Armor and Mitigation Changes

[Tilomere]

Evasion: You move evasively, gaining 3% dodge and maximum dodge rating, and on a successful reflex save for half damage you avoid all damage. However, your total MRR is reduced by 2/3.

[Delacroix21]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.


Sev~

Seriously Sev, why did you do this? Just because a few people who couldn't do some basic math and realize that these caps were actually a buff whined at you?


You intended this as a buff, it very much was a buff (with medium armor getting a HUGE boost) and yes, quite a few people couldn't seem to figure that out. Especially since you repeatedly stated that these numbers could be increased with ed or enhancements.



So you are going to punish the rest of us with half a brain (the minimum requirement to see the change as a BUFF not a nerf) by removing this dodge cap change? Please bring it back!





A tiny bit of math for my less brainy who couldn't figure this out:
No heavy armor in ddo has a base max dex bonus of 5, so 5% dodge for heavy armor was a buff
No medium armor in ddo has a max dex bonus of 10, no by a HUGE margin! 10% dodge was a buff
No light armor in ddo has a max dex bonus over 19, so 20% dodge was a 1% buff


Sev stated REPEATEDLY that these caps were increase able by things that increase max dex bonus. If you were able to READ his post about the caps, i am sure you could have read that!

[mezzorco]

Seriously Sev, why did you do this? Just because a few people who couldn't do some basic math and realize that these caps were actually a buff whined at you?


You intended this as a buff, it very much was a buff (with medium armor getting a HUGE boost) and yes, quite a few people couldn't seem to figure that out. Especially since you repeatedly stated that these numbers could be increased with ed or enhancements.



So you are going to punish the rest of us with half a brain (the minimum requirement to see the change as a BUFF not a nerf) by removing this dodge cap change? Please bring it back!





A tiny bit of math for my less brainy who couldn't figure this out:
No heavy armor in ddo has a base max dex bonus of 5, so 5% dodge for heavy armor was a buff
No medium armor in ddo has a max dex bonus of 10, no by a HUGE margin! 10% dodge was a buff
No light armor in ddo has a max dex bonus over 19, so 20% dodge was a 1% buff


Sev stated REPEATEDLY that these caps were increase able by things that increase max dex bonus. If you were able to READ his post about the caps, i am sure you could have read that!

I have to agree. Just bring it back, every player will (eventually) understand that this is a good thing.

"Because this is the buff DDO deserves, but not the one it understands right now." (cit. the dark severlin)

[nibel]

All this "evasion nerf" discussion could be avoided if they had a basic magic item added to the game. This would stop the "two-level dip for evasion" discussion from even starting.

People don't multi into rogue/monk ONLY for evasion. Evasion is a nice benefit, but not the main reason why you splash. If evasion alone was that powerful, you would see more people running around in Primal Avatar.

[Qhualor]

(Edited based on player feedback.)

~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.


Sev~

much rather the focus be on SD and DOS. those are the 2 tank trees and now we have Swashbuckler that is intended to be a dps shield user. adding 2 more trees that make tank builds more survivable in high level content and still put out high dps will just make players abandon SD and DOS. we really don't need 5 tank trees plus the many other monk/pally whatever splash builds already out there that are able to both tank and deal high damage. look at how we handle tank jobs and make adjustments with how you guys develop raids/quests. if there is going to be an actual tank, its going to be one with evasion or a self sufficient build that can kite.

the changes in armor, PRR, dodge and adding MRR, which I think personally is the wrong way to go for a fix, will certainly help SD and DOS or any other tank build, but adding magically enchanted gear/armor/shield is a better direction to go. just like in PnP, you can find some cool magical items that can shield you from a dragons fire/cold breath or absorb elements cast at you trapping it. whatever, but creativity in that respect would make things more fun, interesting and I would think easier than messing around with damage mitigation coding for the nteenth time and developing new trees for a "fix".

[thegreatneil]

People don't multi into rogue/monk ONLY for evasion. Evasion is a nice benefit, but not the main reason why you splash. If evasion alone was that powerful, you would see more people running around in Primal Avatar.

I TRed into my latest build with 2 rogue JUST for evasion, not the skills not the trapping, I am no even using the enhancements.

Its Simply for evasion.

[Delacroix21]

This thread has been going on for a while, and I don't think I saw anything about Warforged. When the AC/PRR change came through, there was a bunch of people saying that the end of the Melee Warforged was over, because the Body Feats didn't seem to get as good of treatment as the actual armor in the game. It would be nice to make sure that WF Adamantine armor was given PRR and MRR as Heavy Armor, and the Mithral Body feat given Medium armor levels of protection (while still being considered light armor, like other Mithral things).

Maybe this update might also be a good time to renew the discussion of giving Warforged their body feat as a free selectable feat?

This!


In fact the body feats should be slightly stronger then regular armor as they cost a feat. On live adamantine body gives less prr then ANY heavy armor, despite costing a feat. Also it is very hard for wf druids, as they can use either due to the oath. Allow these armors with the oath, wf composite plating allready has metal in it anyway!

[Silverleafeon]

Seriously Sev, why did you do this? Just because a few people who couldn't do some basic math and realize that these caps were actually a buff whined at you?


