I miss the assassin class

[Chai]

I posted the % chance of success in elite stormhorns. The highest possible assassinate DC does not give you 100% chance of success. This means you are spotted. Go run elite stormhorns and learn something about assassins and what happens when mob DC's are too high.

Please post a pick of your assassin with a DC 80-85 assassinate...

You highlighted the issue very well here. Theres nothing wrong with assassins. Mob DCs are overinflated.

Setting the acceptable benchmark at 100% success on the highest DC mobs in the game is not realistic. Its 100% or almost 100% on the rest of the entire game, but is not 100% in the 4-5 quests with the most overinflated DCs in the game, and thats a major issue?

I agree assassin needs some love, but I dont think the entire PRE is gimped because theres 4-5 quests in the game where their DC doesnt match up well against mob saves, on the highest difficulty setting.

[nokowi]

There is no such thing as an "essential class" in PnP DnD.

Spells per day? The DM makes you do 4-5 encounters and you get to rest.

Im not simply talking about "instakills" when I say the bard can be powerful.

Power doesn't equal "having more" in PnP, it equals getting the drop on your opponent. A battle between a bard and a wizard or sorc would not be about who had the most spell slots, it would be about who failed the first save.

I think its odd in a game where one melee crit on a str build kills trash mobs that people think one insta kill on CCd trash mobs only every 12 seconds is powerful. In this same game we can build a str based melee which will crit for more than a trash mob has HP wise, far more often than once per 12 seconds.

It is nice that your DM gives you a safe place to rest every 4-5 encounters, and that spells per day has no effect on your PNP gaming. I can see how you might be confused. Some PNP players are challenged to conserve spells for when they really need them.

DDO is PVP so your Bard vs Wiz/Sorc analogy has no correlation to ddo. My argument was that a specialized class based on DC killing (necro) should be better than a Bard (a class in PNP with less DC killing spells, lower DC, and fewer spells per day) at DC killing.

IMO, Not all classes are equal. If they were, we wouldn't need different classes.

You are welcome to believe that all classes can do all things equally. I hope this does not become a reality in DDO.

[nokowi]

I was a great assassin. A natural. Even as a first life toon Stabbatha when lvl cap was 20. One of the best on the server i dare to say. I later rerolled an assassin as Tankling after Motu.

Ppl that played with my assassins would not question my experience on the subject.

The reason you are right when you say assassins are not for me (any more) is because i like my toons strenghts overcome their weaknesses. Or better jet, that they have no weaknesses at all. And since in the current state of the game these are a dime a dozen, the only reason i'll prolly roll an assassin is flavor - i do love the playstyle. And that's why i'm so passionate about the subject.

I do hear what you are saying. I like melee assassin because of their weaknesses and strengths, and the challenge this creates to playing them effectively. I guess the very things you don't like are what I do like. I like being challenged. Builds with no weaknesses are boring to me. I need a class like the current assassin class.

It IS a playable class, but it is one you are going to have to work very hard for (gear, past lives for survivability). I have not yet experimented with a ranged build, so my comments are related to melee assassin. Assassins are MORE effective in EE content than EN or EH content, because each assassinate does that much more damage. You will have to sacrifice most of your build to get a good assassinate DC and you will need to learn to play with intelligence.

I am currently getting my last 6 iconic lives as casters for the iconic and heroic PL feats. Once I get done, maybe I will post a video showing assassin playstyle and several quest kill counts to show how truly fun & powerful a well built & well played assassin can be.

The only thing I don't like about assassin is that it is difficult to fill a primary role in many raid end-fights (Tank xxx, Kite yyy) because of threat reduction, undead bosses, etc. I really need to make another toon, but 70 lives as an assassin has just been too fun!

[bsquishwizzy]

You highlighted the issue very well here. Theres nothing wrong with assassins. Mob DCs are overinflated.

