Ammunition and throwers

[nibel]

Currently in game, to use ranged weapon combat, you need one of the following conditions:

• A returning thrower
• Some way to summon ammunition from thin air (Conjure Arrows, Conjure Bolts, Flame Arrow)
• A lot of inventory space for common ammunition, alongside constant returns to the vendors to buy more when they are ending
• A lot of inventory space for crafted ammunition, alongside constant returns to the crafting halls to craft more when they are ending.

I have two ideas about how to improve the use of ammunition in game, and thus, this suggestion thread was born. Here are the changes I propose:

1. All ammo is 100% returning

Every single arrow, bolt and throwing weapon is 100% returning. In lore, this would mean you were supposed to be considered to always go back and resupply your stock between quests and such. So, if you get a stack of masterwork bolts, they will last forever.

Ammunition vendor prices might be adjusted to compensate for this, but for the majority of players (new players included), this part will not be a big deal. The focus will be on finding new magic arrows instead of resupplies of common ones.

2. Magic ammunition will have non-rechargeable click effects

This part is a bit more complex, but I will try my best to explain:

Let's use as an example the "Arrow of Orc Slaying". Currently, they have a stack of 20 arrows that are always shot (even when not hitting orcs, or a target), and once they are gone, they are gone.

Under my suggestion, if you find an "Arrow of Orc Slaying", once equipped, they would work like a Bane effect (2d6 bane damage to orcs), and once you put them on your hotbar and click to activate, for the next seconds (6? 10? 20? 60? Not sure) all your shots will be able to instakill any orc they hit. However, this would consume a charge of the stack. Once all charges are gone, the remaining arrows are destroyed, just like a fully-spent Scarab of Protection.

So, basically, every ammunition or throwing weapon that is not mundane or masterwork, will have an always-active lesser effect, and a more powerful clickie effect. You give the players the option to keep milking the free effect infinitely, or to use the charges to speed things up.

A few more examples. All damage is scaled up by the arrow ML, thus multiple ammo types may be generated by random loot. While I write "arrows", they can also be bolts or any throwing weapon:

• Plain +X Arrows will provide a +X enhancement bonus to attack and damage (non-stacking with bow/xbow enhancement bonus), and once clicked, will give +0.5[W] per enhancement bonus (Thus, a +5 arrow clickie will give +2.5[W] damage while active).
  
  • This effect is exclusive to plain magic arrows. Arrows with another enchantment will ignore this one, and use their other special effect instead. So, while a +5 Silver Arrow still provides the enhancement bonus to hit and damage, if clicked, it will give the silver arrow effect, not the extra [W] damage.
• Corrosive Arrows will have 1d6 acid damage on hit, and once clicked, adds an "acid arrow" dot effect on the target
• Flaming Arrows will have 1d6 fire damage on hit, and once clicked, makes every arrow a Fireball spell
• Freezing Arrows will have 1d6 cold damage on hit, and once clicked, gives every target a slow effect stack (-1~3% move/attack speed per hit)
• Aligned Arrows (Holy, Axiomatic, Anarchic) will have 1d6 alignment damage on hit (no damage to targets of the same alignment) and once clicked turn the arrow into an Opposite Alignment Bane effect (2d6 extra damage against opposite alignment mobs) while also breaking any metal-based DR.
• Metal-typed Arrows (Adamantine, Byeshk, Crystal, Cold Iron, Silver) will bypass their corresponding metal type DR, and once clicked will deal greater bane damage (4d6) against any opponent with a DR bypassed by that metal type. Eg.: Silver arrows will give this extra damage to devils, vampires and werewolves.
• Screaming Arrows will have 1d4 sonic damage on hit (lesser die for being a less resisted damage type), and once clicked will make every arrow a Terror Arrow.
• Forceful Arrows will have 1d4 force damage on hit, and once clicked will push non-red mobs with every hit (as if being hit by telekinesis) with a chance to knock them prone.
• Slaying Arrows will work like a Bane effect (2d6 extra damage to their specific target mobs), and once clicked will force their mob type targets to save or die on every arrow (like current slaying arrows).

If you by now is thinking "this will make arrows an off-hand weapon for projectile weapons", then you understood me perfectly.

Please, evaluate and criticize honestly.

[doubledge]

While this is a great idea, the numbers are a bit high.

The on-hit for the arrows should be Xd2 where X is the enchantment of the arrows. Also: after this rework you'd need to lower the drop rate of arrows by 90%... so many trash arrows out the wazoo. I'm assuming all arrow stacks would be reduced to 1 nonstacking arrow with a clicky?

[nibel]

While this is a great idea, the numbers are a bit high.

