Punch Drunk Love! 3D-17M and Coyote, The Trickster God 2D-18M - *Wolf Form* Builds

[savingsoul]

I'm having so much fun with these builds!

Comments and criticisms greatly welcomed—especially informed advice.

Warning: these builds assume that twf works with animal forms, and that may change in the future. I have mapped them out only for heroic questing, and have recommended them only for leveling to generate a past life. This is the kind of love that might not last.

I have no qualms about exploiting this feature even though it is NWI because I've always thought wolf form should have access to either natural fighting or twf. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...fighting-feats Perhaps they should have simply made twf apply to animal forms in they way they apply to monks rather than creating natural fighting feats, because both monks and animals are considered unarmed anyway. They could then have compensated for differences in strength for druid melee by tweaking enhancements. That's probably not what will happen though. They will probably just make it so twf does not apply to animal forms, because that is easier from a development perspective. I can only hope and pray that they give access to natural fighting feats for characters with only two levels of druid in exchange for that. If they do drop twf or do not allow access to natural fighting at 2D, then the second build 3D/17M Punch Drunk Love is still worth considering, because it allows you to tap into great enhancements from the druid class (I list these benefits in the notes below) even without wolf form.

When I first posted about Coyote, I was hoping some people more experienced with pure or nearly pure monk builds would come to the defense of monks, but alas, most people who responded dismissed them.

Please, (pure or nearly pure) monks, I'm calling you out! Come to the defense of monks!

I have no doubt that the winter wolf will outperform the wolf in terms of pure melee dps. I've tinkered and played quite a bit with druid melee builds, including 9D/9M/2F. However, I think that angle, though a valid one, is not the only one. There's got to be something keeping people playing pure or nearly pure monks that keeps them from playing winter wolf multi-classes. Whatever that is, one will get most or all of those benefits by taking merely two or three levels of druid. Sure, you get a monk life if you play 8-9D/9-12M/0-2Whatever, but you don't *really* get to experience or enjoy what playing a monk is like at the higher levels.

Besides, if the melee damage angle were the only angle, then everyone would be playing the highest melee damage build no matter what it is. Booooring. I hate having to repeat this obvious point too over and over again in the forums, but many people suffer from that kind of myopia--largely because dps and kills are measurable and other benefits are not. It's the old lesson in wisdom on what is seen and what is unseen.

Drawing on my limited experience so far, there clearly are nice perks to having higher monk levels on a dark monk. Since the enhancement pass, if you multiclass at all on a dark monk and are not using short swords, the only reason to go dark monk is for either (a) the dark finishers or (b) touch of death. They rely on monk levels.

Coyote has nearly unfailing success with unbalancing strikes (for single target cc/bluff/SA) and flash bangs (for AOE cc/daze/blindness/SA), which provide cc and increase sneak attack damage. Quivering palm and touch of death are also effective. According to many, quivering palm has been nerfed and is therefore somehow useless, but I have nothing to compare it to and it works pretty well on Coyote. He also has success with finishing moves . . .

Of course, higher monk levels increase the effectiveness of your finishing moves. Also, your basic Fist of Darkness attack has a neat little shaken effect that depends on monk levels, and since you always use this for your dark finishers, it is a nice to have. I can understand passing up on normal ki finishers, like fire/fire/fire or something like that, because they are tedious to generate due to the cooldowns, but I have figured out a way to generate dark finishers other than touch of despair with *no* wait for cooldowns. More on that later.

Here is the first variation of the build. It's interesting, because after playing this character I've come to realize that the originally posted build just needed a few tweaks in the enhancements. I've come full circle (though I discovered the great benefits of 3D/17M along the way). It's true that the henshin mystic spell enhancements for the higher levels do not scale well, and the higher ninja spy enhancements, taken alone, are not that impressive either, but a hybrid of the lower level enhancements of mystic and ninja on a higher level monk seems quite awesome. I also have another powerful set of enhancements that takes advantage of all three trees, mystic, spy, and shintao that is great for quickly generating dark finishers. More on that later.