Setting the acceptable benchmark at 100% success on the highest DC mobs in the game is not realistic. Its 100% or almost 100% on the rest of the entire game, but is not 100% in the 4-5 quests with the most overinflated DCs in the game, and thats a major issue?

I agree assassin needs some love, but I dont think the entire PRE is gimped because theres 4-5 quests in the game where their DC doesnt match up well against mob saves, on the highest difficulty setting.

Back up the truck here.

When you go Assassin, or even rogue in general, you give up a lot of things:

1) Taking out undead. Immune to crits, and sneak attacks – which is the bread and butter of a rogue – makes rogues almost completely useless. Your only asset here is having a decent STR score, which can be done, but end up neglecting INT and DEX in some way, shape, or form. These are the core stats you really, really need for a lot of things.

2) Taking out constructs. Same issues with undead.

3) Unable to sneak past spiders and other vermin. You know how many stupid spiders are in this game?

4) Oozes. SA is useless.

5) AC and PRR. Yeah, being limited with armor means you’d better be loaded to the gills with something that avoids you getting hit altogether. And that comes at the expense of having other stuff equipped that you kinda, sorta need for combat as well.

6) HP. Seriously, the HP discrepancy got worse after the Enhancement Pass.

7) Item Enhancements. If I am an arcane, I can get a Lore, a Potency, and an element booster (corrosion, glaciation, etc.) to increase damage and crits, as well as my stat booster (INT / CHR item). If I am a fighter I get attack and damage boosters, double-strike boosters, keen / impact for crits, elemental damage, plus a lovely array of tactics like trip, sunder, and so on which also have boosters. They’ve killed SA boosters as far as I can tell, and – as far as I am aware – there are next-to-no DC boosters for assassinate. For your average player, and all things being equal – it is a stat-based ability ONLY. Maybe skill boost? But that’s about it as far as I am aware.
While many of these are not a huge issue in epic content, there are LOTS of levels between 1 and 20. As an assassin, you almost have to give up damage-dealing (which is the end-all-be-all of this game) so that you have the convenience of that one skill that eliminates a lot of problems: taking out living creatures with a single hit, and never being detected.

And if you specialize, and have average gear, you should be able to take out just about anything in that narrow band.

So I profoundly disagree. All things being equal, an assassin should excel in that type of format.

[nokowi]

You highlighted the issue very well here. Theres nothing wrong with assassins. Mob DCs are overinflated.

Setting the acceptable benchmark at 100% success on the highest DC mobs in the game is not realistic. Its 100% or almost 100% on the rest of the entire game, but is not 100% in the 4-5 quests with the most overinflated DCs in the game, and thats a major issue?

I agree assassin needs some love, but I dont think the entire PRE is gimped because theres 4-5 quests in the game where their DC doesnt match up well against mob saves, on the highest difficulty setting.

Assassinate Mob DC's are obtainable in most content with 100% success rate, so I agree there is not a DC based issue with assassins in general. I can make a first lifer and assassinate works quite well in heroic content. My posts pertain to epic content. Someone could make the argument that EE Stormhorns is not very fun for a rogue assassin, because the DC"s needed to work effectively are not obtainable. A failed assassinate takes you out of sneak mode while a successful one does not. The issue is that it is very hard to get back into sneak mode and use your signature ability.

A simple solution would be to allow an assassin an effective way to go back into hiding from ranged toons, or to have a check to see if the assassin is seen (on assassinate) that is reduced with distance. Maybe the target always sees you. In effect, you are still hiding on a failed attempt, but maybe only the closest mobs might have seen you. If you use diplomacy in time, they might go away before attacking you and taking you out of sneak mode (saving you from the archers/ranged mobs). Being seen would reset the 12 second timer to acquire a +5 DC. The whole process of a failed attempt might use up around 30 seconds before another attempt could be made.

There are probably some other ideas (diplomacy as an area effect?), smoke bomb anyone?, and maybe some tactics that already do work with the current implementation. I would like to hear comments from some top DC rogues (70-74) who go into Stormhorns regularly. I have all my random named gear and Stormhorns specific gear so I don't run this content often.

