Build help: Best lightly splashed monk for leveling (Mostly heroic)

[supott]

I'm currently looking at: 18 monk 1 rogue 1 fighter
I don't want to do a deep splash because I want to check out Quivering palm and want to enjoy as much as a pure monk experience.

If: 2 rogue = no fail umd, haste boost, traps
If: 2 fghter = tactics, haste boost, 2 feats
If: 1 rogue 1 fghter = no fail umd, haste boost, 1 feat (if with traps, need 16 int, 12 con, 14 wis or str. If I like the build enough, I may go do an Epic past life so I'm not throwing out Strength & Overwhelming Crit.)

Questions:
1)Will no failing heal scrolls be a useful advantage? I don't want to go half elf Cleric dil because of the heavy investment in enhancement points (17 i believe) for 95% heals. If not I can just go 18 monk 2 fighter
2)Will trapping be a useful advantage? Will my reflex as a monk be enough to pass elite traps in heroic? If not I can just go 18 monk 2 fighter
3)How is 10k stars on a Monk without Shuriken expertise for backup ranged. (I don't have any other useful things to pick here)
4)Is precision good? Some people swear by it. While i haven't done the math, -4 damage and a 2.5% chance to crit, vs. +4 dmg, i go with Power attack. Even with Improved Sunder (2 feats), it is still just -40% fort, or 4% crit chance.

Feats:
power attack
2 weapon fighting
stunning fist
cleave
deflect arrows
light path
stunning blow
dodge or +2 reflexes
great cleave
IC: bludgeon
Improved 2 weapon fighting
Ten thousand stars
Greater 2 weapon fighting

Stats:
Strength: 16 + 2 level ups + 5 tome for Overwhelming Crit (If going epic)
Wisdom: 16 + rest of level ups
Dex: 15
Con: 15
Int and Cha: 8



Thanks!

[Cemen]

go 16monk/2ftr/2rog human extra skill point heal amp

1 monk and human heal amp + rog wand and scrolls mastery should be nice heal
2 sure it be,get some resiitance,good luck items gh clickies or scroll should be fine
3 dont know,maybe imp sunder,mobility for more dodge or some past life feat
4 i would say power atack,using precison on ranged build only

[supott]

Good idea, thanks

I just realized 2 Rogue had +75% scroll mastery

[savingsoul]

I think that taking two levels of fighter for tactics is like robbing Peter to Pay Paul, because you loose dc's on all your attacks based on monk levels, especially on a dark monk, either 1 or 2 depending. Go dwarf if you want the tactics. Of course, if you really want feats, go fighter, but you don't really need more feats for heroic questing. Likewise, the extra skill point and healing amp on human is nice, but you really don't need the extra feat.

I'm currently experimenting with 2-3 levels of druid on a monk using optional wolf form.

If you are willing to lose four monk levels, then you can get everything you want and more by going 3D/1Rogue/16M on a dwarf.

Gains from taking 3 levels of Druid: +30% base attack speed (scalable), +4 to base dmg, crit on 19-20 rather than merely 20, piercing and slashing damage with unarmed strike bonuses, takedown (trip using wis mod), Ram's might (+3 dmg), +3 to attack when flanking, vengeful hunter (passive boost to crit dmg before multipliers), fatal harrier! (stackable, scalable passive boost to attack speed), +2d6 sneak attack, and mainly fun playing as a plain wolf at any level.

For more details, click on the Coyote and Punch Drunk Love link in my signature.

EDIT: Please note that you do not have to use wolf form on the suggested builds w/ 3D, but you will still get several of the benefits.

[supott]

hey savingsoul thanks for the reply. i actually did read ur post on punchdrunk love. it looks cool ! and nice for a leveling build. Its just always theres fear they might fix the druid twf bug.

Also i have very shallow but real problems with playing dwarves and warforged. I just don't like the way they look and thus its not as fun to play them for me.

I read about half elf being not as good as human, but when i compared it closely on the planner i didn't really see why and i think the enhancement investment is just the same.

I went with Cleric Dili and so far it was a great decision, for Restoration alone.