Numbers are placeholders. I'm using the same as standard elemental arrows that you can craft very cheap (1d6). Other than that, I think high level arrows can have the same progression as current elemental weapons (1d6, 2d4, 3d4, and so on). I think a d2 per enhancement bonus is too low.

Also: after this rework you'd need to lower the drop rate of arrows by 90%... so many trash arrows out the wazoo.

Or maybe not. Depends on how powerful the clicky part will be, and how long it will last. This can be fine tuned by Turbine staff. If they drop consistently enough, it might be a bigger incentive to actually use the clicky part of the arrow, instead of saving them for a blue moon like many people do with SP potions now.

I'm assuming all arrow stacks would be reduced to 1 nonstacking arrow with a clicky?

Or keep them as is for legacy sake, and only newly-dropped arrows would be on this format. This also prevents people mass farming/buying cheap old arrows just for the free conversion.

[LuKaSu]

Currently in game, to use ranged weapon combat, you need one of the following conditions:

• A returning thrower
• Some way to summon ammunition from thin air (Conjure Arrows, Conjure Bolts, Flame Arrow)
• A lot of inventory space for common ammunition, alongside constant returns to the vendors to buy more when they are ending
• A lot of inventory space for crafted ammunition, alongside constant returns to the crafting halls to craft more when they are ending.

I have two ideas about how to improve the use of ammunition in game, and thus, this suggestion thread was born. Here are the changes I propose:

1. All ammo is 100% returning

Every single arrow, bolt and throwing weapon is 100% returning. In lore, this would mean you were supposed to be considered to always go back and resupply your stock between quests and such. So, if you get a stack of masterwork bolts, they will last forever.

Ammunition vendor prices might be adjusted to compensate for this, but for the majority of players (new players included), this part will not be a big deal. The focus will be on finding new magic arrows instead of resupplies of common ones.

2. Magic ammunition will have non-rechargeable click effects

This part is a bit more complex, but I will try my best to explain:

Let's use as an example the "Arrow of Orc Slaying". Currently, they have a stack of 20 arrows that are always shot (even when not hitting orcs, or a target), and once they are gone, they are gone.

Under my suggestion, if you find an "Arrow of Orc Slaying", once equipped, they would work like a Bane effect (2d6 bane damage to orcs), and once you put them on your hotbar and click to activate, for the next seconds (6? 10? 20? 60? Not sure) all your shots will be able to instakill any orc they hit. However, this would consume a charge of the stack. Once all charges are gone, the remaining arrows are destroyed, just like a fully-spent Scarab of Protection.

So, basically, every ammunition or throwing weapon that is not mundane or masterwork, will have an always-active lesser effect, and a more powerful clickie effect. You give the players the option to keep milking the free effect infinitely, or to use the charges to speed things up.

A few more examples. All damage is scaled up by the arrow ML, thus multiple ammo types may be generated by random loot. While I write "arrows", they can also be bolts or any throwing weapon:

• Plain +X Arrows will provide a +X enhancement bonus to attack and damage (non-stacking with bow/xbow enhancement bonus), and once clicked, will give +0.5[W] per enhancement bonus (Thus, a +5 arrow clickie will give +2.5[W] damage while active).
  
  • This effect is exclusive to plain magic arrows. Arrows with another enchantment will ignore this one, and use their other special effect instead. So, while a +5 Silver Arrow still provides the enhancement bonus to hit and damage, if clicked, it will give the silver arrow effect, not the extra [W] damage.
• Corrosive Arrows will have 1d6 acid damage on hit, and once clicked, adds an "acid arrow" dot effect on the target
• Flaming Arrows will have 1d6 fire damage on hit, and once clicked, makes every arrow a Fireball spell
• Freezing Arrows will have 1d6 cold damage on hit, and once clicked, gives every target a slow effect stack (-1~3% move/attack speed per hit)
• Aligned Arrows (Holy, Axiomatic, Anarchic) will have 1d6 alignment damage on hit (no damage to targets of the same alignment) and once clicked turn the arrow into an Opposite Alignment Bane effect (2d6 extra damage against opposite alignment mobs) while also breaking any metal-based DR.
• Metal-typed Arrows (Adamantine, Byeshk, Crystal, Cold Iron, Silver) will bypass their corresponding metal type DR, and once clicked will deal greater bane damage (4d6) against any opponent with a DR bypassed by that metal type. Eg.: Silver arrows will give this extra damage to devils, vampires and werewolves.
• Screaming Arrows will have 1d4 sonic damage on hit (lesser die for being a less resisted damage type), and once clicked will make every arrow a Terror Arrow.
• Forceful Arrows will have 1d4 force damage on hit, and once clicked will push non-red mobs with every hit (as if being hit by telekinesis) with a chance to knock them prone.
• Slaying Arrows will work like a Bane effect (2d6 extra damage to their specific target mobs), and once clicked will force their mob type targets to save or die on every arrow (like current slaying arrows).