I don't think invis/resneak works because the mob you tried to assassinate runs up and hits you.

[Belegdur]

It's not about the Bard Swashbuckler tree being uber, its that the Rogue Trees are underwhelming and strictly designed for specific design builds with limited weapons.

Thief Acrobat - Dex based bonuses for Quarterstaves for the cores.
Mechanic - Int based bonuses for Crossbows
Assassin - Int based with dex bonuses for Daggers and Kukris

What is good for a strength based Rogue that dares to use other weapons? My Dwarf uses Dwarven Axes. My Drow uses rapiers.
The cores for all three trees are pretty much useless if you don't have a specific build for it.

The swashbuckler cores are what the Rogues should have.
(I reviewed them all (rogue and sb), but the preview option made it disappear from a timeout and don't have time for a rewrite.

And somewhat OT - why is swashbuckling a defensive stance with offensive bonuses? Just call it an offensive stance.

[Soulfurnace]

It's not about the Bard Swashbuckler tree being uber, its that the Rogue Trees are underwhelming and strictly designed for specific design builds with limited weapons.

Thief Acrobat - Dex based bonuses for Quarterstaves for the cores.
Mechanic - Int based bonuses for Crossbows
Assassin - Int based with dex bonuses for Daggers and Kukris

What is good for a strength based Rogue that dares to use other weapons? My Dwarf uses Dwarven Axes. My Drow uses rapiers.
The cores for all three trees are pretty much useless if you don't have a specific build for it.

The swashbuckler cores are what the Rogues should have.
(I reviewed them all (rogue and sb), but the preview option made it disappear from a timeout and don't have time for a rewrite.

And somewhat OT - why is swashbuckling a defensive stance with offensive bonuses? Just call it an offensive stance.

It's a defensive stance so it works with precision/power attack. Don't know why, but meh.

Str based acrobats ftw. Hey, we all know a horc acrobat is fun to laugh at. With +6 to two handed damage and more str than usual at least we can laugh as it hits us hard.

[apep1412]

A failed assassinate takes you out of sneak mode while a successful one does not.

Assassinate never takes you out of sneak mode, failed or successful. Attacking afterwards will.

A mob attempting to attack you will, whether it's a hit, miss, etc.

[Tinco]

Assassinate should imo always be an option and not a 100% gameplay defining ability. The DC problem in the highest EE content affects all DC based characters, from monks to casters. That's a problem of mob tuning and not of the assassin itself.

The underlying problem (that was already mentioned I think) I have with rogue is the narrowness of their enhancement trees. I really like rogues but the enhancement trees simply don't support the style of rogue I personally like to play (TWF/UA acrobatic monkish trickster melee rogue). Especially the assassin tree heavily penalizes multiclassing because of the class-level/int dependency. TA is really good but it's not a very creative tree, there's basically only one core build supported. Mechanic has nice ideas but again is very crossbow-fixated because the bombs don't really cut it.

To summarize, I think rogues, even though they have three enhancements trees, are one of the losers of the enhancement pass and for my preferred playstyle I really struggle to incorporate more than 2-3 rogue levels into my builds nowadays.

[Chai]

It is nice that your DM gives you a safe place to rest every 4-5 encounters, and that spells per day has no effect on your PNP gaming. I can see how you might be confused. Some PNP players are challenged to conserve spells for when they really need them.

Im not confused - this is written right into the rules. The game is designed so the Dm provides 4 at level challenges to the party and then does an assessment of their situation to see of they can provide a 5th. If not the party can rest. If you do it another way thats fine, but thats rule zero, not rule as written. Claiming someone else is confused for playing by the rules is oberoni.

DDO is PVP so your Bard vs Wiz/Sorc analogy has no correlation to ddo. My argument was that a specialized class based on DC killing (necro) should be better than a Bard (a class in PNP with less DC killing spells, lower DC, and fewer spells per day) at DC killing.