I am going with 18 monk 2 fighter. Fighter is mostly for the haste boosts, and not so much the tactical dc's, thats why im getting my 2nd fighter lvl probably lvl 20.

the loss of monk levels for monk dc's is ok for me since im only splashing 2. 4 would have been too much for me. Also i haven't really tried alot of the other monk moves since they seem more situational and not needed. I have yet to play much monk so i will experiment still.

Im foregoing trap skills and just doing quests on hard - id rather have fun. Its always been time consuming for me anyway to remember where elite traps were and even if i had my wiki up, i would eventually stumble into one and die and recall in the past, and it was just no fun for me so im ok with 18 monk 2 fighter

[savingsoul]

hey savingsoul thanks for the reply. i actually did read ur post on punchdrunk love. it looks cool ! and nice for a leveling build. Its just always theres fear they might fix the druid twf bug.

Also i have very shallow but real problems with playing dwarves and warforged. I just don't like the way they look and thus its not as fun to play them for me.

I read about half elf being not as good as human, but when i compared it closely on the planner i didn't really see why and i think the enhancement investment is just the same.

I went with Cleric Dili and so far it was a great decision, for Restoration alone.

I am going with 18 monk 2 fighter. Fighter is mostly for the haste boosts, and not so much the tactical dc's, thats why im getting my 2nd fighter lvl probably lvl 20.

the loss of monk levels for monk dc's is ok for me since im only splashing 2. 4 would have been too much for me. Also i haven't really tried alot of the other monk moves since they seem more situational and not needed. I have yet to play much monk so i will experiment still.

Im foregoing trap skills and just doing quests on hard - id rather have fun. Its always been time consuming for me anyway to remember where elite traps were and even if i had my wiki up, i would eventually stumble into one and die and recall in the past, and it was just no fun for me so im ok with 18 monk 2 fighter

I didn't mean to push for druid so much as point out the benefits of going dwarf over taking two fighter merely for tactics, as well as that you don't really need the extra feats for heroic questing. I just wanted to mention druid as an interesting possibility. You are right about the risks of losing twf on animal forms, and I didn't mean to mislead you. That's why I suggested 3D, since fatal harrier and many of the other benefits of the druid splash do not require wolf form. You are also right about not giving up too many monk levels (though for some reason many people in the forms might disagree with that). What kind of monk are you planning on playing? Are you determined to play light monk? Which shade of monk and what enhancements you play of course also determines whether you even want to bother splashing at all, especially if it is mostly for the haste boost rather than the feats.

EDIT: I just now came across your other thread https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...than-Pure-monk, and it looks like you've addressed 2F/18M. This is the more recent thread, so I'm posting here. I just wanted to add that the responses you got in favor of 2F apply more to a light monk than a dark one, though I don't think anyone made that point, because on a dark monk you lose 2 to the dc's of all your finishers and some special attacks. So it looks like you've thought this through a bit since you are going light monk. Glad you are having fun too, because that is what it's all about.

[Munkenmo]

I am going with 18 monk 2 fighter. Fighter is mostly for the haste boosts, and not so much the tactical dc's, thats why im getting my 2nd fighter lvl probably lvl 20.

You only need 1 fighter level for hasteboost & extra actionboosts, A second fighter level is only for tactics and an extra feat, neither of which you really need for a heroic build.

I'd absolutely go 18monk/1fighter/1rogue.

Or if you're lacking gear, then do pick up a second rogue level to help top up your umd and qualify for wand & scroll mastery.

I read about half elf being not as good as human, but when i compared it closely on the planner i didn't really see why and i think the enhancement investment is just the same.

I went with Cleric Dili and so far it was a great decision, for Restoration alone.

The primary reason alot of people prefer human is the extra feat and the skill point + humans can pick up the dragon mark of passage which allows you to pick up dimension door, which is quite the nifty spell for getting quick xp.

The new enhancement system has significantly weakened half elves as the opportunity cost for racial ap investments is greater than it used to be, that said the cleric/paladin/rogue dils are definitely useful, so the race is far from a bad choice.

