Armor and Mitigation Changes

[haulindonkey]

Why not simply give the option of any of the three shield or medium or heavy armor required for use, so as not to bone any current builds already in use. I like alot of the changes, but if this is ment to make heavy armor wearers and tanks more effective again, people who chose to be an evasion tank (light armor stalwart) rather than moving to this would get hurt in this. Im all for making other things viable but not to make a current build much less useful. Hence make it shield or medium/heavy... or both for those inclined. Just my 2 cents.

I second the motion and throw in as many cents (and as much sense) as I can ---> Translation: please don't screw over stalwart light armor builds that currently benefit from taking up through tier 5 in the tree with a shield and still maintain evasion

[Monkey_Archer]

Seriously? You're putting a cap on the PRR we can have based on the armor we use?

Let me just point out, some of us (or more accurately a LOT of us) have worked very hard to obtain those PDK and Divine Sphere past lives so we can have PRR > 100 while using a robe/outfit. Please reconsider this. It is very rude to invalidate our efforts to improve our characters so bluntly.

When I first saw this I actually thought the cap for unarmored should be even lower, but after thinking about it more I think you are right. Artificially capping PRR does unfairly penalize those that put the effort to get past these limits. Since the spirit of these changes is to buff rather then nerf, why not remove the cap and instead give armor a PRR multiplier? Something like light/medium/heavy armor increases your total PRR by 10/20/30%

[Ayseifn]

When I first saw this I actually thought the cap for unarmored should be even lower, but after thinking about it more I think you are right. Artificially capping PRR does unfairly penalize those that put the effort to get past these limits. Since the spirit of these changes is to buff rather then nerf, why not remove the cap and instead give armor a PRR multiplier? Something like light/medium/heavy armor increases your total PRR by 10/20/30%

If I got the math right then a heavy armour wearer with heavy shield and 225 PRR(450 MMR) would take the same damage as a robe wearer with Imp Evasion and 100 PRR if they both failed their save.

[Monkey_Archer]

If I got the math right then a heavy armour wearer with heavy shield and 225 PRR(450 MMR) would take the same damage as a robe wearer with Imp Evasion and 100 PRR if they both failed their save.

As I understand it, 450 MRR would be 150/600 = 0.25 multiplier, whereas 100 MRR and improved evasion would be 150/250 * 0.5 = 0.3 mutliplier. The armor/shield user would only need a base 175 PRR (350 MRR) to get the same benefit on a failed save.

[brzytki]

As I understand it, 450 MRR would be 150/600 = 0.25 multiplier, whereas 100 MRR and improved evasion would be 150/250 * 0.5 = 0.3 mutliplier. The armor/shield user would only need a base 175 PRR (350 MRR) to get the same benefit on a failed save.

Not to mention Evasion working only on those spells that require a reflex save, whereas MRR works on ALL magical damage. This includes ray spells (Disintegration, Polar Ray, Necrotic Ray, Frost Lance, Scorching Ray, Melf, Searing Light), shout-like spells (Shout, Soundburst), Horrid Wilting, FoD, Acid Fog, DoTs (Niac's, Burning Blood, DP), MM, Inflict Wounds, Slay Living and so on.

That means the MRR multiplier has to go down a little.

Edit: Nvm this, I've read it again and noticed that the doubled MRR is only against reflex save AOE spell damage.

[sirgog]

Serious balance work. Finally.

I'm too far out of the loop to predict if these are excellent balance changes, good changes or flawed but slightly positive changes, but the fact that serious work is going into balance for the first time since MoTU has inspired me to reinstall the DDO client.

It has been a while.


Edit: For simplicity, change the constant from 150 to 100, and reduce all sources of PRR and the new MRR stat by one-third (rounded however seems appropriate on a case-by-case basis). Same overall effect, much more 'grokkable'. PRR 277 would then mean "To lose 100 hp, you need to suffer 100+277 hp of damage".

[DrakeFury]

Best news in some time.

Really looking forward to these changes.

[Atremus]

I like the proposed changes. But please please do not put a cap on robes that is less than achievable in game.

my Bard is looking forward to MPP

[Silverleafeon]

Serious balance work. Finally.