It was a response to spells per day being relevant to how much power characters have in context with PnP. The analogy is not an analogy at all, its a straight up comparison, and it does hold water. Less DC killing =/= less ability to kill.

IMO, Not all classes are equal. If they were, we wouldn't need different classes.

You are welcome to believe that all classes can do all things equally. I hope this does not become a reality in DDO.

in D&D games all classes arent equal. If they were your class would be a "skin" that is basically your characters avatar. Think gauntlet the arcade game.

[Chai]

Back up the truck here.

When you go Assassin, or even rogue in general, you give up a lot of things:

1) Taking out undead. Immune to crits, and sneak attacks – which is the bread and butter of a rogue – makes rogues almost completely useless. Your only asset here is having a decent STR score, which can be done, but end up neglecting INT and DEX in some way, shape, or form. These are the core stats you really, really need for a lot of things.

2) Taking out constructs. Same issues with undead.

3) Unable to sneak past spiders and other vermin. You know how many stupid spiders are in this game?

4) Oozes. SA is useless.

5) AC and PRR. Yeah, being limited with armor means you’d better be loaded to the gills with something that avoids you getting hit altogether. And that comes at the expense of having other stuff equipped that you kinda, sorta need for combat as well.

6) HP. Seriously, the HP discrepancy got worse after the Enhancement Pass.

7) Item Enhancements. If I am an arcane, I can get a Lore, a Potency, and an element booster (corrosion, glaciation, etc.) to increase damage and crits, as well as my stat booster (INT / CHR item). If I am a fighter I get attack and damage boosters, double-strike boosters, keen / impact for crits, elemental damage, plus a lovely array of tactics like trip, sunder, and so on which also have boosters. They’ve killed SA boosters as far as I can tell, and – as far as I am aware – there are next-to-no DC boosters for assassinate. For your average player, and all things being equal – it is a stat-based ability ONLY. Maybe skill boost? But that’s about it as far as I am aware.
While many of these are not a huge issue in epic content, there are LOTS of levels between 1 and 20. As an assassin, you almost have to give up damage-dealing (which is the end-all-be-all of this game) so that you have the convenience of that one skill that eliminates a lot of problems: taking out living creatures with a single hit, and never being detected.

And if you specialize, and have average gear, you should be able to take out just about anything in that narrow band.

So I profoundly disagree. All things being equal, an assassin should excel in that type of format.

If someone built a rogue to rely heavily on SA damage and didnt build contingencies in for other content, thats a build issue and not a rogue class issue. Rogues can be built to have enough base weapon damage to kill the mobs you mention. They can also equip weapons that specialize in doing to. There is no limitation that prohibitively denies outright the ability to build those contingencies in. People do so because they get drawn into having as much SA damage as possible and then cant contribute in other situations. Not all constructs and undead are crit immune. I see SA damage every 2nd or 3rd hit on many of them. On the ones I dont, my base damage + using the right wepons makes me a contributor.

These things have always been a balancing factor for rogues. They trade being better at single target burst damage for being worse in higher fort situations. Worse =/= useless however. Assassins need some love, but its not a useless class or an underpowered class to the tune that some claim.

[CThruTheEgo]

I really tried not commenting on this response, but I failed my self restraint check. None of these are as big of an issue as this post makes them out to seem.

Taking out constructs.

Living constructs (i.e. warforged) are not immune to sneak attacks. Wrack construct from mechanic makes all other constructs a non-issue since it enables sneak attacks against them. This is a non-issue.

Unable to sneak past spiders and other vermin. You know how many stupid spiders are in this game?

It's only spiders that you can't sneak past. And to answer you're question - not that many. This is a non-issue.

Oozes. SA is useless.

Where is this even relevant? This is a non-issue.

AC and PRR. Yeah, being limited with armor means you’d better be loaded to the gills with something that avoids you getting hit altogether. And that comes at the expense of having other stuff equipped that you kinda, sorta need for combat as well.