[savingsoul]

You only need 1 fighter level for hasteboost & extra actionboosts, A second fighter level is only for tactics and an extra feat, neither of which you really need for a heroic build.

I'd absolutely go 18monk/1fighter/1rogue.

Or if you're lacking gear, then do pick up a second rogue level to help top up your umd and qualify for wand & scroll mastery.



The primary reason alot of people prefer human is the extra feat and the skill point + humans can pick up the dragon mark of passage which allows you to pick up dimension door, which is quite the nifty spell for getting quick xp.

The new enhancement system has significantly weakened half elves as the opportunity cost for racial ap investments is greater than it used to be, that said the cleric/paladin/rogue dils are definitely useful, so the race is far from a bad choice.

I was thinking along similar lines, but then I was thinking rogue umd would be redundant with cleric dilly, and obviously there is no reason to take rogue dilly with rogue levels, so I didn't mention it. But he can respect to 1rouge/1fighter, keep cleric dilly at the lower levels, then switch to pally dilly on the higher levels for the saves when he reaches a useful enough umd, since he's already on a helf. What do you think?

[Munkenmo]

The cleric dilly makes healing without umd easier, it doesn't make umd redundant though imo:

True seeing
GH
Fire Shield
Tensors Transformation
Teleport
blur
displace
invis
halt undead


Quest specific
Lordsmarch:
Flesh to stone
Stone to flesh

Inferno of the damned:
Fire ball
Ice storm

Clerics dil's biggest strength is that it lets you use all cleric wands from level 1, whereas Umd is a bit backloaded, so if anything the cleric dil complements rogue nicely whilst he's leveling up. Then once his UMD is sufficient he can swap from the cleric dil to something else. (arti and pally are both good in mid-late heroic)

[savingsoul]

The cleric dilly makes healing without umd easier, it doesn't make umd redundant though imo:

True seeing
GH
Fire Shield
Tensors Transformation
Teleport
blur
displace
invis
halt undead


Quest specific
Lordsmarch:
Flesh to stone
Stone to flesh

Inferno of the damned:
Fire ball
Ice storm

Clerics dil's biggest strength is that it lets you use all cleric wands from level 1, whereas Umd is a bit backloaded, so if anything the cleric dil complements rogue nicely whilst he's leveling up. Then once his UMD is sufficient he can swap from the cleric dil to something else. (arti and pally are both good in mid-late heroic)

I think you simply repeated my point, but I appreciate the extra detail and explanation you provided, thanks for that.

[Munkenmo]

Not quite, I don't think the cleric dilly makes umd redundant at all. I think the only thing it's any good for is filling the gap whilst you build up your umd.

I do think that umd makes the cleric dilly redundant

[savingsoul]

Not quite, I don't think the cleric dilly makes umd redundant at all. I think the only thing it's any good for is filling the gap whilst you build up your umd.

I do think that umd makes the cleric dilly redundant

Not to belabor the point, but I see what you mean. The wording of my post could have been interpreted either way, and therefore suggested that cleric dilly was just as good as umd. We were making a similar point, but you made a much clearer and better one.

BTW, if you don't mind me asking, what are the benefits of retaining the higher monk levels on a light monk like the OP? Why only multiclass 2 levels? Most of the comments I've received along these lines suggest that you should go deeper into multiclassing (and not just on light monks). While I understand that giving up monk levels on a dark monk is a drawback on touch of death and the dark finishers, which are pretty much the only point of going dark if you are not using short swords (because nearly every other enhancement is available to a light monk), what are the benefits of higher monk levels on a light monk?

[Munkenmo]

I look at it like this, I want atleast enough monk for the past life, and wont take 19/20 so ive got 18 levels to play with.
Atleast 2 rogue for acro enhancements.
Atleast 2 fighter for the feats & hasteboost.
That leaves 14 monk - which offers very little over 12 monk if you dont value spellresist.
13monk/3rogue/2 fighter nets another sneak die, keeps spell resist
12m/4r/2 fighter gauns uncanny dodge, loses spell resist.

