enhancement continued.

3. Armor and Ratings
- I agree with the outline values of PRR/MRR per armour type.

- I think its a good move to remove BAB as part of the equation to simplify things. Most characters have a way to achieve BAB = Heroic Class level anyway.

- I also agree with the outline values of PRR/MRR per Shield type.

- I think a slight change in shield multiplier to support a change to Evasion Restrictions is warranted:

• Buckler: 1.0x / no additional PRR/MRR
• Light Shield: 1.0x / no additional PRR/MRR
• Heavy Shield: 1.5x / +50% additional PRR/MRR
• Tower Shield: 2.0x / +100% additional PRR/MRR

In addition, this differentiates Tower & Large Shields further, making a choice between two more meaningful.


4. Resist Rating Caps and Evasion
- I agree with the current stance on what armours negate the Evasion Feat.

- Again, I think a slight change to Shield restrictions should be undertaken:

• Buckler: Evasion or Improved Evasion both allowed
• Light Shield: Evasion or Improved Evasion both allowed
• Heavy Shield: Evasion allowed, no Improved Evasion
• Tower Shield: No Evasion or Improved Evasion

These changes make Light Armour/Heavy Shield Evasion tanks still viable but also rewards Heavy Armour/Tower Shield tanks with more viability with more overall PRR/MRR for there investment of Armor/Shield choice.

- I think you should more heavily restrict PRR/MRR Hard Caps on different Armor Types:

• Robes or Outfit: 75 PRR/75 MRR
• Light Armor: 150 PRR/150 PRR
• Medium Armor: 250 PRR/250 MRR
• Heavy Armor: No Cap

Light Armour/No Armour already benefits from potential Evasion use, and has Improved Evasion been considered in this equation? With a PRR/MRR of 100 and Improved Evasion, your typical Monk is going to Automatically avoid 70% of incoming magical damage, even with a Reflex save of 0 when playing in Epic Elite content.

So, I think it it would also be a good idea to allow this cap to be raised if wearing a Shield:

• Buckler: +5 PRR/MRR
• Light Shield: +10 PRR/MRR
• Heavy Shield: +30 PRR/MRR
• Tower Shield: +50 PRR/MRR

This helps encourage the use of shields of Defensive purposes, even on Light/No Armour toons.

- I also think that the original statement for minimum Dodge Caps should be re-introduced, with the proviso that special armours can exceed these Dodge Caps based on MDB values as well as allowing current Feats, Enhancements and Epic Destiny abilities to raise these Dodge Caps if the MDB of the Armour exceeds the Dodge Cap.

Let me explain a little further on this point: The original proposal stated that Heavy Armour would have a Dodge Cap of 5%, even if the armour only provided 3 MDB. Thats fine, and I have no problem with a Heavy Armour wearer receiving 5% Dodge through appropiate feats or enhancements. If the said armor wearer was to wear a Mobility Item (+2MDB), take Sacred Armour Mastery 3 from Sacred Defender and also twiste Lithe from Shadow Dancer then that should allow the Heavy Armour wearer to get to a maximum of 14% Dodge, equal to the new MDB of 14.


5. DPS is Terrible when using a Shield
You really, really need to take a step back here and start with fixing the Combat Style of Weapon & Shield fighting. I would suggest as a starting point:


- You discard the exisiting Shield Mastery / Improved Shield Mastery feats
Create a new line of 3 feats, similar to TWF/THF/SWF that rolls up THF & Shield Mastery abilities:

- Weapon & Shield Fighting (Requires 15 Strength, 12 Dexterity, no BAB requirement)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

• You strike glancing blows
• Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st and 4th Animation, at 25% of your Mainhand damage
• You receive a 10% bonus to Double Strike
• You receive a stacking +10/+10 PRR/MRR bonus

- Improved Weapon & shield Fighting (Requires 17 Strength, 14 Dexterity, BAB 6)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

• Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st,2nd and 4th Animation, at 50% of your Mainhand damage
• You receive a further 10% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +20%
• You receive a further stacking +10 PRR/MRR bonus, for a total of +20

- Greater Weapon & shield Fighting (Requires 17 Strength, 14 Dexterity, BAB 11)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

• Your Glancing Blows strike on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Animation, at 75% of your Mainhand damage
• You receive a further 10% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +30%
• You receive a further stacking +10 PRR/MRR bonus, for a total of +30

- Create a new Epic Destiny Feat for Perfect Weapon & Shield Fighting:
Perfect Weapon & Shield Fighting (Requires Greater Weapon & Shield Fighting feat)
While wielding a Weapon and Shield:

• You receive a further 20% bonus to Double Strike, for a total of +50%

Certain Epic abilities would need slightly adjusting but should remain compatible - Legendary Shield Mastery from Unyielding Sentinal, the Epic Moment from Fury of the Wild as examples.