Losses from taking 2 levels of Druid vs. Pure Monk: .5[1d6] (unarmed attacks), 3AC, perfect self, perfect slow fall, shining star (cha based). One major drawback I've discovered so far is that animal form and abundant step are incompatible. You also lose some of the level 20 enhancements, but there aren't enough points for them in this case anyway with this Ninja Spy/Henshin Mystic hybrid.

Gains from taking 2 levels of Druid: +30% base attack speed, crit on 19-20 rather than merely 20, piercing and slashing damage with unarmed strike bonuses, huge and lasting doublestrike boost, vengeful warrior (passive increase to crit dmg before multipliers), takedown (trip using wis mod), Ram's might (+3 dmg), +3 to attack when flanking, +1d6 sneak attack, +1 base melee damage, beastly nature (+3 insight bonus to reflex and fortitude saves for -2 to wis save), and mainly fun playing as a plain wolf at any level.

I've been trying out enhancement variations on a Halfling version of Coyote at level 20. I've included two sets that have worked well for me, but there are of course other possibilities. I've learned that the nature's warrior enhancements are hard to pass up on in any case.
[EDIT: See post #7 for my latest optimized set]

Here is Coyote:

Coyote - The Trickster God 2D-18M
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Elf Female
(18 Monk \ 2 Druid) 
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 301 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 15
Will: 21

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    16
Dexterity            16                    19
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom               16                    25
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Druid)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Call Wolf Companion
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Druidic Oath
Feat: (Automatic) Druidic Spontaneous Casting
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Mixed Heritage
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Social Graces (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Scimitar
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
Spell (1): Charm Animal
Spell (1): Entangle
Spell (1): Faerie Fire
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Lesser Vigor
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Magic Fang
Spell (1): Maul
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Pass Without Trace
Spell (1): Produce Flame
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Shillelagh
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Takedown


Level 2 (Druid)
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Wolf
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Goodberry
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) AC Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Handaxe
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Air
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Fire
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Earth
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Water
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Meditation


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Harmonious Balance (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Inevitable Dominion (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Still Mind


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Magic
Feat: (Automatic) Slow Fall


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Purity of Body


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Adept of Forms


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Wholeness of Body


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Evasion


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Curse of the Void
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Lawful
Feat: (Automatic) Moment of Clarity


Level 13 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Diamond Body


Level 14 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Abundant Step
Feat: (Automatic) Master of Forms


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Precision
Feat: (Automatic) Diamond Soul


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 17 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Quivering Palm


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Adamantine


Level 19 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Timeless Body


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Automatic) Grandmaster of Forms
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Half-Elven Versatile Nature (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Adaptability: Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Greater Adaptability: Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Sly Flourish (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Dilettante: Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Nature's Warrior (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Bestial Nature (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Bestial Nature (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Bestial Nature (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Athletic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Riddle of Fire (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Way of the Faithful Hound (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Unbalancing Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Embrace the Void (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Embrace the Void (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Poisoned Darts (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Diversion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wave of Despair (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Impending Doom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Poisoned Soul (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Poison Exploit (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Touch of Death (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)

Here is the alternative set of enhancements. I figured many people would cry foul if I dropped touch of death, so I've started with suggesting the enhancements above, which include it, but touch of death is kind of costly in terms of ki and enhancement points and only focuses on one target anyway. I've dropped it in this alternative set.

The upshot is that this set of enhancements has three special elemental attacks (of your choice), and you can generate the three dark finishers associated with them nearly instantaneously (without any cooldowns getting in the way). I'll explain.

The special elemental attacks, like unbalancing strike, are on separate cooldowns from the normal elemental attacks, like flowing water strike. This means that--with 30 ki--you can do the sequence [unbalancing strike]/[fist of darkness]/[flowing water strike]/[freezing the lifeblood] without any cooldowns getting in the way. The special elemental strikes are all quite powerful, so why not take three, using henshin, ninja, and shintao, and get nearly instantaneous access to three dark finishers of your choice? That's what I did.

