Spellsinger and Warchanter - Build Concepts and Goals

[HatsuharuZ]

"I want be a nuking bard DPSing with spells"

said absolutely no one, ever, even after beign drunk or stoned.

Idea to add nukes to bard is as stupid as adding nuking spells for paladin or ranger.

I suspect part of the reason for that is because bards have 4 nuking spells and 3 of them are not very useful in epic levels.

They don't need to do a ton of damage, and not all at once. Look at druids, they don't "nuke" but they can do damage and CC mobs at the same time.

[Silverleafeon]

Core problems for Bards:

Lack of instant kill spells:
Consider adding Phantasmal Killer to the Bard spell list

Lack of damage spells:
Consider adding Supreme Shout or the like to the Bard spell list
1d4 sonic damage cone per caster level with possible stun/save effect
max caster level 15

Lack of dots spells
Consider adding Harmonic Pulse
Focuses the power of sonic upon the target, inflicting 1 to 2 +1 per caster level sonic damage every 2 seconds for a duration of 16 seconds. This spell can stack on the target up to 3 times, increasing the damage with each stack.
max caster level 20

Lack of AoE spells
Consider adding Mass Hold Monster to the Bard spell list

Lack of Buff spells in a "buffing class
Consider adding resist energy and jump to the Bard spell list


Doing all this brings lots to bard in general and make revision of the spellsinger class
much, much less important. You will need to only tweak in minor ways,
moving junk like flicker out.


The warchanter unfortionately needs a lot of work, but these spell changes
would help them too.


Remember when you gave the divines so much by simply adding Divine Punishment.
A few spells could totally change Bards, think about it.

[Deathdefy]

Core problems for Bards:

Lack of instant kill spells:
Consider adding Phantasmal Killer to the Bard spell list

Lack of damage spells:
Consider adding Supreme Shout or the like to the Bard spell list
1d4 sonic damage cone per caster level with possible stun/save effect
max caster level 15

Lack of dots spells
Consider adding Harmonic Pulse
Focuses the power of sonic upon the target, inflicting 1 to 2 +1 per caster level sonic damage every 2 seconds for a duration of 16 seconds. This spell can stack on the target up to 3 times, increasing the damage with each stack.
max caster level 20

Lack of AoE spells
Consider adding Mass Hold Monster to the Bard spell list

Lack of Buff spells in a "buffing class
Consider adding resist energy and jump to the Bard spell list


Doing all this brings lots to bard in general and make revision of the spellsinger class
much, much less important. You will need to only tweak in minor ways,
moving junk like flicker out.


The warchanter unfortionately needs a lot of work, but these spell changes
would help them too.


Remember when you gave the divines so much by simply adding Divine Punishment.
A few spells could totally change Bards, think about it.

I completely agree with all of this.

I'd also love to see Phantasmal Killer as an SLA in addition to being in the spellbook as an option.

I'm unsure if that is thematic or balanced for a bard tree (I genuinely think it would be, but can see the counter-arguments), but I can guarantee it's enjoyable for players.

[Silverleafeon]

I suspect part of the reason for that is because bards have 4 nuking spells and 3 of them are not very useful in epic levels.

They don't need to do a ton of damage, and not all at once. Look at druids, they don't "nuke" but they can do damage and CC mobs at the same time.

+1

When bards cannot kill the creatures they CC,
when bards cannot solo fight an epic hard monster,
when bard casters start swinging weapons,
the Devs need to think about Bard love.



Look at their nuking spells:

Believe it or not this is the best one:

Sonic Blast
Level 1
Description:
Blasts an enemy with loud high-pitched sounds, dealing 1d2+2 sonic damage plus 1d2+2 sonic damage per 2 caster levels. (Maximum sonic damage 5d2+10.) The target must make a successful Will save to avoid be dazed for 2 to 6 seconds, or until they take damage. This spell has double range.


And how about this one:

Shout
Description:
Emits an ear-splitting yell that does 5d3+15 sonic damage to all targets in its path. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage.


Compare to this:

Cone of cold
Description:
Cone of cold creates an area of extreme cold, originating at your hand and extending outward in a large cone. It drains heat, dealing 1d3+3 points of cold damage per caster level. Maximum damage 15d3+45 at caster level 15. A successful Reflex save reduces the damage by half.


