Armor and Mitigation Changes

[Severlin]

I am a bit concerned about non-evasion light and no armor builds, but I personally always build for evasion. I do want to point out that a first level character can get +1 plate mail, but a ranger won't have evasion until ninth level. Evasion characters also have to invest a lot of points and items to get their evasion high enough to be effective. Again characters wearing heavy armor and carrying shields would get these advantages automatically.

Evasion builds have to stack Reflex saving throw bonuses, while heavy armor builds will want to stack PRR (and thus MRR) to reach similar levels of mitigation. Both should make sacrifices to gear towards mitigation.

Sev~

[ForgettableNPC]

Armor and shields combined MDB (whichever is lower) + feats +PRE +ED + itemization.

Right, so the Epic Duelist's Leathers I'm wearing now currently has a Max Dex Bonus of 28, and the Dodge Cap is at 25%, so if the Dodge Cap for light armor was capped at 20%, it would decrease if I were to use it again should this change occur.

Again. Do you not know how Dodge Caps currently work? ....

So based on that, I think I have a pretty decent concept of how Dodge Caps currently work, good sir.

[Severlin]

I guess there is where I'm a bit confused. In the current system, you have a Dodge Cap of 25% or Max Dex, whichever is lower. From what I read it seemed like your Dodge Cap would be 20% if you were wearing light armor and in essence lose 5% dodge over the current system if you had the Max Dex enhancements that took your armor to 25+ Max Dex and the exact same Dodge Cap increasing feats (there are none that I know of) and Enhancements (very few of those).

This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

[Seikojin]

Thanks for bringing this in. And Hello new name I haven't seen before

[Desonde]

I like these changes, but it's going to require the other half of the equation to take part.

The Druids Curse chain is a prime example where this isn't as ideal since CR 28 (EH) mobs spawn in groups of 8 all spamming evadable spells. Each spell does 150-200 unmitigated damage. So when solo with the numbers you've outlined (260 -> 520) and (150-45[resist])*.2238=23.499 damage from each caster, which is fine except that it's multiplied by 8 (to 187.992) for every couple of seconds. Then you factor in the dungeon scaling (which for damage is it capped at 70% like hp or is it 140% for damage?) it changes it to 46.998 per hit (if 70%, 70.497 if 140%) which means the heavily armored toon in mid epic content must be healed after every magical attack cycle.

And those are the numbers that heavily favor the new system. Against physical attacks the prr is only 260 and the attacks from an unscaled CR 28 mob are still ~70 which is (70-5)*.3658 = 23.777, which if coupled with the new AC system allows for decent total mitigation is perfect (with 140% scaling it's 59.6254, which should be where top end peaking (where a CR 70 mob has a base damage of 150-250 per attack)).

Even with these proposed changes, without a change to the damage output, mob hp and the scaling of the two, having a character melee focus in high end content will generally be very draining on a party.

[onny]

Right, so the Epic Duelist's Leathers I'm wearing now currently has a Max Dex Bonus of 28, and the Dodge Cap is at 25%, so if the Dodge Cap for light armor was capped at 20%, it would decrease if I were to use it again should this change occur.



So based on that, I think I have a pretty decent concept of how Dodge Caps currently work, good sir.

Talking about 2 different dodge caps. theres the max dodge cap (25 currently) and the dodge cap imposed by armor. hes talking about changing the max cap imposed by armor. Not the max cap. the max cap will still be 25 unless you have a pre or epic enhancement that increases your max dodge cap.

To answer another persons comment a 1st lvl fighter could put on heavy plate and a heavy shield (most lvl 1s don't use tower shields) and get 55 PRR. a ranger could put on light armor and a heavy shield and get 25 PRR. Different classes have different strengths like sev said. That's the way the game works.

[Thar]

Evasion builds have to stack Reflex saving throw bonuses, while heavy armor builds will want to stack PRR (and thus MRR) to reach similar levels of mitigation. Both should make sacrifices to gear towards mitigation.

Sev~

Should evasion builds make prestige class sacrifices along with shield sacrifices? I'm totally ok with PRR (and mrr sacrifices) for evasion. The rest of the changes are too much.

[Zzevel]

These changes will make or break a LOT of builds, can we put in now for another LR +20?

[ForgettableNPC]

Talking about 2 different dodge caps. theres the max dodge cap (25 currently) and the dodge cap imposed by armor. hes talking about changing the max cap imposed by armor. Not the max cap. the max cap will still be 25 unless you have a pre or epic enhancement that increases your max dodge cap.

To answer another persons comment a 1st lvl fighter could put on heavy plate and a heavy shield (most lvl 1s don't use tower shields) and get 55 PRR. a ranger could put on light armor and a heavy shield and get 25 PRR. Different classes have different strengths like sev said. That's the way the game works.

That's what I'm saying, the Duelist's Leathers I'm wearing has a 28 Max Dex Bonus, so it doesn't interfere at all with the max Dodge Cap I am able to have. The Duelist's Leathers is a Light Armor, so if the max Dodge Cap for Light Armor becomes reduced to 20, then I will no longer have a 25% Dodge Cap while wearing Light Armor anymore for the Duelist's Leathers if this change goes through.