Well, the interesting thing about this set of enhancements is that people with lower monk levels can use it too, but may have to make compromises. For example, you can take fists of iron, eagle claw, and knock on the sky, and then just spam them as much as possible like you probably do on the normal elemental attacks (without using dark finishers, which of course I assume have too low of dc's if you multiclass too deeply on a monk). I've incorporated this insight into my 2F/9D/9M build, but I had to make some small compromises. I'll post my 2F/9D/9M build later; I'm reconsidering some things for the ddo update.

Enhancement: Half-Elf - Half-Elven Versatile Nature (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Adaptability: Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Greater Adaptability: Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Sly Flourish (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Dilettante: Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Nature's Warrior (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Bestial Nature (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Bestial Nature (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Bestial Nature (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Athletic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Riddle of Fire (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wave of Despair (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Knock on the Sky (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Crippling Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)


Here is the second variation of the build, which I call Punch Drunk Love for several reasons. It uses 3 levels of druid rather than 2.

Losses from taking 3 levels of Druid vs. Pure Monk: .5[1d6](unarmed attacks), 3AC, perfect self, perfect slow fall, shining star (cha based). One major drawback I've discovered so far is that animal form and abundant step are incompatible. You also lose some of the level 18-20 monk enhancements.

Gains from taking 3 levels of Druid: +30% base attack speed (scalable), +4 to base dmg, crit on 19-20 rather than merely 20, piercing and slashing damage with unarmed strike bonuses, takedown (trip using wis mod), Ram's might (+3 dmg), +3 to attack when flanking, vengeful hunter (passive boost to crit dmg before multipliers), fatal harrier! (stackable, scalable passive boost to attack speed), +2d6 sneak attack, and mainly fun playing as a plain wolf at any level.

This build might also work well as a dwarf using the tactics enhancements for takedown, unbalancing strike, and quivering palm. I have a level 15 helf version currently going with great results so far; I'll keep you posted on how it goes.

Here is Punch Drunk Love:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Punch Drunk Love 3D-17M
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Elf Male
(17 Monk \ 3 Druid) 
Hit Points: 280
Spell Points: 296 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 15
Will: 17

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    16
Dexterity            16                    19
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom               14                    22
Charisma              8                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7

Level 1 (Druid)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Call Wolf Companion
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Druidic Oath
Feat: (Automatic) Druidic Spontaneous Casting
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Mixed Heritage
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Social Graces (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Scimitar
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
Spell (1): Charm Animal
Spell (1): Entangle
Spell (1): Faerie Fire
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Lesser Vigor
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Magic Fang
Spell (1): Maul
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Pass Without Trace
Spell (1): Produce Flame
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Shillelagh
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Takedown


Level 2 (Druid)
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Wolf
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Goodberry
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 3 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Spell (2): Align Fang
Spell (2): Animal Trance
Spell (2): Barkskin
Spell (2): Bear's Endurance
Spell (2): Bull's Strength
Spell (2): Cat's Grace
Spell (2): Creeping Cold
Spell (2): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (2): Eagle's Splendor
Spell (2): Fire Trap
Spell (2): Flame Blade
Spell (2): Flaming Sphere
Spell (2): Fog Cloud
Spell (2): Fox's Cunning
Spell (2): Gust of Wind
Spell (2): Hold Animal
Spell (2): Lesser Restoration
Spell (2): Owl's Wisdom
Spell (2): Pack Presence
Spell (2): Resist Energy
Spell (2): Roar
Spell (2): Splinterbolt
Spell (2): Summon Nature's Ally II


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) AC Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Handaxe
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Air
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Fire
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Earth
Feat: (Automatic) The Way of Water
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Meditation


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Harmonious Balance (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Inevitable Dominion (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Still Mind


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Magic
Feat: (Automatic) Slow Fall


Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Purity of Body


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Precision
Feat: (Automatic) Adept of Forms


Level 10 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Wholeness of Body


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Evasion


Level 13 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Curse of the Void
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Lawful
Feat: (Automatic) Moment of Clarity


Level 14 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Diamond Body


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Abundant Step
Feat: (Automatic) Master of Forms


Level 16 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Diamond Soul


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Grandmaster of Forms
Feat: (Automatic) Quivering Palm