Notice any difference.
Lack of scaling on both Shout spells!

Greater Shout
Emits an ear-splitting yell that deafens and deals 5d6+30 sonic damage and dazes the targets in its path for 6 seconds. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage and negates the Daze effect.



Granting Sonic Blast, Shout, and Greater Shout as SLAs to Spellsinger would help
as they would get free metamagics.


Notice here:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Season%27s_Herald_enhancements
Six SLAs inside Season's Herald:
Sunburst, Storm of Vengence, Word of Balance, Produce Flame, Creeping Cold, Call Lightning.


But that only tries to fix the problem with a patch instead of addressing it directly:
the Bard spell list does not hold up well at levels 17 and up.

[Silverleafeon]

opsay ~ removing as posted to wrong area

[Silverleafeon]

The much longed for time for bard love is here.

SHOUT OUT folks, let em know what you want,
before the train moves on...

[Silverleafeon]

opsay

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

One across the board change:

Medley: One song does it ALL! All available bard songs buffages are available in one (slightly longer) song. Naturally, you can still sing each song independently. A simplified, well laid out pop up window where you can check off who gets each of the individual buffs would be sufficient. It would be far more prudent and take far less time than to sing each of the single buffs on each specific party members each time, like we have to do now.

How many times have we not cast our beneficial solo songs solely because we knew people weren't just gonna stand around twiddling their thumbs waiting for you to get out every solo buff?

[Silverleafeon]

One across the board change:

Medley: One song does it ALL! All available bard songs buffages are available in one (slightly longer) song. Naturally, you can still sing each song independently. A simplified, well laid out pop up window where you can check off who gets each of the individual buffs would be sufficient. It would be far more prudent and take far less time than to sing each of the single buffs on each specific party members each time, like we have to do now.

How many times have we not cast our beneficial solo songs solely because we knew people weren't just gonna stand around twiddling their thumbs waiting for you to get out every solo buff?

+1

[unbongwah]

Medley: One song does it ALL! All available bard songs buffages are available in one (slightly longer) song. Naturally, you can still sing each song independently.

While I'm all in favor of streamlining bard songs, I'm not convinced this is the best way. I think it would be better to cut down on the number of different bardsongs by stacking some of them together; and making Inspiring Echoes a core enhancement (probably in SS) rather than only available on eElyd Edge.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

While I'm all in favor of streamlining bard songs, I'm not convinced this is the best way. I think it would be better to cut down on the number of different bardsongs by stacking some of them together; and making Inspiring Echoes a core enhancement (probably in SS) rather than only available on eElyd Edge.

Either way.. would require drastic changes. I believe its just what we need, a DRASTIC change in the way buffs are delivered via a bard to the party.

I'd be down to seeing Inspiring Echoes redesigned as a weapon enchantment song that a bard can grant to party members wielding a melee or ranged weapon Again, its got to be included in the Medley, not just another round of individual songs.

Alternatively, I'd like to see more bard specific weapons that have this trait, and other bard specific abilities!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

While it is true that "good play" is the primary indicator of success on a bard, spell versatility has been systematically handicapped for years. So many players that at one time considered their crowd control specced bard their favorite toon, have long wiped/rerolled/TRed, and some have long left playing DDO entirely. The reason so few bards choose to use their CC effectively and so many simply build towards a melee blueprint (read: DPS as their #1 forte), is because the paltry spell options are not exciting, not flexible, old as Moses, and in dire need of an overhaul. The fix to this one devs I feel must include NEW spells and spell improvements that can be implemented.

We need spells that look attractive and are usefull to all players at all levels of play. And they need to affect the game mechanics in such a way that the spells are effective regardless which way you build your bard. VERSATILITY.


Here are some of my favorite spells that I've asked for since game launch..

Balagarn's iron horn - The caster creates a deep, resonant vibration that shakes all creatures in the area of effect from their feet if they fail a strength check (as if the caster had a strength of 20). Every creature that falls will be knocked down for one round.

Clarity - This spell removes the effects of daze, sleep, confusion, stun, and charm, and protects against all mind-affecting effects until it expires. For every effect removed by the spell, the target creature sustains 1 point of negative energy damage. Thanks to the devs for giving us this!

