Armor and Mitigation Changes

[ForgettableNPC]

Celestial Gives 18 Cap NOW

20 > 18.

Well, an Epic Duelist's Leathers upgraded I think gives over 20 cap, I think.

[LeoLionxxx]

/swings watch back and forth

You did not read anything about any future content. Sev did not spoil any future plans.

/snaps finger

Sev~

Good luck explaining to the boss :P



It seems like the MRR amounts would be too great like this. As well, it doesn't make too much sense that armour would be as effective at absorbing a sword as it is a fireball (in fact you should be cooking in there, but hey, magic).
Perhaps have the PRR flat rates tied to the type of Armour, and MRR tied to the enhancement value - or better yet a function of the 2.

(where n = enhancement value)
Light Armor: 15 PRR, 2n MRR
Medium Armor: 30 PRR, 2n MRR
Heavy Armor: 45 PRR, 3n MRR


Though perhaps for shields it could stay really low.

Light Shield: 5 PRR, 1n MRR
Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 1n MRR
Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 2n MRR

This makes sense because the magic is what gives it the resistance to other magic, so the stronger the spells, the stronger the defense.

As well, items/enhancements that give PRR should not alwase give MRR as well - doesn't quite make sense. Instead, it could happily be another enchantment altogether.

[Severlin]

Dodge Cap for armor and shields

Heavy Armor: 5% and no Evasion feat

This does kill my dex elf in full plate build. I worked hard to get the dodge to 15% on the TWF build, but now it is loosing 10% dodge and gaining 15 PRR and some MRR.

MRR will be helpful, but loosing 10% dodge vs 15 PRR is terrible.

It will be nice to use the greater paladin stances with just heavy plate so that will be nice. Too bad you can use the stance to get bonus to dex, with all the dex enabled attack options today.

Loss of dodge really does hurt.

Dodge in Heavy Armor is currently limited to the maximum dexterity bonus of your armor. This isn't meant to be a nerf, if you happen to have a special heavy armor with higher than a 5% max dodge the new system will use the higher value.

Sev~

[FestusHood]

Its not a PM but let me guess:
1) there is no medium shield, so you must mean light/small shield
2) there are two named small shields in game, chitin shield and weathered targe
3) they are lolz
4) he will have to craft or recraft a new shield, which now offers less prr/doublestrike/deflection etc relative to his current large shield
5) he will lose access to all the other benefits of large shield items, such as wall of wood, dethek runestone, and many others.
6) he will still evade things, meaning no gain on that front
7) he will now in theory take less physical damage assuming the other new mods fit, at the cost of redoing his itemization and losing dps via doublestike, bash, etc

Am I close? Cant believe that even has to be said. Face palm.

No, you're not close. The original statement was as reference to the defender pre's excluding evasion because of the armor required. It actually had nothing to do with the shield.

[Fionivar]

Epic Dualist Leathers ( http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Duelist%27s_Leathers ) Would have a base cap of 20 (18 +2 Mobility), In Swashbucker you would have 26 (1 per core ability) and up to another 6 from Second Skin for a total of 32 (could also swap in Shadow Dancer twist for the same) .

32 was an perfect number as you were expected to have a cap of 25 + 5 Dodge cap from Roll with the Punches and another 2 from the Guild ship buff for a cap of 32. The expected dodge percent on a Swashbuckler (using a buckler) was around 33% give or take some enhacements. So from what I see, you will lose 5% dodge from the new system, but gain some MRR (but you have evasion so eh?)

With the new options, you could only reach these caps in pajamas. Ahh well, I'll try to get my SwashBuckler time in before these changes.

[Severlin]

As well, items/enhancements that give PRR should not alwase give MRR as well - doesn't quite make sense. Instead, it could happily be another enchantment altogether.

These are separate enchantments. Current items will give PRR and MRR in equal amounts, but future items need not do so. There is design space for future loot to offer more of one or another.

Sev~

[bbqzor]

Personally, I would expect heavy shield use to disqualify evasion, but that's an opinion based on a notion that bigger shields would necessary physical mobility... but that's hardly a show-stopper for me either direction.

