rune arm DC increase?

[byzantinebob]

The DC of Rune Arm spells is suppsed to be 10 + (Charge Tier + 1) + (INT modifier) + (Max Charge Tier - 1) + (Evocation Feat Bonuses).

So a level 2 arti fires a rune arm as well as a 20? Was that intended? The damage formula uses Arti levels. Why not the DC?

[jakeelala]

There may still need to be some balancing of Rune Arm DC's in the future; this bug fix is the first step toward being able to do that. Thanks for the feedback!

I think the math he just showed you makes it abundantly clear that there is an objective need to further balance run arms.

In fact, you could fix this ENTIRE problem by simply making rune arm dc start at 20, not 10. Then theoretical max would be around 70, which is the high end of DC's for casters too. Which is exactly how these things should be balanced, right?

No one plays Arty's anymore, they're terrible. And this is part of the reason. Rune Arms are supposed to be a lot of their DPS, but they're just a joke now.

[nibel]

In fact, you could fix this ENTIRE problem by simply making rune arm dc start at 20, not 10. Then theoretical max would be around 70, which is the high end of DC's for casters too. Which is exactly how these things should be balanced, right?

A lot of issues with a lot of stuff is because DC progression stops at 20 (when you get access to ED). Over that, only raw power (stat) or and extra +1~3 on gear to improves them, but the monsters stats keep growing as if we had the same progression as we've been gaining on Heroic.

[patang01]

There may still need to be some balancing of Rune Arm DC's in the future; this bug fix is the first step toward being able to do that. Thanks for the feedback!

Yes please - I'd love to be able to use all kind of rune arms in EE. It's about the best way for an Arti to add some relevant DPS in higher difficulties.

[Singular]

Well this is troubling. So...evocation items don't add to the DC of rune arms? The low dc's basically insure that rune arm damage is going to be evaded or saved - so, except for those times when the mobs roll a 1, you're going to be, at best, hitting for 1/2 damage. It's probably best to avoid evadable rune arms - just go with willpower rune arms if you want to max damage.

And it makes repeater builds more and more attractive, I guess.

[droid327]

And it makes repeater builds more and more attractive, I guess.

Until they nerf the only way to get appreciable repeater damage through Adrenaline + Fury recharging with ranged crits, just because Monkchers....

[Singular]

Until they nerf the only way to get appreciable repeater damage through Adrenaline + Fury recharging with ranged crits, just because Monkchers....

Yeah...that will suck.

[G_Lich]

Blitz also still working with ranged, I doubt that will last long.

Arti just needs reworking - and the Level 20 capstone in Arcanotech needs to be as follows:

All wands/staves/scrolls now gain spellpower benefits, metamagic feats, and bonuses to caster level / DC at the expense of extra charges. - There still aren't a ton of clickies, but the war wizard's staff would see a lot more use.

Level 20 capstone in Battle Engineer = Titanic Transformation - let your imagination go nuts.

All ideas aside I trust the new devs on this, because they're working wonders with what they do work on... It's just a matter of convincing them to devote some time to artificer, a paid/earned class.

[Furelli]

Since there seems to be a consensus that rune arm DC's are still a bit lacking wouldn't a good addition be that each core in the battle engineer tree give +1 to your rune arm DC. This would therefore give a bonus which is based on class level and an +6 to dedicated Arti's.

Furelli

[CThruTheEgo]

Since there seems to be a consensus that rune arm DC's are still a bit lacking wouldn't a good addition be that each core in the battle engineer tree give +1 to your rune arm DC. This would therefore give a bonus which is based on class level and an +6 to dedicated Arti's.

Furelli

/signed

[Unsmitten]

Bump

The DC of Rune Arm spells is suppsed to be 10 + (Charge Tier + 1) + (INT modifier) + (Max Charge Tier - 1) + (Evocation Feat Bonuses). The Evocation Bonuses were not applying.

With this fix, bonuses from abilities like the Spell Focus: Evocation feat, Arcanotechnician's Evocation Focus enhancement, and the Evocation Specialist ability from the Magister destiny should all contribute to a Rune Arm's DC.

