Armor and Mitigation Changes

[ForgettableNPC]

Not sure if making Dodge Cap for Light Armor at 20 might be a good idea, with the Swashbucklers coming out and all.

Since Swashbucklers rely on dodging blows while fighting instead of enduring the damage, a lower Dodge Cap would mean less dodging, meaning getting hit more frequently and that much closer to dying.

Maybe we could have certain classes or Enhancement Trees have a greater Dodge Cap than others as they level up, like Rogues, or Rangers, or Swashbucklers.

That's just my two cents on that matter.

On another note, regarding MRR, where would Orbs fit into that equation? I think they should give more MRR than PRR (if any) considering they're magic-oriented rather than physical.

[bbqzor]

I'm seeing a lot of resistance in the comments thus far to the idea of eliminating Evasion for the heavily armored toons.

There is no evasion in heavy armor. There hasnt been for many years, though there was at the very start of DDO (which was different than pnp, no evasion in heavy armor there either).

Frankly, I don't care how it's been done that way for 'THE WHOLE EXISTENCE OF DDO': it just doesn't make any logical sense that anybody wearing 50 lbs. of armor and carrying a large shield would be able to evade anything. You shouldn't be able to have the best of both worlds, IMHO.

They dont have the best of both worlds. They can evade in light armor, with a heavy shield. Heavy shields weigh 15 lbs. The situation you describe has not existed for years. Light shields weigh 6 lbs for reference. I really doubt 9 lbs is a meaningful difference for "real world" considerations...

A 5% dodge cap (i.e., 5% evasion chance) for the full tin cans makes reasonable sense.

This part is fine, and wholly unrelated to the use of evasion or not. Evasion does not mean what you think it means, if youre using it to describe the "dodge" mechanic. "Evasion" is a specific ability with a specific game use, and it is limited by armor and shield type. Adding shield types to the limiting list is what everyone is discussing, and its a nerf. A foolish one.

Usually I try not to quote other players much, but as you referenced my post with something which seems to confuse game terminology, I felt it would be helpful. Both to point out that specific terms are being used here rather than generic words, and those terms have game applications. And to point out that even people who may seem to be agreeing with the changes, are potentially saying the same thing as those who dont.

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You forgot the complete stat point spread retool from loosing the hipoint amp you can use for giving yourself some breathing room in that regard if you're not trying to play a 2 stat wonder.

Ah yes my mistake. Pulling the stance benefits off light armor will indeed screw evasion tanks far more than a change to light shields. That is just brutal. This will kill evasion takes completely then, at least the kind made from paladin/fighter bases using light armor and shields.

With no itemization support, lessened feat support, and zero enhancement support, theyre done. Thats foolish as well. Subtle but important catch. Sigh.

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Wouldn't be the 1st time But then could you re-teach me how it DOES work then? I was under the impression that we currently have a 25% dodge cap and the new system imposes 20/15/10/5 caps on the heavier armors. I tried re-reading what I thought was the relevant info on wiki, but I'm not seeing it.

Right now its 25%, *or the max dex bonus of your armor*. So for most heavy armors, thats 1% cap. I read this as raising it to 5%, from the context.

But he didnt state if it actually replaces the max dex bonus, or just caps how much you can improve it. So either it starts at 5% instead of 1%, and you can raise it. Or it starts at 1%, and can be raised but no further than 5%. Hoping its the former. Clarification would be good.

..........

We will definitely need to address the lack of good small shields in future content. I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

LOL man this dev... yes, the lack of good small shields has been a pillar of community discussion, with demand for good small shields reaching an all time high.... after the potential to be forced into using them by a backwards change aimed at eliminating s/b evasion tanks. Im done. You have not once commented on the potential overbalance this brings, comments made not just by me but by many long time posters who play upper end. Just "oh we want heavy armor to be good" ok well, mission accomplished. To the detriment of the entire rest of the game.

That you would seriously spend time trying to backwards itemize small shields to support an unnecessary and overly complicated change no one asked for is beyond me. My fullplate shouldnt auto block fireball. And certainly not to the extent it marginalizes evasion almost completely. And if you think thats even remotely a good way to spend your time, I mourn for the game.

