Armor and Mitigation Changes

[Thrudh]

I still think evasion shluld be able to work with a large shield, not towers.

I agree with this too... Large shield and evasion is okay....

[Talon_Moonshadow]

/swings watch back and forth

You did not read anything about any future content. Sev did not spoil any future plans.

/snaps finger

Sev~

Mono-toning: I did not read anything about future content. Sev did not spoil any future plans.


/shakeshead

Uhmmm.. what were we talking about again?

[Delacroix21]

I kinda hope you would undo the dodge cap change to medium armor. It has always been inferior to heavy armor in every way, a 10% dodge cap made it a viable option. Please reverse this.

[Psiandron]

When PRR was introduced, mithral took a hit. That being said, Medium Cav plate and the like have been that way for quite a while. The quoted piece is reasonable but I think this overhaul is an opportunity for something more interesting.

Instead of treating mithral as medium armor with heavy PRR or whatever, how about leaving it as is with the following simple modification:

Mithral:
Armor is treated as one category type lighter then normal
-10% Arcane spell failure (to a minimum of 0)
3 reduction to Armor check penalty for armor (to a minimum of 0)
+2 increase of the maximum dexterity bonus to AC
1/2 standard weight
+ X stacking MRR

Adamantine:
Provides damage reduction (DR) based on the type of armor that is made from it: Light: 1/- damage reduction Medium: 2/- damage reduction Heavy: 3/- damage reduction
Hardness rating 10 points higher then equivalent steel armor
+X stacking PRR

The value of XP is worth debating. It could be a constant value like 10 or 20. It could scale based on the armor's enhancement value. Or it could be a combination of the two. Shields could also grant more on top of armor.

Intuitively, I personally think X should be about 20.

Yeah, I'd rather see it go back to the way it was, the way it was supposed to be. Not one thing changed on mithral armor when the last AC pass was done, except that it's AC and PRR were based of it's weight and not the armor type. Just reversing that would make it useful again, without any recourse to a lot of shucking and jiving.

Glad to see that you guys are considering this Sev.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

We have been looking at the epic elite melee damage.

That said, the reason we don't only do this is because there are a number of well designed builds currently in play that already thrive in the epic elite content. Lowering the damage and capabilities of the creatures would do nothing to convince the players to move to less powerful builds, nor would it provide a compelling reason to examine the benefits of lots of builds, classes and items that are being largely ignored at the end game. Our goal is not to make the game easier, but rather to provide a wider variety of compelling and fun character builds.

When we examined the current builds being used and read through the player feedback in the balance thread one thing was clear; armored characters were not well represented in the end game. Not only does this shut down a lot of classes, but the heavily armored character is an iconic figure in D&D lore and art. We wanted to give players a reason to develop those types of characters.

Sev~

From what I see EE monsters are fine.

At least for anyone who is not a brand new player.

My builds suck by most people's standards, but I use tactics to get by.

I see plenty of PUGs that power through EE with no problem. Roughly 50% by estimate...

Lowering EE monster stats will remove any challenging content we have.


And seriously, if people just slowed down and used tactics, most EE fights are easy for any build.
(some exceptions, generally small rooms with large spawns, no exits, and especially if they have casters with stun spells)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So there is no reason for a heavy armor wearer to concern himself/herself with reflex saves? I am not sure I like that - I think Will, Fortitude and Relfex is very nicely done in D&D in terms of balance, builds and ability scores. MRR does not require much investment that I can see unlike evasion requires saves and dexterity - I think that this is an insufficient proposal and ironically an odd nerf to paladins. I would like a comparable investment to reflex save for this new concept.

By the way D&D has officially left the building.

I was wondering this too.

Under the new system, does Ref save mean anything? (if you wear heavy armor)

[Bridge_Dweller]

I was wondering this too.

Under the new system, does Ref save mean anything? (if you wear heavy armor)

One would hope you could still save for half.

[Cleanincubus]

Casters with robe without evasion? Why would you do it? answer--> because you want an higher dc. From great power comes less defence.
Want to dodge incoming spell damage? splash 2 lvl of monk or rogue for evasion.
Want to stay pure (with higher dc) and reduce some spell damage coming your way? Invest in arcane spell failure stuff and wear medium armors and get insightful reflexes.
you gotta help yourself

I shouldn't have to splash with any other class. Nor should I have to change my build, and wear heavier armor. There should be less restrictions for all builds, not more. It's not like I'm talking about an uncommon build, just a simple pure caster one. And if they're taking the time do make these changes, they should do it right to benefit everyone.

[LordTigerDawn]

I just wanted to point out that the new PRR and MRR settings again nerf bards. They are stuck wearing light armour and do not get evasion till lvl 20 if only they are using swashbuckler.

This would not have been the case if you had moved evasion to lvl 12 of swashbuckler.

Bards all now have to splash 2 rogue for evasion, just to be competent where the defense balance is set.

Otherwise they are the bard sacrifice they are supposed to be.

---

[OverlordOfRats]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

/snip

Sev~

Please reinstate it. It was a dodge buff to all armor types except robes, which stayed the same at 25%.

I was looking forward to my tempest ranger who wears chain armor having a little better dodge.