I dont want to drop below 12 monk, since I like the movement speed abundant step and forms feat.

I dont really need another fighter feat, I can already fit in thf chain and cleaves.

The same logic and moving past abundant step, eventually got me to a 9druid template for monk lives btw.

But the op here only asked for a light splash, giving a valid reason, so I tried to think whats optimal within those parameters

[savingsoul]

I look at it like this, I want atleast enough monk for the past life, and wont take 19/20 so ive got 18 levels to play with.
Atleast 2 rogue for acro enhancements.
Atleast 2 fighter for the feats & hasteboost.
That leaves 14 monk - which offers very little over 12 monk if you dont value spellresist.
13monk/3rogue/2 fighter nets another sneak die, keeps spell resist
12m/4r/2 fighter gauns uncanny dodge, loses spell resist.

I dont want to drop below 12 monk, since I like the movement speed abundant step and forms feat.

I dont really need another fighter feat, I can already fit in thf chain and cleaves.

The same logic and moving past abundant step, eventually got me to a 9druid template for monk lives btw.

But the op here only asked for a light splash, giving a valid reason, so I tried to think whats optimal within those parameters

Thanks for the detailed response, but what was his valid reason for only taking a light splash on a light monk? That was my question, and I didn't really get an answer yet.

If it is quivering palm, then everyone complains that quivering palm is useless since it's been nerfed.

Suggesting to drop several levels on a monk is typical for the forums, though maybe you have a point as far as a light monk goes. It is just kind of sad as far as I'm concerned. It seems like a pure light monk basically sucks.

However, with a dark monk, by multiclassing so deeply, you are giving up everything that makes it a dark monk, namely dark finishers and touch of death.

[Munkenmo]

If it is quivering palm, then everyone complains that quivering palm is useless since it's been nerfed.

Quivering palm is pretty effective in heroic levels, especially if you can pick up racial / class tactical DC's to boost it, and can be in EH or less if you pump wisdom. It's not my cup of tea since the nerf, but since the op wants it I can respect that.

Sadly dc's are so borked across the board that a 1-8 splash will likely never make a difference to the effectiveness in normal or elite content, it will in hard, but imo in epic hard + i'd rather have the versatility from a splash.

Touch of death and monk finishers fall into that category of auto succeeding in normal, auto failing in elite. In hard difficulty a pure monks dc would be a noticeable difference over a splash, but by then content is just getting tough enough that an empower healed rejuv cucoon, or divine might, haste boost, etc will likely be more useful.

[supott]

hey savingsoul, the reason i wanted a light splash was becoz i just came from a deep splash monk life, and have also never played a pure melee class or combination of pure melee classes. I was planning to play a lightly splashed monk for maybe a year or so, sadly before quivering palm was nerfed. But i don't mind. I still gotta get it out of my system.

I am doing Light now but I may probably switch to dark sometime just so I can experience both and experience playing with both their abilities.

I played a druid life a couple of lives ago but i was having issues with the shapeshifting causing performance issues while opening doors along with some others, so i'm hesitant also nowadays with the druid splashes..

I am Level 12'ish now and its been fun, very powerful compared to my last lives.

I'm thinking I probably will do one Epic Reincarnation just for Colors of the Queen because I have 1 of them and i find it pretty awesome.

[savingsoul]

hey savingsoul, the reason i wanted a light splash was becoz i just came from a deep splash monk life, and have also never played a pure melee class or combination of pure melee classes. I was planning to play a lightly splashed monk for maybe a year or so, sadly before quivering palm was nerfed. But i don't mind. I still gotta get it out of my system.

I am doing Light now but I may probably switch to dark sometime just so I can experience both and experience playing with both their abilities.

I played a druid life a couple of lives ago but i was having issues with the shapeshifting causing performance issues while opening doors along with some others, so i'm hesitant also nowadays with the druid splashes..

I am Level 12'ish now and its been fun, very powerful compared to my last lives.

I'm thinking I probably will do one Epic Reincarnation just for Colors of the Queen because I have 1 of them and i find it pretty awesome.