You intended this as a buff, it very much was a buff (with medium armor getting a HUGE boost) and yes, quite a few people couldn't seem to figure that out. Especially since you repeatedly stated that these numbers could be increased with ed or enhancements.



So you are going to punish the rest of us with half a brain (the minimum requirement to see the change as a BUFF not a nerf) by removing this dodge cap change? Please bring it back!





A tiny bit of math for my less brainy who couldn't figure this out:
No heavy armor in ddo has a base max dex bonus of 5, so 5% dodge for heavy armor was a buff
No medium armor in ddo has a max dex bonus of 10, no by a HUGE margin! 10% dodge was a buff
No light armor in ddo has a max dex bonus over 19, so 20% dodge was a 1% buff


Sev stated REPEATEDLY that these caps were increase able by things that increase max dex bonus. If you were able to READ his post about the caps, i am sure you could have read that!

+1

[Silverleafeon]

This thread has been going on for a while, and I don't think I saw anything about Warforged. When the AC/PRR change came through, there was a bunch of people saying that the end of the Melee Warforged was over, because the Body Feats didn't seem to get as good of treatment as the actual armor in the game. It would be nice to make sure that WF Adamantine armor was given PRR and MRR as Heavy Armor, and the Mithral Body feat given Medium armor levels of protection (while still being considered light armor, like other Mithral things).

Maybe this update might also be a good time to renew the discussion of giving Warforged their body feat as a free selectable feat?

I did bring up docents when this first came out,
and they are being considered.

Hopefully we will find good numbers when we see them.

[Silverleafeon]

I TRed into my latest build with 2 rogue JUST for evasion, not the skills not the trapping, I am no even using the enhancements.

Its Simply for evasion.

Aye, we need better capstones...

[Krelar]

Aye, we need better capstones...

This ^

Back when my paladin was still pure I didn't even bother taking either of the capstones. They are that bad.

The capstones should be good enough that a pure character will always want to take them and other characters will at least think twice about whether they want to stay pure or not.

[IronClan]

If only there was this collective of people, a GROUP of them FOCUSED on the changes who could give meaningful impact and thoughts on the subject. Alas we now live in a LAND where we can do naught but MOURN anymore.

This is what the PC does now, and none of us even blinked at that Dodge cap buff, IMO they may have dropped that change A) because they internally want to anyway or B) its minor and they look more responsive to feedback when they give into something now and again. Or maybe both who knows...

I think people need to be reminded some times that Sev and Varg etc. have other people around them throwing their own 2c in some of those people are their bosses, some of them are friends, some are the annoying guy in the next cubicle who mumbles a lot always brings up oddball nit picks and is unnaturally attached to his red stapler.

Challenging the unbuffing of dodge cap has been brought back up on the PC side FWIW. we'll see what happens.

[Delacroix21]

This is what the PC does now

Challenging the unbuffing of dodge cap has been brought back up on the PC side FWIW. we'll see what happens.

Fight the good fight! Bring this buffed dodge cap back! Sev just gave into the whiners who don't understand math.


Also make sure the PC takes WF body feats into discussion. They have been so bad for so long that none take them, and costing a feat is rough. Maybe let WF pick a plating at level 1 for free?

[lyrecono]

sev?

How about finding a way to add heavy and tower shields to single weapon fighting to help tanks to hold agro?
Maybe as an enhancement in the 2 defender tree's?
This would really help in the agro management department.

[Delacroix21]

This ^

Back when my paladin was still pure I didn't even bother taking either of the capstones. They are that bad.

The capstones should be good enough that a pure character will always want to take them and other characters will at least think twice about whether they want to stay pure or not.

Bump the stat bonuses to +4 and here is something wild: taking a capstone (have to be pure to do so) gives you an extra 10 enhancement points! Now we are talking.

[mezzorco]

taking a capstone (have to be pure to do so) gives you an extra 10 enhancement points! Now we are talking.

It could be a nice idea. Being pure means you can't exploit two classes with those points.

On the other hand, though, you can still take two capstones from two trees of your class, and this clearly isn't intended (plus this way you would get another 10 bonus points).

It's been asked many times to devs to add points with epic levels or capstones, and I think they're reluctant for a reason. This would unbalance current system.

[lyrecono]

Bump the stat bonuses to +4 and here is something wild: taking a capstone (have to be pure to do so) gives you an extra 10 enhancement points! Now we are talking.

you assume the fighter/paladin tree have enhancements worth taking over a 2 lv splash to begin with.
I highly doubt this would help pure fighters or paladins. What about pure casters? they're already OP compared to fighter/paladin. They have few reasons to multi class to begin with, adding 10 enhancement point would be very unbalanced.

[EllisDee37]

I've long felt that the best way to buff pure classes in the new enhancement system is to allow them (at level 20+ only, of course, when they have officially become "pure") to take as many tier 5s from all their trees as they can afford.

Plus give all the capstones (and even level ML18 cores) a serious boost, of course.

[Seikojin]

Make the shield line exclusive like the single weapon fighting line if you want.


Cannot take TWF or THF or SWF if you take Shield Master/Improved/Greater

I think SWF should be acquirable for S&B.

[Bridge_Dweller]

I think SWF should be acquirable for S&B.

or an actual S&B line of feats.