[onny]

I think people see the top end 550 MRR/PRR providing 78% damage reduction and saying wow that's gonna kill everyone elses builds. But how easy will it be to hit 275 PRR. most classes that focus it now don't get much above 120 or so unless they have massive investments in past lives and gear min maxing and epic twists of fate. your average tank will have 180 PRR/MRR most likely and be able to survive taking 30-40% damage from caster attacks and melee. Which is about right. Right now evasion classes can do a lot of content with 0 risk by maxing damage avoidance and having self healing. As evidenced by who is playing EE right now. I think the changes are good. Those with massive investments will get really good at not dying (just like evasion classes). And more people will be able to play in end content since they don't die instantly to nukes. As for casters in robes without any PRR MRR or evasion. they have displacement and the same access to dodge as any evasion class. so should be decent at avoiding hits. as far as spells go they don't really have a way to avoid. but they also put out the best dps in the game via instant kills and massive spell damage. that's their tradeoff. Be in the back line protected by your tanks and evasion types instead of soloing everything. Tanks are supposed to be tanks, not bbq broilers. The most iconic image in D&D is the knight with shield raised deflecting a dragons breath!

[Krelar]

I know we plan to have small shields and bucklers in the loot for the epic version of Orchard which would be released at the same time as these changes.

Sev~

Can you tell of if this is (tentatively) planned for the end of this year or sometime next year?

[B0ltdrag0n]

Not sure if making Dodge Cap for Light Armor at 20 might be a good idea, with the Swashbucklers coming out and all.

Since Swashbucklers rely on dodging blows while fighting instead of enduring the damage, a lower Dodge Cap would mean less dodging, meaning getting hit more frequently and that much closer to dying.
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Celestial Gives 18 Cap NOW

20 > 18.

[Thar]

The Dodge cap went up. I think I am missing which nerf you are talking about?

Sev~

The dodge cap went up but most light armor evasion characters probably had enhancements or twists to reach the end cap of 25. We lose access to defender which subtracts another 3 to the armor, we lose 50% shield and Armor AC, +3 ac, saves, +6 con, +20% ac, 25 prr, etc etc. What enhancement line do you expect evasion tanks to use? We lose access to heavy shields reducing ac and effects (increasing grind for some replacement that is suitable not to mention fustrating for those that grind for current shields in raids or crafting).

What do we gain for losing all this? a little dodge and a new bank toon.

Seriously you can't be putting restrictions on items this late in the game. ADD to what exists, don't take away. Not only for this but for any change.

[Tilomere]

My experience over 4 epic lives as a non-evasive druid is telling me the MRR absorbtion needs to double. Fire shield which is better was not enough, I needed shield deflection active and block energy past lives on a character with massive self healing.

I won't need the block energy past lives after this change on my druid, which will be a large buff. Other shield wearers that lose evasion due to this are going to get literally hosed by fire since they don't have as good of interactions with shield deflection/block energy or massive self healing.

[alancarp]

There is no evasion in heavy armor. There hasnt been for many years, ... They dont have the best of both worlds. They can evade in light armor, with a heavy shield. Heavy shields weigh 15 lbs. The situation you describe has not existed for years. Light shields weigh 6 lbs for reference. I really doubt 9 lbs is a meaningful difference for "real world" considerations...

Well, that's good: I was summarizing what seemed to be multiple complaints from earlier in the thread that seemed to imply the opposite. If I misread or misunderstood those comments, then that's fine - it's a situation that I didn't believe should prevail. And yes, I recognize evasion/dodge as separate mechanics - I'll plead guilty to glibness in equating them for purposes of trying to simplify the post.

Personally, I would expect heavy shield use to disqualify evasion, but that's an opinion based on a notion that bigger shields would necessary physical mobility... but that's hardly a show-stopper for me either direction.

[Raiderone]

Well, yes and no. Or have you forgotten that there exist Light/Medium armor wearing DPS classes like Barbs and Rangers? Is it your intention to completely exclude these from EE content now? It was bad for melees before, but this feels like it will be even MORE exclusionary.