Keen edge - Adds the keen property to the targeted slashing melee weapon, increasing its critical threat range.

Improved invisibility - The target creature becomes invisible and impossible to detect using normal vision. After attacking or casting spells the target creature will become partially visible and detectable by enemies, but still retain a 50% cover bonus.

Gust of wind - This spell creates a blast of air that knocks down any creatures failing their saving throws. It is also powerful enough to disperse any cloudlike area of effect spells (such as cloudkill) that are in the path of the wind gust.

Greater magic weapon - You empower the touched weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus per 3 caster levels (maximum of +5). You can either directly target the weapon you want to cast this spell on, or you can target a creature, affecting the creature's main hand weapon.

Cloud of bewilderment - The caster blows forth a cloud of noxious air. Enemies in the area of effect are stunned and blinded for 1d6 rounds.

Dirge - (Song, AoE effect, Cooldown: 6 seconds) Expend a song to produce a haunting funeral march. You deal 10d[4/6/8] Negative damage and 10d[8/10/12] Sonic damage every 3 seconds for 18 seconds (fort save for half). In addition, enemies may be slowed by 5% if they fail their fort save. Duration 18 seconds (modified by enhancements that increase song duration). -- THANKS to the dev team for giving us this one! --- BOOST: I would effectively alter this to Sonic damage every 1 second for 18 seconds (fort save for half).

Invisibility sphere - The caster brings into being a zone of invisibility that travels with him for the duration of the spell. All allies within the spell's area of effect are rendered invisible, but not to each other. Those that leave the sphere are visible once more.

Wounding whispers - The caster is surrounded with whispers that injure any creature that hits the caster for 1d6+1/level points of sonic damage.

Ethereal visage - The caster is surrounded by a ghostly nimbus of light that grants damage reduction 20/+3, prevents all spells of level 2 or lower from affecting the caster and provides a 25% concealment bonus.

Energy buffer - The caster gains damage resistance 40/- against all elemental forms of damage. The spell ends after absorbing 60 points of damage from any single elemental type. This spell stacks with — and is applied after — feat-based sources of damage resistance.

Healing circle - All friendly creatures within the area of effect are healed for 1d8 hit points, +1 points per caster level up to a maximum of +20. Healing spells have a reverse effect when used on undead, harming instead of healing them.

Tasha's hideous laughter - If the target fails their saving throw they will begin laughing hysterically. They will be unable to defend themselves until the spell wears off. A creature whose racial type is different from the caster's gains a +4 bonus on its saving throw because humor doesn't 'translate' well.

I'd like to see these spells worked into the equation for us, since some of these actually would be fun to use (especially if implemented well) and they are ALL actual D&D spells! Hey, if Bioware figured how to make these work in Neverwinter Nights, I know Turbine could pull them off...


Here's the other bard spells.... Can you find the spells we DON'T have? Some of these could be fun as well...

D&D Bard Spells

0-Level Bard Spells (Cantrips)

• Dancing Lights: Creates torches or other lights.
• Daze: Humanoid creature of 4 HD or less loses next action.
• Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
• Flare: Dazzles one creature (-1 on attack rolls).
• Ghost Sound: Figment sounds.
• Know Direction: You discern north.
• Light: Object shines like a torch.
• Lullaby: Makes subject drowsy; -5 on Spot and Listen checks, -2 on Will saves against sleep.
• Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.
• Mending: Makes minor repairs on an object.
• Message: Whispered conversation at distance.
• Open/Close: Opens or closes small or light things.
• Prestidigitation: Performs minor tricks.
• Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
• Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
• Summon Instrument: Summons one instrument of the caster’s choice.