Level 19 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Adamantine


Level 20 (Monk)
Feat: (Automatic) Timeless Body
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Half-Elven Versatile Nature (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Adaptability: Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Greater Adaptability: Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Versatility: Attack Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Sly Flourish (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Dilettante: Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Nature's Warrior (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Athletic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Flight (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Flight (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Flight (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fight (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fight (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fight (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fatal Harrier (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fatal Harrier (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fatal Harrier (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Riddle of Fire (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Unbalancing Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wave of Despair (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Knock on the Sky (Rank 1)

Notes on playing these builds:
[notes to self, which others may find obvious, and still others may find useful]
*You have unlimited uses of takedown because it only uses 3 sp, and echoes of power generates sp more quickly than you can consume them.
*Takedown, which produces +2[w] and a possible trip based on the wis mod, and which has a brief cool-down time, does not interrupt your chain toward a finishing move or cost any ki, and neither do cleave, greater cleave. You can use these attacks while you are waiting for the next attack in your chain to become available.
*Stunning fist (15ki), flash bang (20ki), and quivering palm (30ki) cost ki, but they do not interrupt your attack chain, you can use them as well between attacks in a finisher.
*You can always pop out of wolf form if you prefer, for blunt dmg and abundant step [or whatever other reason], and fatal harrier(!), vengeful hunter, the double-strike boost, dodge boost, ram's might, and bestial nature will all still apply.
*With the extra counts of meditation provided by the henshin mystic tree, diversion is a more viable option (especially if you solo). It is costly in terms of ki, but it applies to several enemies rather than merely one over a long period of time (as opposed to, for example, touch of death, which has equal cost and no lasting effect on other enemies).
*Don't overlook fire stance. I've certainly warmed up to it, though I've found all of the stances useful. Fire stance generates an incredible amount of ki due to the attack & speed of these builds, though you lose 2 points of wisdom from it (-1 dc or -3 vs ocean stance); you also can lose some ac and saves vs ocean stance. You'll suffer more damage. If none of your many attacks are effective, then of course you can switch to ocean stance for higher wisdom (+2 to dc's in grandmaster version or +3 dc's vs fire stance).
*Takedown (balance check), unbalancing strike (reflex save), and stunning fist (fortitude save) provide a nice variety of single target tactics.

(I apologize for starting a new thread for these builds, but when I tried to post the Punch Drunk Love build in the OP of the Coyote thread, it kept generating errors; however, it worked when I previewed posting it on a new thread, hence the new thread.)

[savingsoul]

Wolf vs winter wolf has the same DPS drawbacks as always: d6 19-20 x2 vs d10 19-20 x3. Even if you're willing to sacrifice Natural Fighting feats, what are you gaining from the extra monk lvls which is more important than that?

After playing these builds a bit, I have a clearer answer to this question: you actually get to play like a monk.

I have no doubt that the winter wolf will outperform the wolf in terms of pure melee dps. I've tinkered and played quite a bit with druid melee builds, including 9D/9M/2F. However, I think that angle, though a valid one, is not the only one. There's got to be something keeping people playing pure or nearly pure monks that keeps them from playing winter wolf multi-classes. Whatever that is, one will get most or all of those benefits by taking merely two or three levels of druid. The main point is that these builds are only giving up two or three levels of monk. That's what I'm talking about. What is that? I'm thinking that the main benefit of taking merely 2-3D wolf is that you get to actually play in the style of a monk. Sure, you get a monk life if you play 8-9D/9-12M/0-2Whatever, but you don't *really* get to experience or enjoy what playing a monk is like at the higher levels. I apologize for being redundant if you get my point, but if you get my point then you will appreciate the redundancy.

Besides, if the melee damage angle were the only angle, then everyone would be playing the highest melee damage build no matter what it is. Booooring. I hate having to repeat this obvious point too over and over again in the forums, but many people suffer from that kind of myopia--largely because dps and kills are measurable and other benefits are not. It's the old lesson in wisdom on what is seen and what is unseen.