I'm completely on the same page. I wanted to experience the higher monk levels, especially on a dark monk. I've never played a monk beyond 12 levels before Coyote and Punch Drunk Love, partly because I'm a rabid multiclasser (and often just splashed 2 levels of monk for feats and evasion); but I've been wanting to learn about how to really play like a monk (not merely experience the humanoid animations, because I've seen plenty of those already), so I was learning and exploring that with Coyote and Punch Drunk Love builds while having fun baffling people with being in wolf form. Coyote was my first love; he let me learn higher monk levels. Punch Drunk Love is pure sickness in or out of wolf form.

However, I have already lesser reincarnated Coyote into something else . . .

1Rogue/3D/16M insanity!

It is a great build for both heroic and epic questing. It *does not rely on wolf form*, not merely because wolf form cannot be used with abundant step, but because *wolf form can't be used with wands and scrolls*. It is the latter point that is the main troublemaker for animal forms. However, you can still use wolf form intermittently on it for sick damage and capitalize on the bug if, like me, you think all animal forms should have access to either twf or natural fighting anyway (*but not both*) https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...fighting-feats . It just so happens that I did Coyote as a Halfling rather than a helf, and I'm so glad I did so because it ends up being a great race for 1Rogue/3D/16M. Dwarf could work for this build as well, like I suggested to you, especially if you want to work with quivering palm. I've got a Dwarf version going too, but it's only at level 11 atm, especially bc I'm focusing now on the Halfling in epic content. My provisional name for this build is Ashina aka Punch Drunk Love 2.0.

I'm torn by the fact that everyone suggests deep splashes on a monk for epic content. The rabid multiclasser in me says horay. The pure monk sympathizer and balanced game designer in me says boo. I'm caught between the two, and Ashina is my compromise, especially because I want to experience what requires higher monk levels in not only heroic content, but with Grandmaster of Flowers as well. I will post Punch Drunk Love 2.0 after I've tweaked the epic destinies a little more through experience. I'm thinking of SD and LD twists as well. More to come . . .

[savingsoul]

Quivering palm is pretty effective in heroic levels, especially if you can pick up racial / class tactical DC's to boost it, and can be in EH or less if you pump wisdom. It's not my cup of tea since the nerf, but since the op wants it I can respect that.

Sadly dc's are so borked across the board that a 1-8 splash will likely never make a difference to the effectiveness in normal or elite content, it will in hard, but imo in epic hard + i'd rather have the versatility from a splash.

Touch of death and monk finishers fall into that category of auto succeeding in normal, auto failing in elite. In hard difficulty a pure monks dc would be a noticeable difference over a splash, but by then content is just getting tough enough that an empower healed rejuv cucoon, or divine might, haste boost, etc will likely be more useful.

I know that you proly just gave a grabbag of examples, but they aren't particularly strong ones in this case. Rejuv cacoon can be too easily twisted to multiclass based merely on it (though you do need sp to use it), and haste boost only requires one level of fighter rather than a deeper splash. That leaves divine might, and I'm not sure how to get great benefits from that from merely a splash; I'm not doubting it, I just don't know about it.

I also really think it is a game design flaw for dark monk finishers and touch of death not to work in EE. I really want to test that, and I'm tempted to try a pure dark monk w/ maxed wis just to find out. (I have had success with flash bang on EE, which is dependent on monk levels.) I"m sure others could spare me the work though and have already tried; I welcome input along those lines.