1st-Level Bard Spells

• Alarm: Wards an area for 2 hours/level.
• Animate Rope: Makes a rope move at your command.
• Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
• Charm Person: Makes one person your friend.
• Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
• Confusion, Lesser: One creature is confused for 1 round.
• Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
• Detect Secret Doors: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
• Disguise Self: Changes your appearance.
• Erase: Mundane or magical writing vanishes.
• Expeditious Retreat: Your speed increases by 30 ft.
• Feather Fall: Objects or creatures fall slowly.
• Grease: Makes 10-ft. square or one object slippery.
• Hideous Laughter: Subject loses actions for 1 round/ level.
• Hypnotism: Fascinates 2d4 HD of creatures.
• Identify M: Determines properties of magic item.
• Magic Mouth M: Speaks once when triggered.
• Magic Aura: Alters object’s magic aura.
• Obscure Object: Masks object against scrying.
• Remove Fear: Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per four levels.
• Silent Image: Creates minor illusion of your design.
• Sleep: Puts 4 HD of creatures into magical slumber.
• Summon Monster I: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
• Undetectable Alignment: Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
• Unseen Servant: Invisible force obeys your commands.
• Ventriloquism: Throws voice for 1 min./level.

2nd-Level Bard Spells

• Alter Self: Assume form of a similar creature.
• Animal Messenger: Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place.
• Animal Trance: Fascinates 2d6 HD of animals.
• Blindness/Deafness: Makes subject blind or deaf.
• Blur: Attacks miss subject 20% of the time.
• Calm Emotions: Calms creatures, negating emotion effects.
• Cat’s Grace: Subject gains +4 to Dex for 1 min./level.
• Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
• Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
• Daze Monster: Living creature of 6 HD or less loses next action.
• Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/ level.
• Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts.
• Eagle’s Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
• Enthrall: Captivates all within 100 ft. + 10 ft./level.
• Fox’s Cunning: Subject gains +4 to Int for 1 min./level.
• Glitterdust: Blinds creatures, outlines invisible creatures.
• Heroism: Gives +2 on attack rolls, saves, skill checks.
• Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
• Hypnotic Pattern: Fascinates (2d4 + level) HD of creatures.
• Invisibility: Subject is invisible for 1 min./level or until it attacks.
• Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
• Minor Image: As silent image, plus some sound.
• Mirror Image: Creates decoy duplicates of you (1d4 +1 per three levels, max 8).
• Misdirection: Misleads divinations for one creature or object.
• Pyrotechnics: Turns fire into blinding light or choking smoke.
• Rage: Gives +2 to Str and Con, +1 on Will saves, -2 to AC.
• Scare: Panics creatures of less than 6 HD.
• Shatter: Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
• Silence: Negates sound in 20-ft. radius.
• Sound Burst: Deals 1d8 sonic damage to subjects; may stun them.
• Suggestion: Compels subject to follow stated course of action.
• Summon Monster II: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
• Summon Swarm: Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.
• Tongues: Speak any language.
• Whispering Wind: Sends a short message 1 mile/level.

3rd-Level Bard Spells

• Blink: You randomly vanish and reappear for 1 round/level.
• Charm Monster: Makes monster believe it is your ally.
• Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Hear or see at a distance for 1 min./level.
• Confusion: Subjects behave oddly for 1 round/level.
• Crushing Despair: Subjects take -2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks.
• Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
• Daylight: 60-ft. radius of bright light.
• Deep Slumber: Puts 10 HD of creatures to sleep.
• Dispel Magic: Cancels magical spells and effects.
• Displacement: Attacks miss subject 50%.
• Fear: Subjects within cone flee for 1 round/level.
• Gaseous Form: Subject becomes insubstantial and can fly slowly.
• Geas, Lesser: Commands subject of 7 HD or less.
• Glibness: You gain +30 bonus on Bluff checks, and your lies can escape magical discernment.
• Good Hope: Subjects gain +2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks.
• Haste: One creature/level moves faster, +1 on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves.
• Illusory Script M: Only intended reader can decipher.
• Invisibility Sphere: Makes everyone within 10 ft. invisible.
• Major Image: As silent image, plus sound, smell and thermal effects.
• Phantom Steed: Magic horse appears for 1 hour/level.
• Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse.
• Scrying F: Spies on subject from a distance.
• Sculpt Sound: Creates new sounds or changes existing ones.
• Secret Page: Changes one page to hide its real content.
• See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
• Sepia Snake Sigil M: Creates text symbol that immobilizes reader.
• Slow: One subject/level takes only one action/round, -1 to AC, reflex saves, and attack rolls.
• Speak with Animals: You can communicate with animals.
• Summon Monster III: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
• Tiny Hut: Creates shelter for ten creatures.