Thats the logic which stops tower shields (which weigh 50 lbs) from allowing evasion, and always has (I think from game start, but certainly for many years if not).

Adding large shields to that list is very hard because of the other game structures which have built up over the years... from enhancements, to feats, to itemization, pulling them from the list creates a ripple effect of holes. Its less about heavy shield being flavorful, and more like heavy shield is the I-beam holding up a lot of other things. Yanking it now brings the house down, rather than just making sense on its own merits.

Without any intensive reworking of all those other existing structures, this reams a good number of light evasion tank builds completely. It guts them. Thats (one of) the issue(s) with this change package. Glad it makes more sense now, and is one reason I think more people than it seems would be opposed to this, if they had more information on all the variables involved. Devs included. I seriously hope this is heavily revised before it even gets to lama.

[OverlordOfRats]

Dodge Cap for armor and shields

Heavy Armor: 5% and no Evasion feat

This does kill my dex elf in full plate build. I worked hard to get the dodge to 15% on the TWF build, but now it is loosing 10% dodge and gaining 15 PRR and some MRR.

MRR will be helpful, but loosing 10% dodge vs 15 PRR is terrible.

It will be nice to use the greater paladin stances with just heavy plate so that will be nice. Too bad you can use the stance to get bonus to dex, with all the dex enabled attack options today.

Loss of dodge really does hurt.

IF I am understanding it correctly, right now your full plate armor has a capped dodge of 1% that you have raised by 11 points. Under the proposal, your full plate would have a capped dodge of 5% that you could raise by 11 to get to 19%.

[Theolin]

Please tell me why I just spent a few months epic TRing through my divine destinies and Iconic TRing through PDK for the monk I was ultimately building for? I could have gotten to 100 PRR (your proposed max under this new system) without a single past life in unyielding sentinel. Add in the fact that I grinded through 20 Deathwyrm completions for the bracers (literally the only thing I really wanted from the raid). Now I can only achieve the same max PRR that any brand new monk toon could get with 0 past lives at all? I am a little displeased (to put it mildly). Sure I can reinvest a lot of character/item options away from PRR and have a DIFFERENT build, but is that why I spent all that time, no, no it is not. I spent all that time to have a HIGHER PRR THAN SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T DO THEIR EPIC TRs. If you are really going to cap PRR like this, or ac, or anything else you get from investing time into TRing then the benefits from TRing need to be able to break any existing cap. I knew Shadar-ki past lives would not go beyond the dodge cap before I did them, so I am ok with that, because I knew it before the fact. But with the build I was making, I knew that I would not reach the dodge cap already in existence. Was there any forewarning of an impending PRR cap? NO! You NEED to do something about this, I doubt I am the only person who went though all of that trouble to increase my PRR just to have it nerfed out from under me. I already could not get PRR from robes, now they place a hard cap on my possible PRR too? Are you going to change enhancement lines to allow us to extend the cap in the way we can with dodge? I don't mind rebalancing heavily armored characters, let them have their fun too, but there is no need to nerf robed PRR, if we put in the effort to achieve meaningful PRR then let us have it!

That's ok .... I'm about 1/2 way through my laundry list of things to do to hit 200-210 PRR in robes .... thought I would have something no one else would have .... now its total **** compared to just any old toon

[bbqzor]

No, you're not close. The original statement was as reference to the defender pre's excluding evasion because of the armor required. It actually had nothing to do with the shield.

The DEVS post was referencing a shield. It was even quoted in my post, showing so. Additionally, I already followed up on the stance issue in another post previously. Nice try though.

[Thar]

Will MRR stack with absorption items, twists, etc? if so then it's probably too high since you can stack various items now for 50%+33%+28%+24%+22% absorb

maybe the better idea would be to dial back the damage...

[B0ltdrag0n]

Well, an Epic Duelist's Leathers upgraded I think gives over 20 cap, I think.

Again. Do you not know how Dodge Caps currently work? ....

[Severlin]

Epic Dualist Leathers ( http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Duelist%27s_Leathers ) Would have a base cap of 20 (18 +2 Mobility), In Swashbucker you would have 26 (1 per core ability) and up to another 6 from Second Skin for a total of 32 (could also swap in Shadow Dancer twist for the same) .