Whatever changes are made, they shouldn't be made to decrease(nerf) another play style or destroying builds. as some have pointed out nothing should be just given.
It's great that they want to change PRR and add MRR. But don't make it just based on a type of armor worn ie I wear Heavy Armor, now I'm great.
It needs to be earned thru accomplishment and sometimes sacrifice. Every build makes a sacrifice, example less strength maybe more dex and wisdom (like Min Maxing or Balanced).

Look at evasion, evasion isnt good without great reflex saves. I'd make PRR influenced by strength and constitution.

[Severlin]

/swings watch back and forth

You did not read anything about any future content. Sev did not spoil any future plans.

/snaps finger

Sev~

[CeltEireson]

Right now its 25%, *or the max dex bonus of your armor*. So for most heavy armors, thats 1% cap. I read this as raising it to 5%, from the context.

But he didnt state if it actually replaces the max dex bonus, or just caps how much you can improve it. So either it starts at 5% instead of 1%, and you can raise it. Or it starts at 1%, and can be raised but no further than 5%. Hoping its the former. Clarification would be good.

Im taking it to mean the 'max dex bonus of your armour' bit is now gone and its a straight 25/20/10/5 but those can be increase with appropriate feats/enhancements etc as they are now. Don't think there are too many light armours (if any) where the base max dex bonus is 20 (think the highest is about 18 or 19). So assuming that's the case youll maybe gain a few points of max dodge if you're a light armour user.

If this is the case there's another somewhat odd thing form this in that for each armour type there are currently two levels - one with slightly lower ac but higher max dex bonus, and the other with higher ac but lower max dex bonus. If theyre making all armours of a certain type (heavy etc) have the same max dex bonus then theyre effectively penalising one set of armour and boosting the other. So for medium armours for example celestial scalemail has max dex bonus of 12 but equivalent breastplate has only 7 - under new system they'd both have 10, for planeforged half plate its 6 MDB and equivalent full plate its 1 MDB but under new system would be 5 for both.

Seems somewhat odd, and yes needs clarification.

[Severlin]

In response to Dodge cap: our plan is that the system will use the higher value if your armor happens to be one of the few with a higher current Dodge cap.

Sev~

[LordTigerDawn]

Dodge Cap for armor and shields

Heavy Armor: 5% and no Evasion feat

This does kill my dex elf in full plate build. I worked hard to get the dodge to 15% on the TWF build, but now it is loosing 10% dodge and gaining 15 PRR and some MRR.

MRR will be helpful, but loosing 10% dodge vs 15 PRR is terrible.

It will be nice to use the greater paladin stances with just heavy plate so that will be nice. Too bad you can use the stance to get bonus to dex, with all the dex enabled attack options today.

Loss of dodge really does hurt.

[Thar]

Do you realize this leak is bigger news than anything else you posted?

oh i don't even want to think about epic inferno... or epic abbott.. hate those quests...

[OverlordOfRats]

Im taking it to mean the 'max dex bonus of your armour' bit is now gone and its a straight 25/20/10/5 but those can be increase with appropriate feats/enhancements etc as they are now. Don't think there are too many light armours (if any) where the base max dex bonus is 20 (think the highest is about 18 or 19). So assuming that's the case youll maybe gain a few points of max dodge if you're a light armour user.

If this is the case there's another somewhat odd thing form this in that for each armour type there are currently two levels - one with slightly lower ac but higher max dex bonus, and the other with higher ac but lower max dex bonus. If theyre making all armours of a certain type (heavy etc) have the same max dex bonus then theyre effectively penalising one set of armour and boosting the other. So for medium armours for example celestial scalemail has max dex bonus of 12 but equivalent breastplate has only 7 - under new system they'd both have 10, for planeforged half plate its 6 MDB and equivalent full plate its 1 MDB but under new system would be 5 for both.

Seems somewhat odd, and yes needs clarification.

That's a question I have also.

Will leather and chain be the same, just with different looks. Will they keep the AC, MAX DEX, Armor Check penalty, and spell failure different, but both have the same dodge cap of 20?