4th-Level Bard Spells

• Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
• Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
• Detect Scrying: Alerts you of magical eavesdropping.
• Dimension Door: Teleports you short distance.
• Dominate Person: Controls humanoid telepathically.
• Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments.
• Hallucinatory Terrain: Makes one type of terrain appear like another (field into forest, or the like).
• Hold Monster: As hold person, but any creature.
• Invisibility, Greater: As invisibility, but subject can attack and stay invisible.
• Legend Lore M F: Lets you learn tales about a person, place, or thing.
• Locate Creature: Indicates direction to familiar creature.
• Modify Memory: Changes 5 minutes of subject’s memories.
• Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
• Rainbow Pattern: Lights fascinate 24 HD of creatures.
• Repel Vermin: Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
• Secure Shelter: Creates sturdy cottage.
• Shadow Conjuration: Mimics conjuring below 4th level, but only 20% real.
• Shout: Deafens all within cone and deals 5d6 sonic damage.
• Speak with Plants: You can talk to normal plants and plant creatures.
• Summon Monster IV: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
• Zone of Silence: Keeps eavesdroppers from overhearing conversations.

5th-Level Bard Spells

• Cure Light Wounds, Mass: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
• Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but +20 on check.
• Dream: Sends message to anyone sleeping.
• False Vision M: Fools scrying with an illusion.
• Heroism, Greater: Gives +4 bonus on attack rolls, saves, skill checks; immunity to fear; temporary hp.
• Mind Fog: Subjects in fog get -10 to Wis and Will checks.
• Mirage Arcana: As hallucinatory terrain, plus structures.
• Mislead: Turns you invisible and creates illusory double.
• Nightmare: Sends vision dealing 1d10 damage, fatigue.
• Persistent Image: As major image, but no concentration required.
• Seeming: Changes appearance of one person per two levels.
• Shadow Evocation: Mimics evocation of lower than 5th level, but only 20% real.
• Shadow Walk: Step into shadow to travel rapidly.
• Song of Discord: Forces targets to attack each other.
• Suggestion, Mass: As suggestion, plus one subject/level.
• Summon Monster V: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.

6th-Level Bard Spells

• Analyze Dweomer F: Reveals magical aspects of subject.
• Animate Objects: Objects attack your foes.
• Cat’s Grace, Mass: As cat’s grace, affects one subject/level.
• Charm Monster, Mass: As charm monster, but all within 30 ft.
• Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
• Eagle’s Splendor, Mass: As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level.
• Eyebite: Target becomes panicked, sickened, and comatose.
• Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location.
• Fox’s Cunning, Mass: As fox’s cunning, affects one subject/level.
• Geas/Quest: As lesser geas, plus it affects any creature.
• Heroes’ Feast: Food for one creature/level cures and grants combat bonuses.
• Irresistible Dance: Forces subject to dance.
• Permanent Image: Includes sight, sound, and smell.
• Programmed Image M: As major image, plus triggered by event.
• Project Image: Illusory double can talk and cast spells.
• Scrying, Greater: As scrying, but faster and longer.
• Shout, Greater: Devastating yell deals 10d6 sonic damage; stuns creatures, damages objects.
• Summon Monster VI: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
• Sympathetic Vibration: Deals 2d10 damage/round to freestanding structure.
• Veil: Changes appearance of group of creatures.

Disregarding spells that are obviously designed and limited in scope to pen & paper, there's some potentially juicy options here currently not in game.

Lastly:

** Re-address crowd control. Fact is, some people actually enjoy the spellcaster side of being a bard.

The one spell that truly deserves a re-evaluation is Otto's Irresistible Dance. Either its Irresistible, or its not. Here's what the spell has done in every iteration of D&D and D&D computer game since its incarnation:

The subject feels an undeniable urge to dance and begins doing so, complete with foot shuffling and tapping. The spell effect makes it impossible for the subject to do anything other than caper and prance in place. The effect imposes a -4 penalty to Armor Class and a -10 penalty on Reflex saves, and it negates any AC bonus granted by a shield the target holds. The dancing subject provokes attacks of opportunity each round on its turn.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

On the damage side of the spectrum, I love some of the recommendations being offered in this thread. Basically we need ILLUSION spells, insta kill PK. We need DOT, I'd recommend Sympathetic Vibration: Deal damage to freestanding structures that do damage to nearby creatures. Works anywhere indoors, but only near structures (buildings, trees etc) outdoors.