Drawing on my limited experience so far, there clearly are nice perks to having higher monk levels on a dark monk. Since the enhancement pass, if you multiclass at all on a dark monk and are not using short swords, the only reason to go dark monk is for either (a) the dark finishers or (b) touch of death. They both rely on monk levels for their dc's.

Coyote has success with both dark finishers and touch of death. Coyote has nearly unfailing success with other things that rely on monk levels, like unbalancing strikes (for single target cc/bluff/SA) and flash bangs (for AOE cc/daze/blindness/SA), which provide cc and increase sneak attack damage. Quivering palm is also effective. According to many, quivering palm has been nerfed and is therefore somehow useless, but I have nothing to compare it to and it works pretty well on Coyote.

Please, (pure or nearly pure) monks, I'm calling you out! Come to the defense of monks!

[Firewall]

(...)I'm thinking that the main benefit of taking merely 2-3D wolf monk is that you get to actually play a monk.
(...) Please, (pure or nearly pure) monks, I'm calling you out! Come to the defense of monks!

Actually from my point of view playing in wolf form has nothing to do with playing like a pure monk. You don't have the attack animations, cannot use abundant step in form and being a wolf makes it hard to exactly place the character in jumping puzzles in my experience. You do not even look humanoid. You play a wolf - not a monk. And i don't really know why you post a build that is exploiting a bug that you even warn people about in your OP. And why you need three threads to discuss it and now quote posts made in another thread in this one is really beyond me. You even keep repeating your sentences. You already made the same statement in your OP.

Optimizing a build for Flash Bang is a waste of AP in my experience except if you only aim at EN and EH content. It is useless on endgame EE. The same is probably true for Takedown because the DC is even lower.

The reason i play a pure monk is simply because they make an absolutely great shuriken thrower build because of the capstone. If you don't use a capstone and with the nerf to Quivering Palm for a tactical attacks using melee you are probably always better off (heavy) multiclassing except for maybe a flavor build.

[savingsoul]

Actually from my point of view playing in wolf form has nothing to do with playing like a pure monk. You don't have the attack animations, cannot use abundant step in form and being a wolf makes it hard to exactly place the character in jumping puzzles in my experience. You do not even look humanoid. You play a wolf - not a monk. And i don't really know why you post a build that is exploiting a bug that you even warn people about in your OP. And why you need three threads to discuss it and now quote posts made in another thread in this one is really beyond me. You even keep repeating your sentences. You already made the same statement in your OP.

Optimizing a build for Flash Bang is a waste of AP in my experience except if you only aim at EN and EH content. It is useless on endgame EE. The same is probably true for Takedown because the DC is even lower.

The reason i play a pure monk is simply because they make an absolutely great shuriken thrower build because of the capstone. If you don't use a capstone and with the nerf to Quivering Palm for a tactical attacks using melee you are probably always better off (heavy) multiclassing except for maybe a flavor build.

You can drop out of wolf form for the puzzles. I think the point about the animations and humanoid form is good if you are into role playing, etc. I can respect that. Others might not care about that and find it totally trivial. There are many people that are using this bug and I'm not sure whether or how it is going to be changed. That's why I call it Punch Drunk Love. I originally pointed out that this build is not recommended for epic levels because it relies on something that is NWI. It is implicit in the fact that I only mapped out heroic levels, but I guess I should have repeated that.

However, I think it is sad that you basically say that a monk without a capstone sucks. There are countless people who do small splashes on a monk, perhaps merely for heroic questing for a monk past life. 3D is still a good splash for fatal harrier and the other druid enhancements even if you don't use wolf form. Of course, if the only thing making a monk worthwhile is the capstone, then there are tons of people out there making the same "mistake" I am by doing small splashes of other classes on a monk, like pally or fighter or rogue.

I've explained why I started new threads on each occasion. The first time was to avoid an error, and the second time was to solicit advice from people in the monk forum. I was hoping for advice from people more experienced with pure monk like you. Mission accomplished. I just wish you would have followed the posts and the reasons for them with a little more sensitivity. I haven't repeated myself in the way you assume, because I've been updating the OP after I learn helpful/important things through the discussion or elsewhere. The updates to the OP have come after the answers or discussions in the thread, not the other way around.

