Armor and Mitigation Changes

[levesque2004]

o.O really? You are not going to buff dodge because a handful of people dont understand the benefit of the change? Your joking right?


I dont understand how a couple folks can change something like this. There are far more people in favor of the buff than whiners about some fringe build or people who ust plain dont understand the change.

two quotes:

"stupid is as stupid does" - Forrest Gump

"the squeaky wheel gets the grease" - Josh Billings (maybe)

[DagazUlf]

If only there was this collective of people, a GROUP of them FOCUSED on the changes who could give meaningful impact and thoughts on the subject. Alas we now live in a LAND where we can do naught but MOURN anymore.

Pours out some for the lost homies.

[levesque2004]

If only there was this collective of people, a GROUP of them FOCUSED on the changes who could give meaningful impact and thoughts on the subject. Alas we now live in a LAND where we can do naught but MOURN anymore.

Wait, I thought that's what the player's council was for.... oh, yeah, never mind.

[nikos1313]

even though i can be positive with any changes, im glad these didnt pass. the raise to dodge cap , AC and PRR etc will just make this game so much easier, will only encourage solo play and kill the groups even more. at least thats my opinion. might be wrong though..

[B0ltdrag0n]

even though i can be positive with any changes, im glad these didnt pass. the raise to dodge cap , AC and PRR etc will just make this game so much easier, will only encourage solo play and kill the groups even more. at least thats my opinion. might be wrong though..

No might be, about it.

[L2Marshall]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

Thank you very much for taking another look at this!

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

I like everything but the dodge cap un-buff. Is it a technical issue or is really just players complaining? because if it's the latter, please ignore them.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

+1 impressed with speed of reply and of action.

should have kept the dodge cap.

How about inherent DR based upon armor weight and magical bonus?

	base
cloth/robe	0
light (docent)	1
med (mithral plating docent)	2
heavy (adamantine plating docent)	3

Formula:
base * magical enhancement value = DR (straight DR - cannot be bypassed)

So wearing nothing gives DR 0

Mithral plating with +5 docent gives DR 10 (stacking)

Heavy Full Plate +10 gives DR 30 (stacking)

**********************************

Adamantine give a bonus of +3 to base (except docent) (which makes sense because adamantine plating with docent would equal the same)

so wearing adamantine heavy full plate +10 would give DR 60 (stacking)


something along this line. simple to code and efficient use.

[Delacroix21]

Some changes based on player feedback:


~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

Don't put any caps in! You are allready giving the heavier armors a bonus to PRR and mrr so why isn't that enough? You do realize that wizards, sorcs, and bards wear robes/light armor with no evasion?


And you seem to be forgetting Dev, that evasion is no guarantee of damage avoidance. If your reflex save isn't above a certain threshold (which is stupidly high for EE, requiring a paladin splash) it won't do a dang thing.


Also you have not addressed shields. You only give the bonus to MRR to heavy and tower, yet as I have said buckler sand small shields cut dps by the same amount (except for swashes) and so should provide the same bonus. Heavy shields allow evasion too, so that's not the issue. It's just like the elemental blocking feat. You Devs seem to think you need to make each shield category provide a different bonus, when they allready do through the AC they provide. As I have said, there is NO PROs in using a small shield vs a heavy in the current system and made worse in your system.


Stated again so you actually read it:
There is NO scenario where a small shield benefits any build over a heavy shield in your system.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think I like this....

but the math is difficult.....lol



I also think you just nerfed my build (again).


But looks like it fixes a major problem in the game. (if the math works out anyway)

[EllisDee37]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

Booooooooo.

I hate everything in this post just as much as I loved everything in the original OP. These are terrible concessions to make to the vocal minority who don't care a whit about game balance, but rather only care that their personal builds don't get changed.

If there's no PRR cap, you should remove the dodge cap as well. If there's going to be a dodge cap, there should be a PRR cap. Stick to your original vision.

[Cleanincubus]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

I strongly disagree with this. The Devs need to stop paying attention only to the most popular builds, and start looking at the broader picture. Not everyone who wears robes or outfits has Evasion. Quote above is certainly a change from what I've see posted previously in this thread, that was basically wearing robes/outfits were going to get you nothing, because it was assumed you had Evasion if you wore them. But what's quoted above doesn't sit well with me either. My Pale Master Drow, who has natural Spell Resistance, is going to have the MRR capped or reduced, all because Monks or Rogues may benefit too much? Wouldn't a magic using Class be more knowledgeable about how a spell is going to come at them, than say a fighter who's lifelong training has consisted of swinging a weapon around? Yet the magic using Class' "armor" is going to have a Magic Resist Rating capped, while the warrior Class' heavy armor isn't going to? This makes no sense. I can understand the PRR being capped to a certain point, specifically because of the physical composition difference between a magical robe/outfit and a magical full plate of armor, but not MRR.

As for PRR, with robes/outfits, something needs to be done. If every other Classes are going to benefit by these proposed changes, then all Classes should. There needs to be a way to differentiate between the benefits a magic using Class receives from a robe/outfit, and what a Class that has Evasion & wears robes/outfits receives. Some kind of code that detects whether a character has the Evasion Feat, should be put in place. Please don't just shove this new system out before doing something about this.

[Aviya]

But DPS is terrible when using a shield!
We intend to give characters who use weapon and shield additional options.

~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will offer enhancement options as alternates to the shield based enhancements. The enhancements that current require shields will be changed into a multi-selector, with an additional option that requires medium or heavy armor.