Anyone who mentions AC when the topic of defense comes up immediately loses credibility. An assassin can reach dodge cap easily, has the same access to displacement clickies as other melee, and gets shadow form from shadowdancer. And don't forget, the whole playstyle of a rogue is dependent on not having agro, which also means not getting hit. If you're getting a lot of attention from mobs, you're doing it wrong. A well played rogue shouldn't take more than a few hits during an average quest. This is a non-issue.

HP. Seriously, the HP discrepancy got worse after the Enhancement Pass.

700-900 HP is fairly standard for a front line melee and easily achievable on a rogue. It's primarily tank builds that end up with 1300+ and other builds should not be compared with these. So there's no discrepancy here. This is a non-issue.

Item Enhancements. If I am an arcane, I can get a Lore, a Potency, and an element booster (corrosion, glaciation, etc.) to increase damage and crits, as well as my stat booster (INT / CHR item). If I am a fighter I get attack and damage boosters, double-strike boosters, keen / impact for crits, elemental damage, plus a lovely array of tactics like trip, sunder, and so on which also have boosters. They’ve killed SA boosters as far as I can tell, and – as far as I am aware – there are next-to-no DC boosters for assassinate. For your average player, and all things being equal – it is a stat-based ability ONLY. Maybe skill boost? But that’s about it as far as I am aware.
While many of these are not a huge issue in epic content, there are LOTS of levels between 1 and 20. As an assassin, you almost have to give up damage-dealing (which is the end-all-be-all of this game) so that you have the convenience of that one skill that eliminates a lot of problems: taking out living creatures with a single hit, and never being detected.

This is the part that I just couldn't resist responding to. It makes you sound as though you've never played a rogue. Attack, damage, and doublestrike will also work on assassins. I'm not sure why you mentioned these at all. They don't favor other melees in any way. Doublestrike, in fact, offers assassins more than other classes since it means more hits which means more insane sneak attack damage. And no, there is no skill boost for assassinate DCs. Haste boost and damage boost, both of which are available to an assassin, will affect sneak attack though.

Did you forget that rogues in general, assassins especially, get an insane amount of sneak attack damage which is inherent to the class itself? Upwards of 100 sneak attack damage per hand per hit. No other melee class/build has any kind of damage bonus inherent in it that is anywhere close to this. There are so few ways to boost sneak attack through items because it is so powerful inherently. It doesn't need any boost.

The part about giving up on damage dealing made me lol.

[Belegdur]

Another thing - why does Assassinate not work with Venomed Blades turned on??? They are in the same tree, yet a rogue needs to turn off damage in order to Assassinate.
And why does Assassin's Trick have such a long animation? Its unusable in heavy fights.

CThru,

You're the one who doesn't seem like a Rogue.
"Constructs a non-issue"
Wrack Construct requires 13 AP for all 3 levels of it, and 23 AP for Disable Construct. Even so, it IS an issue - it's a 12 second timer attack on a single Construct. And you have to choose between melee or ranged. So you can't switch from Manyshot Bow to Melee for example.
Back before this Enhancement system, my Rogues were Mechanics II. Outside of single target construct fights (which are rarities), I mostly used Wrack Construct in the Shroud for use against Portals. And I think it even stopped working at one point. Is it even fixed yet?
Its a button that shouldn't be - it should be a passive bonus type attack.

"Detection a Non-issue for a low amount of spiders"
There are only 95 Spider Creature Entries - and there is never just 1 spider in a dungeon.

"Oozes are a non-issue"
Neither critical nor a non-issue. Rogues are all about increasing SA damage. It's the equivalent of making them immune to a spellcaster's elemental specialty or all special arrows or all monk moves and so on.