6. New Prestiges
- Vanguard I am highly intrigued by. I look forward to seeing this!
- Shieldbearer also sounds similarly interesting, but more so the suggested options on Tactics.

he wont restrict prr but mrr nerfing robes is a bad idea because there are many who have over 75

[lyrecono]

flattening the prr curve is still good, rewarding heavier armor and shields with more prr is still good.
Rewarding tanks with active block bonus only when the turbine servers aren't lagging out? not such a good idea.
One lag spikes ends with a soul stone and an angry boss heading to the party, the tank gets booted from the party and blacklisted
Places that benefit from tanks are notoriously loaded with heavy lag, cutting out a large segment of tanks due to lag? no thank you.
Adding Tier 1 enhancements for this to the eldrich and warpriest trees? no, if you want better defenses, go paly/fighter, it's the price you payed for learning magic to begin with.

Having the auto block in a tier 5 for fighters and paladins (you know, the heavy plate & tower shield wielding core classes that the dev's are trying to help?) would ensure this isn't going to end up horribly misused like evasion splashes.

all they need to do for this is add 1 enhancement to 2 tree's, adapt the number of shield/energy block to an acceptable level and make sure light/magic missile, negative damage and an assortment of other spells are added to the block out list.

Far better then adding mrr that that seems so easily abused (see earlier calculation) and will most likely add other problems (remember ghostbanes? loot tables still aren't fixed correctly, remember terror? took away one of the few decent toys thf toons had around that level, remember all the other things that went haywire over the years? It might be more beneficial to keep certain things simple.

[Lalangamena]

very good changes, people who love heavy armors and shield will find their place in the game again.


p.s.
captain america has buckler, so his dodge not affected.
maybe hulk can dodge with tower shield...

[Severlin]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

~ Successful reflex saves still reduce damage of appropriate spells by half. Power builds that manage to build good reflex saves will still get that mitigation.

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)

Sev~

[Krelar]

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)

You forgot: And with lag it is almost impossible to time correctly anyways.

[alancarp]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

~ Successful reflex saves still reduce damage of appropriate spells by half. Power builds that manage to build good reflex saves will still get that mitigation.

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)

Sev~

I am not running for office, but I approve of this message. Oh, and your keyboard has a ~ thing stuck on it.

[Madja]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

Sev~

If the upcoming level 30 cap is meant to be the final level cap, then there shouldn't be that much more gear growth left. Once ML:30 raid gear has been made, that will hopefully be the pinncacle of power as gear goes. New items shouldn't be more powerful but instead offer different combinations of effects or offer entirely new effects.

The power creep will get worse if gear just keeps getting more and more powerful while the level stays the same.

[Gauthaag]

I must admit i simply hate the idea of mitigating magical damage by wearing heavier armor - at least all magical dmg.

We have innate magic resistent races - dwarves, drows - classes or prestiges with special training to beat magic - but sure main protection from magic damage, should be inch of steel. this is imho change made just for change itself and to calm down all those heavy armor tanks.

It makes pretty sense heavy shield or armor from pretty mundane material protects me from mind attack like mind thrust or necromantic spells....yeah i m sure those attack need to deal with armor first to have any effect. i would understand armor could protect against same type of dmg evasion does (ie mostly elemental type spells - tho the picture of knight being safe in steel armor feeling comfortable in ball lightning makes me laugh) , even against spell evasion doesnot protect like rays, but making it to give general protection sounds simply dumb to me.

also it bring another question: if this system enters live, will it bring a way to emulate it with magic? and another one: will mobs have similar protection as well?

[Zerkul]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

~ Successful reflex saves still reduce damage of appropriate spells by half. Power builds that manage to build good reflex saves will still get that mitigation.

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)

Sev~

At first glance all the changes you proposed looks cool. Sorry for this slight off-topic but I see you're in charge also for the barbarian class (looks like), any change for it planned in future?

[Grailhawk]

~ The to hit values of creatures in Epic Elite content would be rebalanced so high Armor Class builds will have some mitigation.

Have you ever though of using AC to grant a Dodge and PRR/MRR bonus. Quite frankly DDO has never been able to get AC and To-Hit to work the situation used to be either you were on the die or off, now in the hardest content mobs just always hit you unless you are one of the few who goes crazy with AC and gets "on the die", aka the same thing not really working. Even if you adjust monster To-Hit and get things balanced reasonably well i don't expect to see it last (AC was some what balanced when MotU hit but has since gone lopsided like it always does)

A system where AC grants a Dodge and PRR/MRR bonus would allow every one to see some value in AC.