I'm too far out of the loop to predict if these are excellent balance changes, good changes or flawed but slightly positive changes, but the fact that serious work is going into balance for the first time since MoTU has inspired me to reinstall the DDO client.

It has been a while.


Edit: For simplicity, change the constant from 150 to 100, and reduce all sources of PRR and the new MRR stat by one-third (rounded however seems appropriate on a case-by-case basis). Same overall effect, much more 'grokkable'. PRR 277 would then mean "To lose 100 hp, you need to suffer 100+277 hp of damage".

I am excited about the future.

[Nascoe]

This looks like it has a lot of potential! Thanks for making Heavy Armord types valid again. It oens up tons of possibilities. Again, Thank You Very Much!

Also this. I know Mithral is supposed to be give the AC of one level, with the weight of the next one down (like Mithral Chain Shirt giving the AC of medium, but being light) Is there a chance that this might be taken into effect with the PRR/MRR system as well? Like, give the PRR of medium, while being light? Not giving all the benefits, like the Stalwart stuff, but just the PRR/MRR. I'd love to give my Favored Soul (initially only proficient in Medium) some damage resistance, since he also isn't an evasion character.

I agree on giving a bit of attention to the material types again while working on this "armor & shield pass". Give Adamantine a good real reason to exsist (maybe give it a bit more MRR, etc) and Mithral could help mitigate the limitations on light armor wearers who still want to go for defender PREs (by giving them a medium armor to qualify for it that also allows to do evasion). It would actually make it a bit of a theme again to hunt for the materials armors are made of and help not to lock barbarians, bards (fighter defender tree) and FvS (both defender trees) provided they look for the right equipment.

I do think Bucklers should give at least some PRR/MRR boost, especially as the light medium/heavy armor restriction for defenders under this proposal works to lock out swashbucklers of using defender stance while swashbuckling anyway.

Another issue is what was mentioned about different types of light medium and heavy armors giving different benefits. If we want Full plate and Half plate, Scaled and Breastplate, and chainmail and leather armor to all be viable, there needs to an advantage as well as a disadvantage to each of the choices per armor type, otherwise one becomes just worthless (i.e. if half plate does NOT offer a MDB and Dodge advantage over Full plate, why use it, and the other way around full should give more AC but maybe a bit more PRR/MRR too?).

What does this do with docents and the WF body types?

[ChicagoChris]

Greetings.

...

Robes or Outfits: No PRR, no MRR
Light Armor: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Medium Armor: 30 PRR, 30 MRR if armor has enchantments.
Heavy Armor: 45 PRR, 45 MRR if armor has enchantments.

Shields will give additional PRR and, if enchanted, MRR.

Buckler: None
Light Shield: 5 PRR, 5 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Heavy Shield: 10 PRR, 10 MRR if shield has enchantments.
Tower Shield: 15 PRR, 15 MRR if shield has enchantments.

...

Sev~

Please please for the love of all things DDO, have mithral count one level *higher* for PRR and MRR. Epic Cavalry Plate should have some of the most PRR/MRR in the game. Having built up the Cavalry Plate and having it become *worse* when made epic (shift from steel to mithral) was just a slap in the face.

Taking the metals into account, you could have Mithral increase MRR and Adamantine increases PRR - so that an Mithral heavy plate (shows as medium) would have: 45 PRR, 60 MRR if armor has enchantments, and Adamantine would have 60 PRR, 45 MRR.

[Theolin]

Ohhhh where to start? First off there are 3 divine spheres and PDK that is 9*3=36, so incorrect on that point. What I should or should not do with my character is none of your concern but the fact is, I spent a very considerable amount of time building it the way I wanted it, and part of that was epic and iconic TRing. If I had known ahead of time that there would be a hard cap much lower than what is achievable now I would not have done the TRing, the fact is, right now an unarmored toon can get to around 150 without the past lives, as other have also stated in this thread.