EDIT:

BTW, I have no qualms about exploiting this NWI because I think wolf form should have access to either natural fighting or twf. Perhaps they should have simply made twf apply to animal forms in they way they apply to monks rather than creating natural fighting feats, because both monks and animals are considered unarmed anyway. They could then compensate for differences in strength for druid melee by tweaking enhancements.

Also, I think that I set up the roleplay for Coyote pretty well.

[Firewall]

(...) I haven't repeated myself in the way you assume, because I've been updating the OP after I learn helpful/important things through the discussion or elsewhere. The updates to the OP have come after the answers or discussions in the thread, not the other way around.

To be fair there had not been any answers or discussions in this thread before my post. And the content of your threads really sound like big parts are copy pasted. And you even repeated yourself in the same OP but since you keep constantly editing your posts i cannot quote that anymore. But it makes reading the threads a bit annoying if you combine it with a wall of text.

I suggest you simply link your newest thread in this one and keep one main thread for discussion instead of bumping all your threads by posting answers, quotes and insights back and force. This also keeps people from posting here what others have posted in another thread already.

If you think my above points are just roleplaying issues i have a bit trouble to understand what you mean by 'you actually get to play a monk' then. What is key trait where in your opinion 18 or 20 monk is a big difference to say a 12 or 15 monk character? They all have Abundant Step, almost the same running speed, use Handwraps, can have Grandmaster Stances and the other differences between 15 and 20 monk levels are fairly unnoticable in normal play in my experience, whereas running around in wolf form in jumpin puzzles and having to switch to humanoid form to use abundant step is a big issue for me to define it as not playing a monk.

I never said a monk without capstone sucks, i said a tactical attacks using monk is probably better off and more effective when (heavy) multiclassing. But if you only look for a heroic build you can make almost everything work there. If you like to play a 18/2 split for flavor that's fine but if you ask for effectiveness you already got the answer from others that you might have to look for other splits.

[savingsoul]

To be fair there had not been any answers or discussions in this thread before my post. And the content of your threads really sound like big parts are copy pasted. And you even repeated yourself in the same OP but since you keep constantly editing your posts i cannot quote that anymore. But it makes reading the threads a bit annoying if you combine it with a wall of text.

I suggest you simply link your newest thread in this one and keep one main thread for discussion instead of bumping all your threads by posting answers, quotes and insights back and force. This also keeps people from posting here what others have posted in another thread already.

If you think my above points are just roleplaying issues i have a bit trouble to understand what you mean by 'you actually get to play a monk' then. What is key trait where in your opinion 18 or 20 monk is a big difference to say a 12 or 15 monk character? They all have Abundant Step, almost the same running speed, use Handwraps, can have Grandmaster Stances and the other differences between 15 and 20 monk levels are fairly unnoticable in normal play in my experience, whereas running around in wolf form in jumpin puzzles and having to switch to humanoid form to use abundant step is a big issue for me to define it as not playing a monk.

I never said a monk without capstone sucks, i said a tactical attacks using monk is probably better off and more effective when (heavy) multiclassing. But if you only look for a heroic build you can make almost everything work there. If you like to play a 18/2 split for flavor that's fine but if you ask for effectiveness you already got the answer from others that you might have to look for other splits.

The point of repeatedly updating the OP with new insights is to avoid having to post additional comments that bump up the thread. (I have been away from the forums for a while, so I had to relearn that.)

If big parts of my posts are copy and pasted, they are copy and pasted from things I've carefully written. If you are suggesting I am getting the text from elsewhere, you are mistaken.

I've already answered your question about higher monk levels in the OP. Are you asking me to copy and paste again? You are also sidestepping the 3D/17M non-wolf possibility, and in effect asking me to repeat myself yet again. I already explained why I posted new threads, and yet you make me repeat myself again . . .

The point of updating the OP and in effect creating a "wall of text" is to avoid having to repeat the same points over and over again (as well as providing a single reference), repeatedly bumping up the thread. The fact that there were no replies yet to this thread only goes to show that maybe you should have given more time to bother reading the OP--the only post in the thread. The quote from unbongwah is from the old thread where, before you came along, I already pointed to this updated thread; that is, the point was to avoid posting to an old thread.