"AC and PRR mentioners have no credibility"
Getting even a chance at being missed and reducing damage is always a good thing. There are creatures that can see through Blur and Displacement. (Quite commonly encountered monsters in fact.)
And if you become helpless for whatever reason, that PRR will matter.
And you are obviously used to only playing in large parties. When you are doing quests solo, you will get aggro. And sometimes even in large parties... And when you're doing an all Rogue Shroud run, someone has to get aggro. (Yes, ran one (the 1st one perhaps) and yes, I was the one with the aggro.)
How many blur and displacement clickies do you have? And do you run long quests solo? Or burn through a huge amount of scrolls?

HP
Not everyone has access to uber gear and mega-guild ship buffs and tons of past lives to reach those numbers. And why would a "properly played rogue" that only gets hit a few times in a quest need "the easily achievable" 700-900 HP level anyway?

Your comments are all about endgame levels with filled parties to take aggro away from the rogue. Or its just theorycrafting with not enough real experience. Since your listed assassin build has you wondering how to slot an Open Lock item then it makes me wonder if you've actually played a Rogue - most of us swap in items as needed... In the old days before the multiple effects items (like the Spyglass), I would wear a Spot item, swap in a Search item (plus other boosts as needed), then swap in the Disable items and boosts. Same for Open Locks - swap in a set of gloves. There is no need to wear them during combat.
Have you actually played a 28 or 32 pt ungeared rogue without ship buffs and solo questing (mostly) up from level 1 until level 20+?

[Tinco]

Have you actually played a 28 or 32 pt ungeared rogue without ship buffs and solo questing (mostly) up from level 1 until level 20+?

"Stealthy Assassin Rogue" is a tough class to solo with without good equip - yes. Probably even the toughest. However, there are several observations I made over the time I played DDO. Many new rogues completely neglect their survivability and their combat abilities. It's certainly one of the (sorry for the term) most dangerous "noob traps" to create a character solely around sneaking/assassinating and trapping - the game simply doesn't support that style of play well, even less so while soloing.

But it's an iconic D&D archetype that really could get some help nowadays and I think a solution would be an easily accessible (moderately strong) deception/blindness enhancement and lower search/disarm dc's in heroic content. New rogues are simply - by game design - often not fit to fill their role in hard/elite quests on level.

That still doesn't solve the basic problem that there is a huge disparity between how new (often D&D) players think "how a rogue should look like" and what the game demands from a melee rogue; that is hp, decent base damage, good saves, high meta-knowledge of the quests.

[redoubt]

I ran a von5/6 this morning. My 20 rogue (int based) and running in divine crusader (yea, its messy at the moment) went over to the puzzle to help kill. I pulled out a pair of smiting swords and went to town on the WF there to help get conquest. The improved deception on my gloves was enough that 90% of the time the WF had its back to me and I got sneak damage. I killed about 40 of them before we were done. I didn't even need a cure pot.

Rogues are not broken... though a little love would be okay.

Biggest things I see are:

1. Assassins should get an INT to damage option.

2. A small to moderate boost to DC. Give us items that go up to 10 maybe, or allow items/feats/enhance that boost tactical skills work on assassinate. We currently have 3 items: shadar-kai only ring with +2. EPIC midnight greetings +2, and the necklace with +4. All are non-stacking. What if we could get weapons with assassinate 10 on them similar to "stunning 10"?

[CThruTheEgo]

Belegdur, your response is full of misquotes and misinformation. You should really do your homework better.

Another thing - why does Assassinate not work with Venomed Blades turned on??? They are in the same tree, yet a rogue needs to turn off damage in order to Assassinate.

This was fixed several updates ago. It is... wait for it... a non-issue.

Wrack Construct requires 13 AP for all 3 levels of it, and 23 AP for Disable Construct. Even so, it IS an issue - it's a 12 second timer attack on a single Construct. And you have to choose between melee or ranged. So you can't switch from Manyshot Bow to Melee for example.
Back before this Enhancement system, my Rogues were Mechanics II. Outside of single target construct fights (which are rarities), I mostly used Wrack Construct in the Shroud for use against Portals. And I think it even stopped working at one point. Is it even fixed yet?