Example
No Armor: Dodge += 0.1*AC, PRR += 0.0*AC
Light Armor: Dodge += 0.08*AC, PRR += 0.2*AC
Medium Armor: Dodge += 0.06*AC, PRR += 0.35*AC
Heavy Armor: Dodge += 0.04*AC, PRR += 0.5*AC

[Psiandron]

tho the picture of knight being safe in steel armor feeling comfortable in ball lightning makes me laugh

Really? I'm an electrican and while I never found it particularly troubling to work around energized gear back when they allowed you to do that more often, plasma balls scare the hell out of me. They respond to the vagaries of the magnetic fields around them and all possible grounding options, basically there is no way of knowing where the main thrust of the explosion is going to go. Plasma balls are easily capable of blowing your head off or your body in two and do not require extreme proximity to melt your eyeballs or even your face. A guy in plate mail which would likely provide a contiguous path for the energy around him might well be relatively safer than the guy standing there with metal rivets and zipper in his jeans.

[Psiandron]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

~ Successful reflex saves still reduce damage of appropriate spells by half. Power builds that manage to build good reflex saves will still get that mitigation.

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)

Sev~

So far, this sounds good. Honestly though I think that you may need to just make some calls on the values and get some testing in. The odds are it's going to need a little tweaking.

[Yaga_Nub]

Granted: Now includes all magic, including hjeels as well. (Too oldschool DnD?) (Seriously though, could see the merit in that.)

Since you can voluntarily drop your SR (but it has to stay down for the whole round), why not?

[Yaga_Nub]

To think if they would have made spell resistance work on damage spells like it should be and not jacked up CR's way too high, we could have used real "magic" resistance that already exists in DND. Spell Resistance is already in game and doesn't work, why don't you fix that?

AC, DR, and SR already covered most of the recent changes from the past few years(PRR, MRR, Dodge). Now things are just overly complicated.

Preach it brother!

[Scraap]

Since you can voluntarily drop your SR (but it has to stay down for the whole round), why not?

Honestly, I could easily see em make that a stance if they wanted to replicate that type of thing. If they must tie armor into the notion: SR+((ArmorCategory+Enhancement)*ArmorMultiplier)+( (ShieldCategory+Enhancement)*ShieldMultiplier) Might keep it linear enough not to completely fall off the d20. Maybe a bump up to a D40, but past that the spikes would be so irregular as to have no variation in outcome from a practical perspective.

[Yaga_Nub]

Honestly, I could easily see em make that a stance if they wanted to replicate that type of thing. If they must tie armor into the notion: SR+((ArmorCategory+Enhancement)*ArmorMultiplier)+( (ShieldCategory+Enhancement)*ShieldMultiplier) Might keep it linear enough not to completely fall off the d20. Maybe a bump up to a D40, but past that the spikes would be so irregular as to have no variation in outcome from a practical perspective.

You don't need to do that but the idea of a stance would be cool. It's a flat d100 role. No multipliers, no nothing. If you have 30% then that's all you get and there's no way to boost it either. If an item gives 30% as well then there's no "item bonus" or "enhancement bonus" to SR. That way it stays a little reasonable.

[Thar]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

~ Successful reflex saves still reduce damage of appropriate spells by half. Power builds that manage to build good reflex saves will still get that mitigation.

~ We wouldn't want to add a system where you no longer have to hold down block to get its benefits as it would remove a play mechanic from the game. (Yes, we know that current system isn't very rewarding and kills DPS.)

Sev~

Please address how the cost of evasion is balanced against these changes as evasion requires another class that causes you to lose capstone, probably DPS, lower armor class, PRR (and now MRR) against the 20 fighter or pally that just picks up a new armor off the vendor and bam is at a very similar output of damage reduction. IS this fair? NOOOOOOOO.

and give evasion people their heavy shields back!!

[deathblaze]

On an evasion fighter in light armor (older style evasion tanks) using a shield currently grants AC and PRR plus bonuses from stances. By removing shields from being possible for evasion you kill this type of build (is currently on its last leg). The extra boost to AC and PRR are needed sometimes for tanking. How about instead of losing evasion they just don't get the magical resistance? They would keep evasion and get the ac and PRR making this type of build still viable.

More options > less options.

^THIS.
The current suggested changes are like saying "If you want to tank, you can't have Evasion. Also, your splashes/gear are for naught now."
I was already bummed when SWF was announced to not work with shields (which would have been a good boost to S&B DPS).
But now it looks like the light armor evasion shield tanks may have to finally kick the bucket.
(I also recently grinded out a Purple Dragon Shield and Shadow Dragon light armor, so I'm especially peeved!)
This problem is emerging because of the overly complicated suggested changes to handle magical damage.
Just leave shields alone and fix the problem which mainly lies with the armor system (or the lack of it).

On a side note, the Purple Dragon Shield should either change to be a large shield instead or have its model changed because it looks nothing like a tower shield!