Armor and Mitigation Changes

[Hilltrot]

Make PRR linear instead of diminishing returns.

Do you mean linear like 1/(2^(PRR/150)) which may work, or the really bad idea of linear which will be broken the second it comes out.

[Hilltrot]

The current suggested changes are like saying "If you want to tank, you can't have Evasion. Also, your splashes/gear are for naught now."

There are tanks??

THERE ARE TANKS?!

I've never seen a tank in DDO since . . . since . . . since . . .

[nibel]

Do you mean linear like 1/(2^(PRR/150)) which may work, or the really bad idea of linear which will be broken the second it comes out.

The really bad idea of linear.

It is not that bad if you go into design thinking on a hard cap, and not planning on advance "how" reach that cap. Dodge is a good example about how it went wrong: You started with a hard cap of 25, and already had plenty of ways to max it out off the bat (three classes with 6% innate, a feat line that gives up to 9%, 10% on gear, plenty on enhancements and EDs, etc).

In my example, Heavy armor + Tower Shield would start out (from level 1) with 45 PRR, with a hard cap of 80. 45% damage reduction would distinguish heavy armor users from robe wearers right from the start. This is something that is missing with Dodge right now: You don't really get good "dodge" before you reach level 15+. In some cases, it only starts to shine at epics.

To counter the early access to a significant number, I would NOT make current Sheltering plus feats plus enhancements cover all those 35 missing PRR. It would open the way for intriguing class/enhancement combinations, and future gear design. Same thing would be true for MRR: Just because an orb-wielding heavy armor cleric would have a MRR cap of 90, this would not mean I would set everything so that you have an easy path to that cap.

But all of that is null anyway, since we got this reply:

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

This mean that my dream of linear progression is dead.

Myself, I don't like logarithmic progression because eventually you have a nice stopping point on PRR where you sacrifices too much for a small benefit. On current game, this value is around 60 PRR, where you get easy 30% damage reduction. Without some epic/PDK past lifes, or some earth stance combinations, getting over this in a robe/light armor wearer is a bit hard. And the only reason to actively go over 60 is if you can reach and surpass it with low-hanging fruits.

[BOgre]

~ PRR and MRR have a smooth mathematical curve for future growth. We can add to the power of armor to support future growth of the game with new gear. Moving to a system that offers a hard percentage of mitigation doesn't support the gear growth of the game very well.

Is that you anticipating, or were you specifically given that mandate? Because we were told level 30 was it. Finito. Cap. Are you telling us that Turbine plans to reneg on that and is already designing past 30?

[Schwarzie]

Is that you anticipating, or were you specifically given that mandate? Because we were told level 30 was it. Finito. Cap. Are you telling us that Turbine plans to reneg on that and is already designing past 30?

It just means that thre will never be an end to Powercreep. Some of it is simply necessary to keep the game interesting. Players expect some growth with each new Adventurepack.

[Uska]

Sounds like a good start

[SilkofDrasnia]

Late to the party I am and at a cursory glance I like the changes, they seem a step in the right direction. That said will need to put decent buckler and light shields in the game and mithril needs fixing.

Looking at this:

Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.0

Why make heavy and tower both 2.0 it doesn't really compute to me. A tower shield is a huge arse "tower" like shield seems to me it should have a bit more than a simple "heavy" shield.

Maybe:
Buckler: 1.0
Light: 1.5
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.5

I mean look:

Hiding behind a heavy shield

Although hes blocking with a heavy shield he's still going to get some splash damage, smaller shield more splash damage which is also why there should be a difference tween bucklers and light shields as well.

Hiding behind a typical Tower shield

Should provide more PRR and MRR simply because of the increased cover.

I mean you make the distinction here:

Shields will give additional PRR and, if enchanted, MRR.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: 5 PRR, 5 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if shield has enchantments.

So you also need to make the distinction when it comes to Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.

[bennyson]

When are these "possible" changes plus the other "possible" changes to Paladins coming in which update?

U23?

U24?

Or is it a secret?

Just curious.

[Silverleafeon]

Yes, the class needs love, but the honest truth of why the paladins don't do decent damage
is the combat feat lineup that they are offered:


Let us compare:

Two Weapon Fighting
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Dexterity 15





Description

Two Weapon Fighting reduces the to-hit penalty when using two weapons at the same time. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off-hand lessens by 6, so it becomes -4 (main hand) / -4 (off-hand) (instead of -6/-10 without this feat).

If the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties both decrease by another 2 points, down to -2/-2 (instead of -4/-8 without this feat). For wielders of non-light weapons, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting is recommended to bring their attack penalty down to -2/-2.

After Update 5, an off-hand attack would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. The default chance to proc an off-hand attack is 20%.