[peng]

I made a chart comparing the new and old PRR formulas. Until you hit 210 PRR, the difference between the formulas is less than 1.22% mitigation. From 15 to 173 PRR, the new formula is (very slightly) worse.

[LuKaSu]

I just wanted to point out that the new PRR and MRR settings again nerf bards. They are stuck wearing light armour and do not get evasion till lvl 20 if only they are using swashbuckler.

This would not have been the case if you had moved evasion to lvl 12 of swashbuckler.

Bards all now have to splash 2 rogue for evasion, just to be competent where the defense balance is set.

Otherwise they are the bard sacrifice they are supposed to be.

---

If they fix Mithral to give protection one level higher than the weight class (i.e., Mithral Chain Shirt protecting like medium, but being light armor, like how it used to be), bards could have defensive options. Using mithral light armor for their swashbuckling evasive builds, or using Warchanter's medium armor casting proficiency with medium mithral (protecting like heavy, because it's mithral), it could give bard some pretty sweet defensive choices.

[thegreatneil]

If they fix Mithral to give protection one level higher than the weight class (i.e., Mithral Chain Shirt protecting like medium, but being light armor, like how it used to be), bards could have defensive options. Using mithral light armor for their swashbuckling evasive builds, or using Warchanter's medium armor casting proficiency with medium mithral (protecting like heavy, because it's mithral), it could give bard some pretty sweet defensive choices.

I agree.

[Krell]

Booooooooo.

I hate everything in this post just as much as I loved everything in the original OP. These are terrible concessions to make to the vocal minority who don't care a whit about game balance, but rather only care that their personal builds don't get changed.

If there's no PRR cap, you should remove the dodge cap as well. If there's going to be a dodge cap, there should be a PRR cap. Stick to your original vision.

My voice of reason post of the day . If you consider changes from day 1 feedback, then consider adjustments from additional feedback as well.

[poltt48]

I like all the changes proposed except for dodge cap changes. The dodge cap changes going to really screw rogues. Rogues get the most dodge in the whole game now but don't have a high enough cap to take it. Then there the only high dodge class in game that has no enhancement to raise cap now how is. Now your going to lower it even more when they already have trouble surviving in EH and EE content. If changes do go live rogue pretty much become useless other then trap monkeys since they already take way to much damage. Just making them take even more is stupid.

[EllisDee37]

I like all the changes proposed except for dodge cap changes. The dodge cap changes going to really screw rogues. Rogues get the most dodge in the whole game now but don't have a high enough cap to take it. Then there the only high dodge class in game that has no enhancement to raise cap now how is. Now your going to lower it even more when they already have trouble surviving in EH and EE content. If changes do go live rogue pretty much become useless other then trap monkeys since they already take way to much damage. Just making them take even more is stupid.

Totally agreed, except for the fact that you're completely wrong and the proposed (since scrapped) dodge changes would have INCREASED dodge for rogues, along with everyone else.

Why was the dodge increase scrapped? Because an avalanche of people misread or misunderstood the information just like you did.

[Yaga_Nub]

We have been looking at the epic elite melee damage.

That said, the reason we don't only do this is because there are a number of well designed builds currently in play that already thrive in the epic elite content. Lowering the damage and capabilities of the creatures would do nothing to convince the players to move to less powerful builds, nor would it provide a compelling reason to examine the benefits of lots of builds, classes and items that are being largely ignored at the end game. Our goal is not to make the game easier, but rather to provide a wider variety of compelling and fun character builds.

When we examined the current builds being used and read through the player feedback in the balance thread one thing was clear; armored characters were not well represented in the end game. Not only does this shut down a lot of classes, but the heavily armored character is an iconic figure in D&D lore and art. We wanted to give players a reason to develop those types of characters.

Sev~

Cool. Thanks for the reply. Now how about making Magic Resistance work for all spells and forget this crazy MRR idea?

[Scraap]

Cool. Thanks for the reply. Now how about making Magic Resistance work for all spells and forget this crazy MRR idea?

Granted: Now includes all magic, including hjeels as well. (Too oldschool DnD?) (Seriously though, could see the merit in that.)

[oradafu]

Just read the OP and like what I was reading. So I continued to browse this thread to see what changes have happened. Then I run into this statement from the Devs that contains completely asinine changes that ruin my intital interest in finally fixing one aspect of the game that's been broken for far too long:

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

It looks like I'm yet another person that agrees with the following post:

Booooooooo.

I hate everything in this post just as much as I loved everything in the original OP. These are terrible concessions to make to the vocal minority who don't care a whit about game balance, but rather only care that their personal builds don't get changed.

If there's no PRR cap, you should remove the dodge cap as well. If there's going to be a dodge cap, there should be a PRR cap. Stick to your original vision.

[Zzevel]

I kinda hope you would undo the dodge cap change to medium armor. It has always been inferior to heavy armor in every way, a 10% dodge cap made it a viable option. Please reverse this.

Undo the Dodge Cap and insate a jump cap for armor! [/:P]

The lighter the armor the more chance you have to dodge, I agree medium armor should have some sort of dodge advantage over heavy plate, but less than light or robes.