EDIT: I've updated the title to say "plays like a monk" instead of "is a monk", and will refer to the build now that way accordingly, even though I'm sure someone could easily come up with an explanation for why a monk could take wolf form. Happy now?

[savingsoul]

Here are sets of enhancements for Coyote and Punch Drunk Love that capitalize on the two main reasons for going with an unarmed dark monk, (1) dark finishers and (2) touch of death (because everything else is pretty much accessible to a light monk).

Here is the set for Coyote . . .

Perks:
*Iron fist and unbalancing strike.
*Touch of death.
*+3 to DCs on all finishers. http://ddowiki.com/page/Finishing_Moves
*You can generate pain touch and freezing life blood nearly instantaneously without any cooldowns (see OP on how to do this).
*You can generate trembling earth more quickly, by using fists of iron and strike of enduring in tandem (since they have separate cooldowns).
*Doublestrike boost, vengeful hunter, and bestial nature.
*Both improved recovery helf enhancements.

Enhancement: Half-Elf - Half-Elven Versatile Nature (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Adaptability: Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Greater Adaptability: Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Sly Flourish (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Dilettante: Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Nature's Warrior (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Bestial Nature (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Bestial Nature (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Bestial Nature (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Athletic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Riddle of Fire (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wave of Despair (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Impending Doom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Unbalancing Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Poisoned Soul (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Flash Bang (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Poison Exploit (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Touch of Death (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)


Here is a similar set of enhancements for Punch Drunk Love.

Enhancement: Half-Elf - Half-Elven Versatile Nature (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Adaptability: Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Greater Adaptability: Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Human Versatility: Attack Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Sly Flourish (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Dilettante: Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Half-Elf - Improved Dilettante (Rogue) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Nature's Warrior (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Instinctive Fighting (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Flight (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Flight (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Flight (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Action Boost: Double Strike (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fight (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fight (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fight (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fatal Harrier (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fatal Harrier (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Fatal Harrier (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Nature's Warrior Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Riddle of Fire (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Mystic Training (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wave of Despair (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Poisoned Soul (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Subtlety (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Unbalancing Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Poison Exploit (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Impending Doom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Touch of Death (Rank 1)

[savingsoul]

If you think my above points are just roleplaying issues i have a bit trouble to understand what you mean by 'you actually get to play a monk' then. What is key trait where in your opinion 18 or 20 monk is a big difference to say a 12 or 15 monk character? They all have Abundant Step, almost the same running speed, use Handwraps, can have Grandmaster Stances and the other differences between 15 and 20 monk levels are fairly unnoticable in normal play in my experience, whereas running around in wolf form in jumpin puzzles and having to switch to humanoid form to use abundant step is a big issue for me to define it as not playing a monk.

As I'm gaining more experience playing a dark monk with Coyote (in epic content atm) and Punch Drunk Love (in the higher heroic levels atm), I can clearly see the absurdity in the claims above. First you dismiss wolf form as "not playing a monk" for mostly trivial roleplaying reasons (which I do respect in an open-minded sense, but since you come across as so pig-headed about it, I don't respect in this context). Then you dismiss 8 to 5 levels of monk as useless.

You want to know what *not playing a monk* is? (at least as far as the page I'm clearly on here, which is dark monk) I'll tell you what it is: "monks" that don't use finishers or touch of death or anything else dependent on or benefiting from higher monk levels. That's what *not playing a monk* is.

It is quite easy to switch in and out of wolf, you get many of the benefits of druid levels even if you drop out of wolf form, and I actually prefer jumping around in wolf form depending on the situation (especially rather than winter wolf form, cause winter wolf is so big), because wolfs are small yet have four feet. It's also quite easy to explain how a monk could transform into a wolf from a roleplaying perspective.

Maybe you can convince me there is some way to get the benefits you receive and dc's you need for finishers and touch of death and everything else dependent on monk levels after dismissing 8 to 5 levels of dark monk, so you can really play like a dark monk. If there is, then let me know.