If I was concerned with other things my toon could use instead then I would have made those changes on my own, but i guess items like Dumathoin's Bracers (Bracers): Natural Armor +10, Elemental Resistance +45, Sheltering +30, Blue Augment Slot, Dexterity +11 really are useless without the PRR so I will just dump that. I will dump earth stance too, because I dont really care about the extra multiplier on my crits, that is in no way a part of why I choose earth at all and the extra hit points from meditation of war in earth stance are basically useless to. I guess that non stacking bonus to attack speed from air stance is starting to look really tempting though!

Next up, if 7% is not much, then what does it matter if I have it or not? Oh It does matter? Then your point is moot. But just for the record the target range was 180-200 not 150, that is roughly 15%, exactly the difference between me having Shadow Viel over another toon having an incorp item, which you went on to make a big deal about. Anyone can get 10% incorp on an item, and heavily armored wraith form wizards don't have any incorp at all right? Because that is an actual thing. As far as the dodge argument, well in this very thread Sev has stated that heavy armored toons will be getting a boost to dodge, no to mention the fact that right now on live servers heavy toons can get around 250+ PRR so no, they are not taking 20% more damage. In fact the best S&B Pallys can stand and take it from EE DQ (among other raid bosses) and SELF HEAL through it with no problems, something a monk is not going to do, why, they can't shield block and absorb extra damage!

If this update went live today Heavy armor toons will not only get more PRR, not only get more dodge, not only will they always take 1/2 or less damage from spells (without even having to THINK about working on their saves), ANNNND they can reach much higher AC totals, but unarmored toons also have to take a nerf to their PRR as well. I never stated once that the boost that heavy armored toon are getting is bad, I never addressed a single point other than the hard cap on PRR. In my first post in this thread I stated that Heavy armor should get boosted, that is great, everyone should be able to have fun and play the game in a way that is meaningful to them.

ALL of that is completely beside the point though. I and others, went through those past lives with a specific purpose, and given these changes, that purpose is being rendered pointless, and some of us would have decided to spend our time in other ways. All I want is some acknowledgement from the devs that a) they are taking this into consideration or b) they just don't care. I can live with either, but what I can't do is spend more time doing things in this game that are supposed to be permanent improvements to my character but end up being a useless waste of my free time, which could be spent doing something else.

agree ......

[Seikojin]

same with the heavy shield restriction on evasion please, otherwise all the current good shields (ie named) are uselss to light armor stawarts.

Evasion with shields is not a realistic tactic in the slightest. The negation option is the same thing ultimately, so that should be good.

[Severlin]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

I will be updating the OP.

Other things we will be discussing.

~ We will be looking into Mithril and other armor materials and how they interact with this system. We don't want these to make an armor worse by changing the PRR and MRR bonuses.

~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

[B0ltdrag0n]

Congrats everyone. The inability to read has destroyed a dodge cap buff.

[EazyWeazy]

Congrats everyone. The inability to read has destroyed a dodge cap buff.

No ****. Gotta love user feedback.

[RedOrm]

Congrats everyone. The inability to read has destroyed a dodge cap buff.

Yea I'm pretty disappointed at this result too.

Greetz,
Red Orm

[Mryal]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.
Sev~

This fits a lot with my signature.

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ The enhancements that require a shield in Stalwart and Sacred Defender will be a multi-selector offering a new medium/heavy armor option.

How about no requirement?

Some changes based on player feedback:
~ We are discussing an alternate system where robes and light armor have capped or reduced MRR so people who want to build for PRR can do so. Our working model is to only cap MRR and not PRR. We will need a little more time to iron out the details.

Sev~

This makes sense.

[Impaqt]

Some changes based on player feedback:

~ We are dropping the changes to Dodge cap and keeping the current system.

o.O really? You are not going to buff dodge because a handful of people dont understand the benefit of the change? Your joking right?


I dont understand how a couple folks can change something like this. There are far more people in favor of the buff than whiners about some fringe build or people who ust plain dont understand the change.

[B0ltdrag0n]

If only there was this collective of people, a GROUP of them FOCUSED on the changes who could give meaningful impact and thoughts on the subject. Alas we now live in a LAND where we can do naught but MOURN anymore.