With things as they are, I've settled on two possibilities so far as far as my 3-druid splash experiments go. The first, which I've already mentioned in my previous post, is 1Rogue/3D/16M, for UMD and +1 sa die in addition to all the druid benefits I've previously listed (and someone with a 36-point build could conceivably have trap skills as well). The second is 1F/3D/16M, for the haste boost, extra action clicks, and extra feat. I'm not willing to take a deeper multiclass than four levels outside of monk for fundamental reasons. The first is that I want to play a dark monk and do not want to further compromise on abilities dependent on monk levels. The second reason is similar; I don't want to compromise too much on monk enhancements, and the enhancement point spread becomes too compromising if, for example, I take 2rogue or 2fighter instead of just one of either. (I was most tempted to go 2rogue/3D/15M for both the umd, W&SM, and haste boost, but again it is too much of a hit on my monk abilities and enhancements on a dark monk.) Both the 1Rogue/3D and 1F/3D possibilities work quite well on a Halfling for sa and saves (though Dwarf is also a possibility for tactics). They also work best if you have access to rejuv cacoon from a past life, especially since you have plenty of sp for it. I am more partial to the rogue version for all the conveniences of UMD (and optional trapping), but the fighter version does some sick damage. I want to experiment and experience some more before I post these builds, but they have already done quite well in both heroic and epic content, and since they remain lightly splashed monks I thought I would mention them here in the meantime.

[Munkenmo]

I know that you proly just gave a grabbag of examples, but they aren't particularly strong ones in this case. Rejuv cacoon can be too easily twisted to multiclass based merely on it (though you do need sp to use it), and haste boost only requires one level of fighter rather than a deeper splash. That leaves divine might, and I'm not sure how to get great benefits from that from merely a splash; I'm not doubting it, I just don't know about it.

I also really think it is a game design flaw for dark monk finishers and touch of death not to work in EE. I really want to test that, and I'm tempted to try a pure dark monk w/ maxed wis just to find out. (I have had success with flash bang on EE, which is dependent on monk levels.) I"m sure others could spare me the work though and have already tried; I welcome input along those lines.

I had a half-elf pure monk wis based with fighter dilly before the enhancement pass and I stuck it out for a few days to see how it went, dark finishers were a waste of time. I'm talking a max wisdom monk completionist monk with 3* all useful lives.

As for my grabbage of examples, Atm my own monk is a 16/2/2 (bladeforged, 2fighter, 2wiz) I guess it's where the definition of a light splash needs to be made, I'd be the first to admit a 2 level splash is a light splash, but has a character with 2* 2 level splashes made a light splash or a moderate one?

Imo the cutoffs for monks atm are 16/12/9/6/3/2 I don't see much point in taking monk levels beyond 16, or levels in between those split points. I don't wan't to go into great detail, but i'll try explain 16 & 12

beyond 16, unarmed monks are gaining little from core enhancements and innate feats,

from 16-20 a monk gains +.5[w], 5% movement speed, 10 dr, gmof, and featherfall, 4monk levels for some tactics/finishers (either a 4 or 2 boost depending on tactic/finsiher, for monk finishers pure gives better dc's)
my 4level splash has gained, hasteboost, +3 actionboosts, 3feats, +3 tactics, +10% ac, +10prr, +15hp, +3% doublestrike, an extra cleave. (for quivering palm & stunning fist the splash gives better tactics)
Dropping down to a 12monk build normally means picking up 6classes in something that offers a drastic change in playstyle or huge boost in versatility (ie manyshot, or using weapons vs being unarmed).

I play predominantly in EE, so I look for bonuses that are useful in EE, of the pure monk benefits, the following are virtually useless : GMOF, 4monk levels for monk finishers, featherfall, 10dr /epic.
the following splash benefits are kinda useless : +10% ac.

DC's and damage are so inflated, that monk finishers are virtually auto fail in EE, auto pass in EN, and in EH where the monk levels can make a difference, I get through content faster when actionboosting & cleaving.

People laugh at me when I write off 10dr/epic, but thanks to DR applying before PRR, when a mob hits me for 330 damage, dr makes it 320, then my 110 PRR (43% mitigation) reduces that to 137 damage, no DR 10/epic means i take 330 * .43 = 141 damage. Yep, 10DR makes less than 4damage difference per hit I take, and the number reduces as mobs hit even harder.

Gmof's bonuses in earth stance are +1con, +3prr, and extra threat, the con & prr are kinda nice i guess, but the threat is a pain. We could talk about other stances but what's the point, earth is so incentivesed that being in a different stance is detrimental to your effectiveness.