Two Weapon Fighting increases the chance to proc an off-hand attack by 20%, bringing the total chance to 40%. Having more TWF feats increases the percentage chance of proccing an off-hand attack by 20% per feat, to a max of 80% with Greater Two Weapon Fighting. The first and fourth steps of the Tempest enhancements core abilities can increase the chance by 10% each, as can the Deft Strikes and Meditation of War (in Wind Stance) Shintao enhancements. However, there's no benefit of having more than a 100% off-hand strike chance.

This feat also works for unarmed Monks, and has the same effect but not for Druids in Wolf or Bear form.

Two Handed Fighting
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Strength 15+





Description

Increases the damage of glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon by 10% (from a base of 20% normal weapon damage). Also grants a 3% chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows.

Special: As of Update 5 This feat will also work with glancing blows caused by Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes when wielded as a single weapon or weapon and shield combination.

Related Feats:
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Greater Two Handed Fighting

Shield Mastery
Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency (General)





Description

You are skilled with the use of a shield, and your physical resistance is increased by 3 when using a buckler or small shield, 5 when using a large shield, or 10 when using a tower shield. You gain 3% doublestrike while using a shield.

Related Feats:
Improved Shield Mastery

Power Attack
Cooldown: 6 seconds
Usage: Active, Toggled Stance
Prerequisite: Strength 13+





Description

This feat exchanges part of your attack bonus for extra melee damage. It reduces your hit bonus by 5, or your Base Attack Bonus, whichever is lower. Then your successful attacks will have their damage increased by the same amount. Two-handed weapons get twice that damage bonus. (Unarmed strikes count as one-handed.) Typically, this means one-handed weapons get +5 and two-handed get +10 to damage.

This feat is a stance. It may be toggled on and left active indefinitely. When deactivated, there is a 10 second cooldown before it can be used again.

Combat Expertise
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Usage: Active, Toggled Stance
Prerequisite: Intelligence 13





Description

Defensive Combat Stance: While using Combat Expertise mode, you suffer -5 to your attack rolls but gain +10% feat bonus to Armor Class. Spells have three times their normal cooldown when this mode is active. Combat Expertise dispels and wards against all Rage effects.

(Note: The in-game description incorrectly implies that the to-hit and AC modifiers are limited by your Base Attack Bonus, and the AC bonus type is unspecified.)




Note

Spell like abilities are not subjected to the increased cooldown

This feat does not replace the basic Defensive Fighting stance granted automatically to all characters with a BAB of at least +1. However, it is generally better than Defensive Fighting, and only one stance can be active at a time.
A Fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A Monk may select this feat as one of his martial arts feats.

So simply put, Shield mastery is granting +3% bonus damage.
Two weapon fighting is granting +20% bonus damage.
Two handed fighting is granting +10% bonus damage.

Can one see the large difference building already?
Yes, I know they might miss and their is AC concerns, but...
Add power attacks bonus to damage which is significant, and...

Can you see the problem staring you in the face?





Now, look carefully at what is happening here,
or let us do some simple abstract math.


Assume we have an end game one handed weapon named "X248" that does 100 points of damage,
never critical hits, never add extra effects. Simple and to the point.


Let us give the Paladin an awesome end game shield "Y136" that also does 80 points of damage,
although we all know that is unlikely for a shield to hit as hard as a weapon does.

Let us give the Barbarian an awesome end game two handed weapon "Z369"
that does 120 points of damage, never critical hits, never adds extra effects.

Assume everyone's strength is 10 for simplicity.
Assume they have not farmed out epic destinies.
Assume they forgot to spend action points on enhancements.



Ranger Joe is dual wielding the X248 weapon and has taken,
power attack, and the entire (all three of the) two weapon fighting feats.

Ranger Joe gets 100+5 damage with his main hand.
Ranger Joe gets (100+5) * 80% with his off hand.
Ranger Joe gets 185.6 ish total damage.



Barbarian Bob is wielding a two handed version of Z369

Barbarian Bob gets 120+12 damage with his main hand.
Barbarian Bob gets (100+12) * 50% glancing blows which hits multiple foes.
Barbarian Bob gets 188 damage to main target and more to side targets.



Paladin Tim is wielding X248 in main hand and y135 in off hand.

Paladin Tim gets 100 damage with his main hand.
Paladin Tim gets 8% doublestrike with his main hand or (100) * 8%.
Paladin Tim gets a 20% chance to shield bash with his shield Y135 (80)* 20%
Paladin Tim gets 124 damage to main target.



Now with plain and simple math, can we see why Paladins are awful at damage.
Their three feat combat line is terrible.

[Silverleafeon]

I politely but confidently challenge the current thinking on sword and shield type feats
as being underpowered and resulting in class/role unbalance in the game.