At the moment, item/augment based sources of Evocation DC bonuses do not affect the DC of Rune Arm shots.

Are rune arms getting DC from items yet?

Guessing Artificer will be the last class to get it's update, so they will continue to be lackluster for EE content until then.

[SealedInSong]

There are many rune arms which are not evadeable and do half damage on a save for times like EE, given that for the short term suddenly seeing DC70 arms isnt in the cards.

Quick question: which rune arms would these be--the ones that are no evade and then half damage on save?

[DeWind]

The one that I use about on everything is Lucid. I don't run a lot of EE and know that several of them use Knives. On EH though w/ Lucid most of my hits are purple and hardly resisted. Haven't tested it much and have several of the EE rune arms (Arching, Corruption, & Chill) but sticking w/ Lucid until I can get a Knives. Not sure if that helps but the best I can offer.

[SealedInSong]

The one that I use about on everything is Lucid. I don't run a lot of EE and know that several of them use Knives. On EH though w/ Lucid most of my hits are purple and hardly resisted. Haven't tested it much and have several of the EE rune arms (Arching, Corruption, & Chill) but sticking w/ Lucid until I can get a Knives. Not sure if that helps but the best I can offer.

Thanks DeWind!

Okay, I stopped being lazy and did a little research. If anyone sees my assessment to be incorrect, please do chime in.

Name: save type for half, damage range + damage range per arti level
Acid shot: Fort , (4-8)-(10-30) + 1-(2-10)
Cold bolts: Fort , (5-8)-(15-30) + 1-(2-8) OR +1-(4-10) depends on rune arm
Electrical blast: Reflex , (4-8)-(10-30) + 1d2-1d10
Electrical lash: Reflex , (2d4-2d12)+(2-6) + 1d2-1d10
Electrical storm: Reflex , (4-8)-(10-30) + 1d2-1d10
Exploding cannon shot: Save type not mentioned, assuming none. (4-8)-(10-30) + 1-(2-10)
Fire blast: Reflex, (4-8)-(10-30) + 1-(0-8)
Force shot: Will, (4-8)-(10-30) + 1d2-1d10
Knife shot: Reflex, (4-8)-(14-34) + 1-(2-10)

Light spirals, Fire blast...getting lazy, not listing.

SUMMARY
So basically it looks like ONLY exploding cannon shot doesn't have an explicit save, though it might. Because, Turbine.

Knives Eternal I do use at epic because it has extra goodies like the spike procs, but it actually has a save that is probably not ideal for use in epics. Thus, it's more about the imbue and extras than the blast type.

Force shot types (including Lucid Dreams as you mentioned) are probably ideal because most mobs do not relatively have inflated will saves compared to their epic fort and reflex saves.

Thus, if you have cruddy intelligence or are an arti splash, go exploding cannon shot. If you have a decent investment in arti levels and intelligence (and possibly evocation feats/twists), force shot is good.

For epic content, knives eternal will be a good choice even if you rarely fire your blast.

[CThruTheEgo]

SUMMARY
So basically it looks like ONLY exploding cannon shot doesn't have an explicit save, though it might. Because, Turbine.

Knives Eternal I do use at epic because it has extra goodies like the spike procs, but it actually has a save that is probably not ideal for use in epics. Thus, it's more about the imbue and extras than the blast type.

Force shot types (including Lucid Dreams as you mentioned) are probably ideal because most mobs do not relatively have inflated will saves compared to their epic fort and reflex saves.

Thus, if you have cruddy intelligence or are an arti splash, go exploding cannon shot. If you have a decent investment in arti levels and intelligence (and possibly evocation feats/twists), force shot is good.

For epic content, knives eternal will be a good choice even if you rarely fire your blast.

Based on my own experience of using Lucid Dreams, Archaic Device, Corruption of Nature, and Knives Eternal (those have the highest single target damage because of their 5 proc shots) as an endgame rune arm, the shot damage from Knives Eternal is the highest.