It's a 4 second cooldown at rank 3 not 12 seconds. What assassin build uses manyshot, or bows for that matter? And most builds don't switch between melee and ranged frequently enough that only getting wrack construct for one of them is an issue. And I'm not aware of wrack construct not working on any constructs currently. I can say that it is currently working on Shroud portals, or at least it was the last time I ran Shroud on my rogue which was probably a couple months ago.

Wrack construct also affects party dps. So 3 AP for an enhancement that essentially removes one of a rogue's biggest weaknesses (i.e. an entire group of non-sneak attackable mobs) and boosts group dps is a solid investment. And it's not difficult to get to tier 3 in mechanic. Wand and scroll mastery is a valuable choice for scroll healing, requires 5 points to access, and costs 6 points to maximize, so you end up spending enough to easily access wrack construct. I didn't recommend getting disable construct, so I'm not sure why you mentioned that.

So I say again - wrack construct makes constructs being immune to sneak attacks a non-issue.

"Detection a Non-issue for a low amount of spiders"
There are only 95 Spider Creature Entries - and there is never just 1 spider in a dungeon.

It doesn't matter how many different "spider creature entries" there are. What matters is how often they appear, or rather, how many quests in which they appear. And they don't appear in that many. It's true there are a few quests that are spider heavy, but not enough to argue that spiders throughout the game nullify a rogue's ability to sneak. And in a group, just don't be the first in and you can sneak all you want around spiders, and even assassinate them.

"Oozes are a non-issue"
Neither critical nor a non-issue. Rogues are all about increasing SA damage. It's the equivalent of making them immune to a spellcaster's elemental specialty or all special arrows or all monk moves and so on.

My point is that there are so few oozes throughout the entire game that it doesn't matter that you can't sneak attack them. And when they are encountered, they are not a serious threat by any means. If they are a threat, then there's an issue, but it isn't the lack of sneak attack damage.

"AC and PRR mentioners have no credibility"

Read my post a little more closely. I said, "Anyone who mentions AC when the topic of defense comes up immediately loses credibility." I said nothing about PRR, in fact.

Getting even a chance at being missed and reducing damage is always a good thing. There are creatures that can see through Blur and Displacement. (Quite commonly encountered monsters in fact.)

Which quite commonly encountered monsters can see through blur and displacement exactly? You are probably mistaking true seeing with see invisibility. Quite a few mobs do have see invisibility, but very few have true seeing. AFAIK only a few raid bosses have true seeing, and maybe the odd caster/divine. But this is hardly a common problem.

And you are obviously used to only playing in large parties. When you are doing quests solo, you will get aggro. And sometimes even in large parties...

Yes I mostly run in groups. I don't enjoy soloing. I play a multiplayer game to play with others. That's just my preference. I'd agree with Tinco - rogue is not a new player solo friendly class. It requires gear and skill to do well.

How many blur and displacement clickies do you have? And do you run long quests solo? Or burn through a huge amount of scrolls?

Scrolling displacement is not an effective option imo, since they only last 30 seconds. Having to swap, recast, and swap again, takes a lot of time and results in a loss of dps. I have 5 displacement clickies on my assassin for a total of 15 full minutes of displacement. That's usually more than enough to get from one shrine to the next, although there are some places where I have to be selective about when I use them. And yes, tier 2 Shroud clickies are easily accessible.

HP
Not everyone has access to uber gear and mega-guild ship buffs and tons of past lives to reach those numbers. And why would a "properly played rogue" that only gets hit a few times in a quest need "the easily achievable" 700-900 HP level anyway?

In the HP breakdown of my build I do not include any "mega-guild ship buffs and tons of past lives." The only "uber gear" that my build uses to get 743 base HP is: 45 HP from greensteel, 40 false life slotted, and 20 vitality slotted. If tier 3 greensteel is out of reach, tier 2 should not be, so you can easily get 30 from that. 30 false life is easily found on a variety of equipment, so no reason not to have at least that much. 20 vitality might be a bit harder to find, I'll give you that. So with a tier 2 greensteel, 30 false life, and no vitality, that's only a difference of 45 HP from my build, which means a total of 698 base HP. I'm not sure why you think this is so hard to reach.