[Silverleafeon]

I politely challenge the shield mastery feat line.


I would rewrite the whole feat line to look this:


Shield Mastery

Shield enables the character to retain the shield bonus to his armor class when using shield bash, and grants an automatic shield bash increased chance of 20% when attacking while stationary with a one-handed weapon and shield - if you meet certain other requirements. You'll actually see your character performing the bash when it happens, although it's a quick combination-animation that does not slow down your normal attack rate.

You are skilled with the use of a shield, and your physical resistance is increased by 3 when using a buckler or small shield, 5 when using a large shield, or 10 when using a tower shield. You gain 5% doublestrike while using a shield.


Improved Shield Mastery

Your chance to generate a shield bash from Shield Mastery increases by 20% for a total of 40%.
Your physical resistance is increased by an additional 3 when using a buckler or small shield, 5 when using a large shield, or 10 when using a tower shield. You gain an additional 5% doublestrike while using a shield for a total of 10%.


Greater Shield Mastery

Your chance to generate a shield bash from Shield Mastery increases by 20% for a total of 60%.
Your physical resistance is increased by an additional 3 when using a buckler or small shield, 5 when using a large shield, or 10 when using a tower shield. You gain an additional 5% doublestrike while using a shield for a total of 15%.

[Silverleafeon]

But DPS is terrible when using a shield!
We intend to give characters who use weapon and shield additional options.

Sev~

Yes, I see your options coming, but the base feat and the overall design is flawed.
Combine them into a single line with improved and greater please.

Fixing things at the enhancement level is not the best way.
Plug the leak then mop up the water.
Otherwise you will be going everywhere to fix things at higher levels,
which leaves holes, flaws, and abuse problems.

Thanks for all you are doing, we do appreciate it.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Don't forget a shield bash cannot proc more tha 1 per second I believe

[Silverleafeon]

Don't forget a shield bash cannot proc more tha 1 per second I believe

Thanks!!

[Silverleafeon]

Make the shield line exclusive like the single weapon fighting line if you want.


Cannot take TWF or THF or SWF if you take Shield Master/Improved/Greater

[Thar]

With the prr and Mrr changes, there is no reason to nerf light armor evasion tanks more and limit us to light shields.... You already give up dps for using a shield...

It would be different if this was game day one with a multitude of options in game but everyone has bank and tr cache of heavy shields on their tanks. Do you really want to make people regrind all new shields for all levels for a tr... for what, so you can't deflect some spell damage? we would be probably avoiding it with evasion anyway.

Stop making changes to hurt existing builds that NEED help.

The PRR and MRR changes already are making newbie tanks that slap on some armor almost as good if not better than evasion. Why hurt these classes more? If you have access to heavy shield, make it work the way it has for years...

[Synthetic]

MRR and PRR really shouldn't be related. MRR should be based off of saves rather then armor as they represent your defense against magic. I think someone mentioned spell resistance which would make sense too. Maybe have MRR be SR + appropriate save + Ac bonus from armor. You can then figure out shield usage as a modifier for it against reflex saves - sr + ac bonus from armor + reflex * 1.5- 2.5 dependent on using a small medium or large shield. Make evasion not work with medium shields but evasion shield tanks still benefit from good saves. It also would be synergistic with improving pure paladins.

Just tying it to PRR doesn't add any build diversity tying it to saves and SR gives a boost to two things which are all or nothing pretty much and makes it worth while to work at increasing them.

*edit to add Ac bonus from armor to help improve heavy armors - call it a cold iron bonus

[Silverleafeon]

I might be a little over the top with the increased PPR there, but I hope you see the overall idea.

Also, what happens when a player takes improved shield bashing,
then takes two weapon fighting?

A shield is an off hand weapon right?

If that is so, then maybe some paths are already embedded into the game.


But still the double strike on Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery
is way too low, please increase and/or combine improved shield bashing with
Shield mastery and make improved shield mastery have a better auto
shield bash percentage.

I still say, let us fix the problem at its source,
even if you intend to add more at the enhancement levels.

That way the unknown and random builds are dealt with too.

[Thumbed_Servant]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ight=new+thing

[LuKaSu]

This thread has been going on for a while, and I don't think I saw anything about Warforged. When the AC/PRR change came through, there was a bunch of people saying that the end of the Melee Warforged was over, because the Body Feats didn't seem to get as good of treatment as the actual armor in the game. It would be nice to make sure that WF Adamantine armor was given PRR and MRR as Heavy Armor, and the Mithral Body feat given Medium armor levels of protection (while still being considered light armor, like other Mithral things).

Maybe this update might also be a good time to renew the discussion of giving Warforged their body feat as a free selectable feat?