[Fionivar]

This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

Ahh, I get it. The issue to me seams when you listed the armors and their dodge caps, you were actually referring to their base max DEX bonuses.

Resist Rating Caps, Dodge Caps, and Evasion
In addition, there are new or changed caps on certain scores based on the armor you are wearing.
Dodge Cap for armor and shields
Robes or Outfit: 25%
Light Armor: 20%
Medium Armor: 10% and no Evasion feat
Heavy Armor: 5% and no Evasion feat
These cap values can be increased with abilities or enhancements as they can today.

Dodge CAP would stay where it currently is at 25% (barring feats/enhancements). You keep saying "Dodge Cap" when I think you mean "Max Dex Bonus", or maybe some new "Max Dodge Bonus".

[onny]

Would be interesting if they introduced a shield sizer into the game. npc that will size a shield for you. let it go one step in either direction.

[Thar]

This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

A higher cap number is great, but unless there are +15% items, how will you reach it with no enhancements in the tree that give dodge and nothing but twists to stack with it? My characters who are at max cap get a lot of benefits from enhancements.

[ForgettableNPC]

Would be interesting if they introduced a shield sizer into the game. npc that will size a shield for you. let it go one step in either direction.

Depends, how will the job pay?

[ForgettableNPC]

This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

Oh, okay, then I have no problems, then.

[FestusHood]

The DEVS post was referencing a shield. It was even quoted in my post, showing so. Additionally, I already followed up on the stance issue in another post previously. Nice try though.

Yes, you and the dev missed the point of his post. You asked if you were close. I answered. Granted, i hadn't yet read to the point where you acknowledged that.

[bbqzor]

This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

Its very imperative that tower shields also be included in this pass. If you are encouraging/forcing people towards tower shields, and they still limit the dodge as low as they do, there will be problems. Especially with the enhancements setup the way they are. Eg, requiring armor dex increase to buy tower shield dex increase... if armor starts at 5, and is raised to 8 via that enhancement, but that enhancement only takes a 2 pt tower shield to 5, theres a disconnect (and that it costs 9-12 enhancement points to get that 3 more dodge is also out of balance). Please keep this in mind, especially if you have more shield trees coming up.

[Raoull]

This dodge cap is meant to be a bonus, not a nerf. It will replace the base max dex of the armor, but only if it increases that value. We wanted to increase the dodge cap for some of the heavy and medium armors.

Feats and enhancements that increased dodge cap will increase this new dodge cap. If armor has a higher dodge cap than the numbers listed we will use the higher value.

Since this has generated a lot of questions let me bring this up with the team to make sure we have a clear way to explain this. There might be a simpler way to accomplish this by working with the Max Dex of the armor instead of having an alternate straight value.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sev~

Any chance you guys will use this occasion to fix Mithral?

Right now mithral armor is worse than normal armor. It gives PRR like the lighter armor, yet tends to have dodge caps like the heavier one.

Can you reverse that? Mithral plate, such as the Cove armor, should be giving PRR of heavy armor yet the dodge cap of medium armor.... Currently it is horrifically bad, along with all other mithral suits.

If you don't really want to support mithral going forward, can you just remove it from all of the named armors that currently have it and replace it with Superior Nimbleness or the like?

[HatsuharuZ]

Say... I've never seen you around here before today. Could you please tell us your job title and/or what you have worked on in the past in DDO?

[LordTigerDawn]

Dodge in Heavy Armor is currently limited to the maximum dexterity bonus of your armor. This isn't meant to be a nerf, if you happen to have a special heavy armor with higher than a 5% max dodge the new system will use the higher value.

Sev~

I am even more confused now:

Are we talking Max Dex Bonus of Armour is base 5, or character dodge cap is 5. they are two different things. Character dodge cap is not increased by many enhancements (sacred armour mastery for instance), and if the dodge cap is 25% you just have to increase the max dex bonus of your armour to use it.

If it is Character dodge cap is 5, then the number of enhancements like sacred armour mastery are now really useless and they are all over the place.

If we are talking max dex bonus is 5, then really this is not change to how the current game works.

If you take the "maximum" of the max dex bonus and the char dodge cap to be the actual dodge cap then this is still how it works today, but looking at it from a bottom down and not a top down view (like it is current).

If you are just going to retro/or not retro but make the new full plate armours that come out to be base 5 max dex bonus instead of the current 1/2 that is standard, it really is a waste of time to discuss or even implement. Just do it.

[J-mann]

Evasion builds have to stack Reflex saving throw bonuses, while heavy armor builds will want to stack PRR (and thus MRR) to reach similar levels of mitigation. Both should make sacrifices to gear towards mitigation.

Sev~

Except that prr and mrr work vs physical damage and non-evadable magic damage *polar ray to the face*. The two are not even remotely close to the same benefit to investment and under the proposed system Heavy armor and prr are vastly superior to evasion. Raising the cap on dodge for armor makes the benefit vs cost ratio even further bumped towards heavy armor. Remember heavy armor can still put on incorperal and displacement items so the only difference we can talk about is prr and mrr and ac vs evasion and dodge.