Your comments are all about endgame levels with filled parties to take aggro away from the rogue.

But isn't that what this thread is about? It is really only endgame where you need uber specialization to achieve max DCs for an effective assassinate. Assassins in heroics have a much greater degree of flexibility and don't need to max their int at all. All of these flavor builds that people have mentioned, eSoS wielding str based assassins and melee/manyshot assassins, are much more viable in lesser content. It's endgame EE where they won't cut it.

Or its just theorycrafting with not enough real experience.

...edit...

Have you actually played a 28 or 32 pt ungeared rogue without ship buffs and solo questing (mostly) up from level 1 until level 20+?

My assassin is one of 2 characters that I play on a consistent basis. My first character in the game was my assassin - a gimpy, con dumped, dex based drow, back before we got dex to damage (check my join date to see when that was). So yeah, I've been the newb rogue before. I learned and got better. I've now been through 3 assassin lives total, played all the way from 1 to cap, no stones used. My current build is the culmination of all of that experience.

And as I said before, I don't enjoy soloing. I have, however, solo sneaked through many of the quests where that is a viable option, just for the fun of the accomplishment.

Since your listed assassin build has you wondering how to slot an Open Lock item then it makes me wonder if you've actually played a Rogue - most of us swap in items as needed... In the old days before the multiple effects items (like the Spyglass), I would wear a Spot item, swap in a Search item (plus other boosts as needed), then swap in the Disable items and boosts. Same for Open Locks - swap in a set of gloves. There is no need to wear them during combat.

Here is the exact conversation you are referring to, quoted directly from my build thread:

Only missing seeker, threat reduction, heal amp, open lock, and doublestrike. I'm not sure how to fit any of those in and I'm open to suggestions. I don't mind not having them since I think this gear set fits in quite a bit and is missing very little, but I'd like to hear what others think.

Open lock just needs to be an item you swap in, open the lock, then swap out again. No reason to have it on all the time.

Yeah that's definitely one I don't mind not having on all the time. But some items, like Nether Grasps, have open lock and other goodies that are worth it.

And here is the comment which is currently found directly below the gear set in my build. At the time of this post the last edit of my build was May 3rd, 2014 at 11:18am, so it's not like I changed it just to quote it here.

Swap in search, disable, and open lock gear as needed and a triple positive GS weapon with full healing amp in the offhand for scroll healing.

Those "multiple effects items" you are referring to, also have several other useful effects. I don't consider the spyglass one of them, however. Mostly the stuff from the High Road. Nether Grasps, for example, have seeker 10 and diversion 20 on them, both of which are useful for an assassin. Bracers of Twisting Shade have exceptional seeker 5, blurry, and resistance 7, as well as search 20 and disable 20. These are the two items to which I was referring in the quoted discussion. The Bracers of Twisting Shade were part of my initial gear set for Hassan's Assassin and I was considering the Nether Grasps. Both items are outdated now as many of the bonuses they offer are available in higher amounts on other gear.

If you want to make an effective argument Belegdur, please bring accurate information and understand what you are critiquing first. Misquotes and misinformation do not help your credibility at all.

[Belegdur]

"This was fixed several updates ago. It is... wait for it... a non-issue."
Really??
I only came back to the game around U21. And I just changed out the enhancement last week.
Still is showing as an "Official Known Issues"
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...l-Known-Issues
The Assassin's (and Drow's) Venomed Blades enhancement is preventing sneak attacks.

At first, it would report an error message that the requirements were not met. I guess one update suppressed the message but it still would not proc. The ddowiki has a note about targets needing agro on something else might work... which defeats the purpose of solo sneaking.

Being a solo rogue is different than one in a party. Every little issue becomes more apparent.