[alancarp]

/swings watch back and forth ... You did not read anything about any future content. Sev did not spoil any future plans. ... /snaps finger Sev~

[Tilomere]

Evastion tanks won't get the AC needed from Light armor and light shields with no enhancement line AC boosts. you will kill that mode of play.

I think this is the intent. Not to have evasion tanks that can deal with all forms of damage the game can throw out by simply ignoring it. Ignore reflex by evasion, or physical damage by PRR and tank stats. Not ignore both.

[L2Marshall]

Please tell me why I just spent a few months epic TRing through my divine destinies and Iconic TRing through PDK for the monk I was ultimately building for? I could have gotten to 100 PRR (your proposed max under this new system) without a single past life in unyielding sentinel. Add in the fact that I grinded through 20 Deathwyrm completions for the bracers (literally the only thing I really wanted from the raid). Now I can only achieve the same max PRR that any brand new monk toon could get with 0 past lives at all? I am a little displeased (to put it mildly). Sure I can reinvest a lot of character/item options away from PRR and have a DIFFERENT build, but is that why I spent all that time, no, no it is not. I spent all that time to have a HIGHER PRR THAN SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T DO THEIR EPIC TRs. If you are really going to cap PRR like this, or ac, or anything else you get from investing time into TRing then the benefits from TRing need to be able to break any existing cap. I knew Shadar-ki past lives would not go beyond the dodge cap before I did them, so I am ok with that, because I knew it before the fact. But with the build I was making, I knew that I would not reach the dodge cap already in existence. Was there any forewarning of an impending PRR cap? NO! You NEED to do something about this, I doubt I am the only person who went though all of that trouble to increase my PRR just to have it nerfed out from under me. I already could not get PRR from robes, now they place a hard cap on my possible PRR too? Are you going to change enhancement lines to allow us to extend the cap in the way we can with dodge? I don't mind rebalancing heavily armored characters, let them have their fun too, but there is no need to nerf robed PRR, if we put in the effort to achieve meaningful PRR then let us have it!

[Enoach]

As someone that enjoys the S&B style on my paladin I applaud the "rebalance of To-Hit" on Epic Mobs, mainly because I truly feel that is one of the biggest contributing factors of why AC does not scale to the Epic Elite levels.

Now I like the PRR changes especially with the idea that heavier armor provides more physical damage reduction.

However, the MRR I'm really not sure about. Why should my shield/armor provide me with resistance to spell damage? Would it not be better to leave Evasion for being superior vs Reflex save damage and let Heavy Armor be superior to Physical damage.

I'm fine with adding to the Shield mastery feats a percent mitigation from splash type damage effects, with a bonus if actively blocking (Thus removing Shield Deflection)

However, I can't help but think that maybe the system could be fixed using the d20 Touch AC, and implementing the loss of Dexterity bonus/Dodge bonus based on situations that would prevent them such as holds. The other aspect would be making SR meaningful for the non-damage spells by not translating a CR54 as 54 Levels of Caster but as 20 Caster with a bonus based on so many CR's above what is considered a Level 20 caster.

As for Shield use in game, I would like to see more flexibility in using shields offensively such as implementing "Charge type" abilities as well as stun chances. I would also like to see Tower Shields actually display as Tower Shields (Practically full body length) as well as add an area of protection behind them that extends beyond the Shield holder.

[EllisDee37]

I'd rather see the MRR implemented as magical absorption, only because the concept of MRR feels clunky to me. Most lootgen armors and shields are polluted with the essentially worthless energy absorption now; how about just remove those and make it a simple magical absorption? Leave specific energy absorption to greensteel, fire shield and draconic twists.



I'm concerned about the PRR cap being way too high for robe wearers. I'd like to see a "maxed" evasion+robe character's dodge + PRR net effect be equivalent to a "maxed" heavy armor character's dodge + PRR. On first reading, it seems to me that the 100 PRR + 25% dodge is way better than uncapped PRR + 5% dodge the heavy armor can attain. Of course factor in the ability of the heavy armor wearer to increase his dodge cap. Still, a PRR cap of 50 for robes, 75 for light armor, 150 for medium and uncapped for heavy sounds better to me.