You wrote of rejuvenation cocoon as it's an easily twisted ability, but that's precisely why being able to boost it's effectiveness with empower heal is of such a huge benefit, rejuv cocoon is amazing, then couple it with empower heal and it's all the self healing you need, even in EE. ( I wouldn't splash just for empower healed cocoons, but since 2fvs gets me empower heal, some sp, 15hp, 10prr, and at the very least covers my insightful str bonus freeing up a gear slot, a 2fvs splash is more attractive to me than monk levels 16-18 or 18-20.)

Anyway, I'm rambling now, I think we probably have the same feelings on building monks overall, we're just expressing ourselves differently. I didn't come into this thread about how to build my own EE monk, I was just trying to help answer the op's questions.

[savingsoul]

I had a half-elf pure monk wis based with fighter dilly before the enhancement pass and I stuck it out for a few days to see how it went, dark finishers were a waste of time. I'm talking a max wisdom monk completionist monk with 3* all useful lives.

. . .

You wrote of rejuvenation cocoon as it's an easily twisted ability, but that's precisely why being able to boost it's effectiveness with empower heal is of such a huge benefit, rejuv cocoon is amazing, then couple it with empower heal and it's all the self healing you need, even in EE. ( I wouldn't splash just for empower healed cocoons, but since 2fvs gets me empower heal, some sp, 15hp, 10prr, and at the very least covers my insightful str bonus freeing up a gear slot, a 2fvs splash is more attractive to me than monk levels 16-18 or 18-20.)

Anyway, I'm rambling now, I think we probably have the same feelings on building monks overall, we're just expressing ourselves differently. I didn't come into this thread about how to build my own EE monk, I was just trying to help answer the op's questions.

Well, I think the patience and detail of your posts are awesome, and I appreciate your informed insight. Thanks so much for all of that. On the rejuv cocoon thing, I didn't think much of it bc there are ways to get access to empower healing w/o taking many levels in something else, and I get access to it and enough sp with the 3Druid builds I'm experimenting with. Yes, it's a matter of terminology though whether 4 levels (like 1Rogue/3D) is a light or moderate splash. In any case, I think that the current game design undermining finishers in EE is flawed; it undermines too much of key monk abilities, especially because this is the case evidently, on your account, even if you build for them. Likely that is also why pure and nearly pure monks have been so silent when I've asked them to defend themselves vis a vis those who insist on deep multiclassing. I guess I can now take it for granted that people going on about monk finishers in this monk forum are evidently not playing EE content. I also think that we are generally agreed; I just have specific goals in mind at the moment which include enjoying a monk using finishers (or a finisher-using monk, if you prefer).

EDIT: I was just thinking a bit about the terminology issue, and I'm pretty sure that 13 levels of multiclassing is the max that you can take outside the class you want a life in, as in 7M/7D/6Ranger. I'll just assume it's twelve for clarity. That suggests that a light multiclass would be 1-4, medium 5-8, and heavy 9+. Of course, I'm being a little devious here by using the term "multiclass" rather than "splash", because the latter suggests something less than, say, 12 levels outside the main class; that is, few people would call 12 levels of multiclassing a splash. However, splash usually implies only one class; you take a splash of monk, a splash of fighter, or a splash of rogue, not typically a splash of, say, fighter/rogue. If you follow that reasoning, then multiclass is the better term where more than one class is involved, and we get light, medium, and heavy multiclasses where more than one class is involved; light, medium, and heavy splashes where one class is involved. Regarding splashes, I think you can take up to ten levels in a single class outside the class you want a life in, as in 10M/10D. For the sake of clarity, I will assume it's 9. That suggests that a light splash would be 1-3, medium 4-6, and heavy 7+. I suppose you could argue for different uses for the term splash, but I think I made a good case for light, medium, and heavy multiclassing, so again “multiclassing” would be the preferred terminology. Okay, so following this suggested terminology, 4 levels outside of monk involving two different classes (as in 1Rogue/3Druid or 2Fvs/2Rogue) would be a light multiclass of two light splashes. It wouldn't be a medium splash, because splash here only applies to one class. Hehe, I've obviously belabored the issue, but I had fun with it, and feel more clarity for it.