32 was an perfect number as you were expected to have a cap of 25 + 5 Dodge cap from Roll with the Punches and another 2 from the Guild ship buff for a cap of 32.

With the new options, you could only reach these caps in pajamas. Ahh well, I'll try to get my SwashBuckler time in before these changes.

The intention is that the listed dodge caps are for base armor, before any feats or enhancements that increase the cap are applied.

Sev~

[jakeelala]

I'd rather see the MRR implemented as magical absorption, only because the concept of MRR feels clunky to me. Most lootgen armors and shields are polluted with the essentially worthless energy absorption now; how about just remove those and make it a simple magical absorption? Leave specific energy absorption to greensteel, fire shield and draconic twists.



I'm concerned about the PRR cap being way too high for robe wearers. I'd like to see a "maxed" evasion+robe character's dodge + PRR net effect be equivalent to a "maxed" heavy armor character's dodge + PRR. On first reading, it seems to me that the 100 PRR + 25% dodge is way better than uncapped PRR + 5% dodge the heavy armor can attain. Of course factor in the ability of the heavy armor wearer to increase his dodge cap. Still, a PRR cap of 50 for robes, 75 for light armor, 150 for medium and uncapped for heavy sounds better to me.

Agreed.

Remember Devs: PRR from Armor and Items is supposed to represent resistance to physical damage. So Heavy armor should massively excel at that. It should excel at that AS MUCH as Evasion excels at dodging things that can be evaded. But you should have to pick one or the other. Don't just allow Evaders to block physical damage with PRR, and don't just allow Heavy Tanks to ignore Evadable damage. Either make Evaders put on heavy armor for heavy physical damage fights, and/or make Heavy Tanks take that armor off when there's lots of magic flying around.

[Thar]

I think this is the intent. Not to have evasion tanks that can deal with all forms of damage the game can throw out by simply ignoring it. Ignore reflex by evasion, or physical damage by PRR and tank stats. Not ignore both.

Evastion tanks today sacrfice large amounts of PRR and a bit of AC to gain evasion (not to mention two levels in another class), capstone, etc. They don't ignore physical damage at all, just better at reflex save spell damage.

[ForgettableNPC]

Again. Do you not know how Dodge Caps currently work? ....

Isn't it based on the Armor's Max Dex Bonus?

[Scraap]

Isn't it based on the Armor's Max Dex Bonus?

Armor and shields combined MDB (whichever is lower) + feats +PRE +ED + itemization.

[onny]

The intention is that the listed dodge caps are for base armor, before any feats or enhancements that increase the cap are applied.

Sev~

I think what sev is saying is now your fullplate with a max dex of 1 will have a max dodge bonus of 5.

Your halfplate with a max dex of 2 will have a max dodge bonus of 5.

Your uber fullplate of excelling mobility with a max dex of 7 with have a max dodge bonus of 7.

Same with the other teirs. All armor will have a base amount of dodge bonus. instead of dodge bonus based off max dex. BUT if the max dex is higher then the base dodge bonus it will increase it accordingly.

And anything that would currently push the dodge bonus above the base max dodge bonus for the armor type will also push your max dodge bonus up.

So its all win. those with lower dex bonuses can benefit from more dodge. and those with higher can still go as high as the sky they like.

[Aerinsma]

I am a bit concerned about non-evasion light and no armor builds, but I personally always build for evasion. I do want to point out that a first level character can get +1 plate mail, but a ranger won't have evasion until ninth level. Evasion characters also have to invest a lot of points and items to get their evasion high enough to be effective. Again characters wearing heavy armor and carrying shields would get these advantages automatically.

[Fionivar]

The intention is that the listed dodge caps are for base armor, before any feats or enhancements that increase the cap are applied.

Sev~

I guess there is where I'm a bit confused. In the current system, you have a Dodge Cap of 25% or Max Dex, whichever is lower. From what I read it seemed like your Dodge Cap would be 20% if you were wearing light armor and in essence lose 5% dodge over the current system if you had the Max Dex enhancements that took your armor to 25+ Max Dex and the exact same Dodge Cap increasing feats (there are none that I know of) and Enhancements (very few of those).