Because the rune arm DC formula is gimped, you can pretty much assume that mobs will save against it most of the time regardless of which save type is being used. Even though knives Eternal uses a reflex save check, it does not seem to be evadable. I often see the "evade" message pop up, but that is just a visual bug that appears when an enemy makes their save. The evade message also pops up when using Archaic Device, which uses a will save, and Corruption of Nature, which uses a fort save. I haven't used Lucid Dreams since that bug was introduced. They still take damage when that message pops up, so it's definitely only a visual bug.

Even when saved against a majority of the time, the shot damage is a decent amount of damage and is essentially free. Knives Eternal has the highest shot damage and is one of the main reasons to use it over the others.

Another good reason is gearing. Knives Eternal offers force spell power 150. For me, energy burst is a given on an artificer, which means you need to build for an element spell power also. Epic Noxious Embers and Epic Inferno Bracers both offer fire spell power 150. If you don't use Knives Eternal you'll want to slot force spell power elsewhere and, afaik, it's not found on an item in any significant amount for endgame, so that means using the repeater's red slot. With Knives Eternal though, you can slot a damage augment in the repeater, so there's that additional damage as well. Keep in mind, however, I'm speaking specifically about a casting/ranged focus artificer. Priorities may be different for a different kind of build.

[SealedInSong]

Based on my own experience of using Lucid Dreams, Archaic Device, Corruption of Nature, and Knives Eternal (those have the highest single target damage because of their 5 proc shots) as an endgame rune arm, the shot damage from Knives Eternal is the highest.

Because the rune arm DC formula is gimped, you can pretty much assume that mobs will save against it most of the time regardless of which save type is being used. Even though knives Eternal uses a reflex save check, it does not seem to be evadable. I often see the "evade" message pop up, but that is just a visual bug that appears when an enemy makes their save. The evade message also pops up when using Archaic Device, which uses a will save, and Corruption of Nature, which uses a fort save. I haven't used Lucid Dreams since that bug was introduced. They still take damage when that message pops up, so it's definitely only a visual bug.

(SNIP...)

Thanks for the input, it's valuable!

So basically you're saying that you still see FULL damage even when things save for half damage vs. Knives Eternal? That seems like a significant bug.

About gearing considerations, all agreed.

[KomradKillMachine]

There may still need to be some balancing of Rune Arm DC's in the future; this bug fix is the first step toward being able to do that. Thanks for the feedback!

Just remove the DC requirement altogether. BAM!

Suddenly, Artificers are fun again! Is that so hard?

[CThruTheEgo]

Thanks for the input, it's valuable!

So basically you're saying that you still see FULL damage even when things save for half damage vs. Knives Eternal? That seems like a significant bug.

About gearing considerations, all agreed.

No, I see half damage when the "evade" message pops up, which is often but not 100% of the time. If it was actually evaded, then there would be no damage taken at all. Because half damage is taken means it was simply saved against. And that evade message and half damage occurs regardless of which rune arm (and save) is being used. The bug is that it says evade, when it should just save saved, or reflex, or fort, or will, or whatever it's supposed to for a successful save.

But in my experience, all the rune arms I mentioned are saved against a majority of the time simply because the DC formula is borked, and Knives Eternal does the highest shot damage.

[QuantumFX]

Since there seems to be a consensus that rune arm DC's are still a bit lacking wouldn't a good addition be that each core in the battle engineer tree give +1 to your rune arm DC. This would therefore give a bonus which is based on class level and an +6 to dedicated Arti's.

Furelli

And replace that static 10 at the beginning of the DC calculation with “Artificer Caster level”.

[Oxarhamar]

And replace that static 10 at the beginning of the DC calculation with “Artificer Caster level”.

Rune arm damage is already limited by Artificer level no reason to render them even more useless for multi classed Artificers.


*Wouldn't change much for me as I might only use mine for
AOE breaking boxes
Light the torches in Inferno
Killing mimics stuck in the floor
Breaking some doors which can't be broken with bolts (doesn't work on all of them)

Still think some multi class might want still want to use them even at reduced damage but, this change would make them even worse.