~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.
Sev~

I like the idea of buffing heavy armored characters to be able to take less damage overall because it's good for the game.
I don't like the idea of buffing the dps of those character on top of that.
If someone wants to create a heavy armor character with focus on enough prr and mrr for epic elite contente he needs to use a shield equipped. That means that they have to have lower dps than a thf or twf build that will have less defense in comparison.
You have to balance:
shield and heavy armor builds --> high defense, low dps
light armor builds no shields --> low defense, high dps

[arkonas]

Booooooooo.

I hate everything in this post just as much as I loved everything in the original OP. These are terrible concessions to make to the vocal minority who don't care a whit about game balance, but rather only care that their personal builds don't get changed.

If there's no PRR cap, you should remove the dodge cap as well. If there's going to be a dodge cap, there should be a PRR cap. Stick to your original vision.

even i understand it and i didnt get all of the math at the time. i knew it was a base cap and it could increase not a hard cap. i wished people would stop whining and just read more often. so im saying even i got it and im a little meeh. ignore evasion people because they want the same things as the heavy armored who don't have it so well. they want the best of both worlds. i don't think they should have it. im ok with light shields or none. you're not suppose to be wearing a big hulking shield for movement. look at history of a lot of units from ancient times. any light based unit had small shields not hulking type.

[arkonas]

I like the idea of buffing heavy armored characters to be able to take less damage overall because it's good for the game.
I don't like the idea of buffing the dps of those character on top of that.
If someone wants to create a heavy armor character with focus on enough prr and mrr for epic elite contente he needs to use a shield equipped. That means that they have to have lower dps than a thf or twf build that will have less defense in comparison.
You have to balance:
shield and heavy armor builds --> high defense, low dps
light armor builds no shields --> low defense, high dps

yeah but your dps shouldn't be that pitiful. they already sacrifice so much to get what they have. my paladin had awful dps but im not making a fighter or barb to make up for it. i made a paladin for a reason. im expecting moderate dps not low or high.

[Aviya]

My Pale Master Drow, who has natural Spell Resistance, is going to have the MRR capped or reduced, all because Monks or Rogues may benefit too much? Wouldn't a magic using Class be more knowledgeable about how a spell is going to come at them, than say a fighter who's lifelong training has consisted of swinging a weapon around? Yet the magic using Class' "armor" is going to have a Magic Resist Rating capped, while the warrior Class' heavy armor isn't going to? This makes no sense. I can understand the PRR being capped to a certain point, specifically because of the physical composition difference between a magical robe/outfit and a magical full plate of armor, but not MRR. .

Casters with robe without evasion? Why would you do it? answer--> because you want an higher dc. From great power comes less defence.
Want to dodge incoming spell damage? splash 2 lvl of monk or rogue for evasion.
Want to stay pure (with higher dc) and reduce some spell damage coming your way? Invest in arcane spell failure stuff and wear medium armors and get insightful reflexes.
you gotta help yourself

[viktorserak]

Dear Severlin,


when I first spotted this topic, I was like: what the heck are they going to break now.

Yet, I was totally wrong!

These are good and solid changes.

You have a plan, it makes sense, it seems really well.

I will actually reinstall DDO for this - and I will TR out of my -ofc- robed stick build before you start this.

Heck - my Heavy plated TRed dwarven Cleric will prolly advance past level 8 because of this!

Just two wishes please:

1. Some ppl are unhappy about the -at least partial- demise of evasion tanks. Dont let them break you. Whatever you do for evasion tanks, you will aslo do for evasion builds. Dont make evasion builds stronger then they are now. They are very strong. I know, I leveled and TRed several to the capp and I run EE content on them.

2. So.... Epic Abbot?

[Bargol]

--snip--
In addition, there are new or changed caps on certain scores based on the armor you are wearing.

Note that Medium and Heavy armor will continue to negate the Evasion feat.

In addition, some shields will negate the Evasion feat.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: None
Heavy Shield: No Evasion feat
Tower Shield: No Evasion feat

PRR and MRR Cap for armor (tentative, work in progress)

Robes or Outfit: -/100
Light Armor: -/200
Medium Armor: No cap
Heavy Armor: No cap

Note that we have designed this so characters cannot gain both Evasion and the shield bonus coupled with high levels of resistance rating. This is intentional. If you see a hole in our design that allows for this please warn us!

--snip--

On an evasion fighter in light armor (older style evasion tanks) using a shield currently grants AC and PRR plus bonuses from stances. By removing shields from being possible for evasion you kill this type of build (is currently on its last leg). The extra boost to AC and PRR are needed sometimes for tanking. How about instead of loosing evasion they just don't get the magical resistance? They would keep evasion and get the ac and PRR making this type of build still viable.

More options > less options.

[-Zephyr-]

Thank you for not capping PRR on robes/outfits.

[Aviya]

yeah but your dps shouldn't be that pitiful. they already sacrifice so much to get what they have. my paladin had awful dps but im not making a fighter or barb to make up for it. i made a paladin for a reason. im expecting moderate dps not low or high.

I think it should be very different dps and noticeable.
I like a game where each character is different one from the other. The more difference there is, more people will want to play the game using different builds because it would bring a different experience.
I wouldn't want to try a barbarian life after my paladin tank life if the dps was almost the same or the difference was moderate, I want a huge dps difference if I have to grind 3.8 millior heroic xp and 6.6 million of epic xp