If you by now is thinking "this will make arrows an off-hand weapon for projectile weapons", then you understood me perfectly.

Please, evaluate and criticize honestly.

I could get behind a lesser version:
House D (vanilla +1 to +5) arrows and bolts could be 100% returning, instead of their current 75%.

That would still give lots of utility to repeater mechanics and less-than-fully-invested archers, but it wouldn't take away the benefit of the arcane archer prestige. I definitely wouldn't be for everyone having infinite of each DR breaking types of arrows. I think that's a bit very OP, and completely nullifies the AA core abilities. But infinite vanille arrows, I'd have no problem with, and it would be a super helpful quality-of-life improvement.

I applaud your very-well-thought-out idea, I just don't happen to agree.

[TeacherSyn]

Just as there isn't unlimited spell points or ki, ammo should have a finite quality to challenge a player or we get ourselves into that unbelievable 24-shots in a six-shooter situation we see on TV.

Arcane Archers are special but now they can make only +1 magic arrows, requiring them to find others. Artificers (last time I played mine) could make higher enhancements on their bolts.

Ammo is ammo, and thrown is thrown. The two shouldn't be conflated.

I think House D's store is woefully antiquated in the types of arrows. While I still feel they should be 75% returning (this makes logical sense as the real world would see some arrows destroyed) we should be able to +1 to +5 arrows with proper level or class requirements for all DR and elemental types. Of course, getting House D favor should still be needed for these arrows, else, get them at a general vendor. These simple and masterwork arrows should also be 75% returning.

Crafting returning arrows with special effects (banes) isn't a bad idea but this sounds like a dev's nightmare.

The concept of "If you by now is thinking "this will make arrows an off-hand weapon for projectile weapons" is called a dart. Now that shurikens have come to popularity, the dart should be reviewed to allow more uses and more named versions of them for throwers.

[PsychoBlonde]

Considering I've done something like 15 archery-based lives on my characters, buying ammo is just not that big of a deal. In fact, I generally craft a ton of +1 holy/fire/cold/acid arrows from Cannith Crafting and use those in preference to the conjured arrows for a little extra damage. (Leveling an archer is all about getting as much "extra damage" as you can possibly get).

But, hey, as long as we're *****ing about anything that even suggests inconvenience in any possible way, how about making all melee weapons indestructible so you never have to worry about your weapon getting broken? Actually, ALL gear should be like that. Having to run to a vendor to repair is SUCH a drag.

Well, they did put that astral shard repair thing in the game. I wouldn't mind having an astral shard "summon ammo" button. For emergencies, you know.

Shrining to get your clickies and spell points back is SOOO tedious and time-consuming, too. Those should never run out, either.

[nibel]

Just as there isn't unlimited spell points or ki, ammo should have a finite quality to challenge a player or we get ourselves into that unbelievable 24-shots in a six-shooter situation we see on TV.

You mean like currently almost any ranged build have technically infinite ammo? Every thrower build uses primarily returning ones. Every decent archer have AA 100% returning arrows (via ranger levels or elven AA). Every artificer can summon huge stacks of bolts with echoes of power SP. Only pure rogue mechanic have trouble with ammo.

The "inconvenience" of buying stacks of ammo is minimal, at worst. Maybe only for metal-typed house D ones, and that is irrelevant for AAs and artificers, who have ways to bypass those.

The point of the thread is not to "remove" inconvenience. Is to try to make ammo slot (and the thrower's choice) something more than "place your 100% returning there and never look back". I mean, look at your own archers. When was the last time you actually thought "I will run Cabal, so let me equip my goblinoid bane arrows", and did that?

[PsychoBlonde]

The point of the thread is not to "remove" inconvenience. Is to try to make ammo slot (and the thrower's choice) something more than "place your 100% returning there and never look back". I mean, look at your own archers. When was the last time you actually thought "I will run Cabal, so let me equip my goblinoid bane arrows", and did that?

Eh, I usually don't bother with bane arrows, but, like I said, I usually make a stack of 1000 +1 holy arrows, another of +1 acid arrows, a third of +1 fire arrows, and a fourth of +1 cold arrows. And I use them. It helps if you have a decent-sized quiver, of course.

I didn't have an Abbot quiver on my other ranged character so ran with the arrow-spitting quiver and used those arrows a lot of the time for a little extra oomph. The lawful-bane ones are particularly nice.