Warchanters could benefit from a juiced up DDO version of Eyebite. It should be usable on all mobs, including red names, to a lesser extent of course....

[Seikojin]

One across the board change:

Medley: One song does it ALL! All available bard songs buffages are available in one (slightly longer) song. Naturally, you can still sing each song independently. A simplified, well laid out pop up window where you can check off who gets each of the individual buffs would be sufficient. It would be far more prudent and take far less time than to sing each of the single buffs on each specific party members each time, like we have to do now.

How many times have we not cast our beneficial solo songs solely because we knew people weren't just gonna stand around twiddling their thumbs waiting for you to get out every solo buff?

As much as I would like this, I think if they went to do this, it should take multiple songs out when used. Also bards got their movement un-nerfed when singing, so that helped a ton. They could increase the aoe for the songs to make it work further since everyone is many-hasted these days.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

As much as I would like this, I think if they went to do this, it should take multiple songs out when used.

You mean like only a certain number of songs can be sung per medley? Naah, one song does it all is my recommendation! Customizable by the bard, easily alter-able per party, and/or per situation.

[unbongwah]

Historically, bard spells have been divided into four categories: heals, buffs, debuffs, and CC. I don't think they really need DPS spells; they need more relevant debuffs and an easier time hitting reasonable DCs & Spell Pen for CC, IMHO.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Historically, bard spells have been divided into four categories: heals, buffs, debuffs, and CC. I don't think they really need DPS spells; they need more relevant debuffs and an easier time hitting reasonable DCs for CC, IMHO.

I'm not a big fan of dps spells for bards, especially of the ray like spell variety, however there has long been dps spells in the bard spellbooks. Enough people want damage options -- I believe we should get it, but leave it up to those who want to build it in to their builds. However in no way should we be going down Sorc/Wizard alley...

[khremlajn]

I'm not a big fan of dps spells for bards, especially of the ray like spell variety, however there has long been dps spells in the bard spellbooks. Enough people want damage options -- I believe we should get it, but leave it up to thosewho want to build it in to their builds. However in no way should we be going down Soc/Wizard alley...

I fear we are going to sorc/wizz alley...
Since they want to move heals from spellsinger to warchanter, there is no other way to fill the gap, than to give dps spells...

Id like to know, if getting strong debuffs is an option, or there is no dev avaiable to implement that.

[katz]

...
when bards cannot solo fight an epic hard monster...

not to be rude, but 2 of my 4 bards have no trouble killing eHard mobs (and one of those kills EE mobs without too much trouble), and one more just lets the charmed mobs do the dirty work for her. the fourth bard isn't epic yet.

but i digress


i had a thought last night, and i couldn't post it till now... crappy internet >.>

spellsinger.

spell.... singer.....

sings... spells....


give SS some spells.. like mass hold (which people have been asking for for AGES)... AS SONGS. with a perform based DC. viola, DC caster problem? GONE. they don't need heavy nukes, they aren't wizards and sorcerers, but i can see sonic dots, song of sleep/hypnotism/hold/charm/mist (hinders movement like web?) etc... fast sing like song of capering/siren's song. buff the **** out of sustaining song... make it scale with level AND make use of positive spellpower and/or perform skill... it's pretty sad as is, especially when people are running around with 1000+ HP.. make it more like, oh, say, a druids mass vigor or mass regeneration even.

[khremlajn]

Oh yeah dont forget about perform skill. It should have other use than beeing prereq to few songs.

Now it gives dc for fascinate/enthrallment and sonic spellpower.
-No sonic spells worth applying more power to
-dc of fascinate is already so high, that it is not worth to have realy high perform skill

I understand that with sonic spells usability of perform might change, but it should give more.

How about every song(both buffing and not) effectiveness beeing affected by it? And by that I dont mean duration. It would be fantastic if for example inspire courage and spellsong vigor scaled both to bard lvl and his perform skill.