Update 22 - Swashbuckler Tree Preview Discussion

[Steelstar]

Hey, everyone!

The Lamannia build that opened today contains the new Swashbuckler Tree for Bards. Swashbucklers can improve their Dodge, Doublestrike, Attack Damage and gain benefits through a special Swashbuckling Stance!

We're excited for you to try the new tree out on Lamannia, and feel free to post your thoughts and feedback here!

[jakeelala]

Currently on live Thrown attack speed is capped at about .69 Seconds/Throw animation. This occurs before using all allacrity bonuses available. Forinstance, Blinding Speed and BaB 28 is all it takes.

Will the new SWF feats be able to breach that barrier or are they useless to throwing builds?

[BigErkyKid]

This is a reply to Card's computations in the old thread

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...g-Feats/page34

First of all, thanks for taking your time to do this.

A first precision, TWF seems to be ahead of THF but this is because you don't account for cleaves and cleave style abilities. Adding those will, I think, change the picture.

This is relevant for SWF because in the event that those could be used together, say by a fighter, taking Cleaves and SWF would make it come ahead of TWF by a larger margin.

As for SWF vs THF, this of course would not apply, since in principle both styles would benefit equally. It is interesting to see that it would be superior to THF, the reason being the superior attack speed more than compensating for the initial larger dices of the THF weapons.

PS Cleaves can also be used against single target, I am curious, why did you exclude them?

[Grailhawk]

This is a reply to Card's computations in the old thread

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...g-Feats/page34

First of all, thanks for taking your time to do this.

A first precision, TWF seems to be ahead of THF but this is because you don't account for cleaves and cleave style abilities. Adding those will, I think, change the picture.

This is relevant for SWF because in the event that those could be used together, say by a fighter, taking Cleaves and SWF would make it come ahead of TWF by a larger margin.

As for SWF vs THF, this of course would not apply, since in principle both styles would benefit equally. It is interesting to see that it would be superior to THF, the reason being the superior attack speed more than compensating for the initial larger dices of the THF weapons.

PS Cleaves can also be used against single target, I am curious, why did you exclude them?

I'm not Card. I don't count cleaves because the model to count them is too complex and I don't want to spend the time, they also wont cause the THF to beat TWF against a single target as +3[w] every six seconds will be very little DPS (this has been proven in actual DPS tests with real beat downs). What they do is spread out the dps to multiple targets something that you cant really model well on paper.

THF is perceived better then TWF right now because its much more important in the current game to kill waves of trash then beat down a single red name mob. Finally there not important for this comparison since SWF seams to clearly beat THF what ever benefit you get from cleaves will be a constant increase to both styles.

[merentha]

The description is pretty vague along the lines of "you fight better single weapons" but no indications of any bonuses it grants or what parameters engage it (aside from inferring SWF reqs = it's reqs for the ephemeral bonus to engage...)

[Steelstar]

The description is pretty vague along the lines of "you fight better single weapons" but no indications of any bonuses it grants or what parameters engage it (aside from inferring SWF reqs = it's reqs for the ephemeral bonus to engage...)

The existence of the "Single Weapon Defense" feat is a bug. It does not do anything, and is not planned for release with U22.

[jakeelala]

Btw steelstar i didn't ask to be obnoxious. I asked because i will test it for you if you dont know the answer. But im waiting for your response before i devote the time to it.

[Steelstar]

Will the new SWF feats be able to breach that barrier or are they useless to throwing builds?

The Single Weapon Fighting feats do not apply to thrown weapons.

[jakeelala]

please reconsider. you put all those nice additions to throwing weapons in swashbuckler that will go COMPLETELY to waste with these feats applying only to melee.


Is there any reason why this is the case?

[whereispowderedsilve]

Not caring 1 whit about thrower builds, how does this tree buff mostly pure bards? Does it accomplish that goal?

Mostly pure bards need buffing badly. Also especially Warchanters in my humble opinion and somewhat Spellsingers.

I would like the discussion for this thread to focus on that. It would be greatly appreciated. Thrower builds can go elsewhere.

Have a nice day! Cheers! :P! ! ! Asking nicely/sincerely/politely! Not targeted at anyone specifically.

I really love my bards & I just want them to become a bit better overall!

[poltt48]

Tried this out today it is decent damage with 3 single weapon fighting feets not great damage though. You need to really look at the bard ED to go along with single weapon fighting cause right now does not at all. Only complaints I have is how come bards get dodge cap bonus when rogues do not. Seems really wrong that fighter, monk, and now bards get there dodge cap raised in enhancements but a rogue does not.

[Krelar]

please reconsider. you put all those nice additions to throwing weapons in swashbuckler that will go COMPLETELY to waste with these feats applying only to melee.


Is there any reason why this is the case?

They've stated before that the single weapon fighting feats are not really meant for throwing weapons or for sword and board characters. They plan on addressing issues with those type of characters "In the future".

[jakeelala]

They've stated before that the single weapon fighting feats are not really meant for throwing weapons or for sword and board characters. They plan on addressing issues with those type of characters "In the future".

i guess i missed that in the length of the other thread.

[Hilltrot]

I'm not seeing anything in that article that disputes what was said.

There is only one sentence that mentions bucklers. It uses the term "possibly" and links to a reference that no longer exists so can't be checked for verification.

"I don't see any elephants around here. You are completely wrong. There are no elephants here.

Now this elephant right next to me is old, sickly and not very big."

LOL

Swashbuckler was a term rarely used until it wast popularized in the 20th century film.

So, if your epitome only occurs in 20th century film, then you might not find anything. I don't know, I don't watch that much TV.

However, just a brief read in history will provide plenty of other epitomes.

Sir Francis Drake.

Ok, you've got your one character. Now stop trying to take buckler out of the swashbuckling PRE.

[Scrabbler]

Finally there not important for this comparison since SWF seams to clearly beat THF what ever benefit you get from cleaves will be a constant increase to both styles.

How could SWF gain as much from Cleave as THF does? Do you mean Bastard (with both SWF and THF feats) ?

[kmoustakas]

I have a buff/healing spec'ed cha based drow bard. The addition of this tree will greatly benefit him because I will just take out the remaining points from the spellsinger tree and put them in swashbuckler instead of warchanter so I can go cha for damage without relying on elyd edge. This will be a vast upgrade to his dps.

I think the main issue is people are trying to make the swashbuckler (or rather, any and all new trees you are going to add from here on) as a new king of dps and compare accordingly. Seeing as how you don't have a 'slayer arrow' enhancement, it looks underpowered. Bards are not meant to beat monkchers or blitzers, they are not a dps class, they are an all around jack of all trades but master of none flavor class, for better or worse.

* and monks -are- overpowered so they don't need to be compared to, anyway.

[Grailhawk]

How could SWF gain as much from Cleave as THF does? Do you mean Bastard (with both SWF and THF feats) ?

No I mean that SWF because of x2 STR damage does more damage per hit then THF.

[Seikojin]

Like I figured, SWF is not as far behind against TWF or THF in terms of damage output as you level. I am sure it will be very strong and viable as is, when people start working class mixes into it to take advantage of doublestrike and stacked attack speed (I saw you Steel!).

[kmoustakas]

Curious: the runearm use is tied specifically to artificers. Are there plans of making this tree available to artificers and I missed it? Or of the 'runearm use' feat made available to other classes?

It seems a bit odd to have abilities in a tree specifically for multiclass.

[Seikojin]

Curious: the runearm use is tied specifically to artificers. Are there plans of making this tree available to artificers and I missed it? Or of the 'runearm use' feat made available to other classes?

It seems a bit odd to have abilities in a tree specifically for multiclass.

Runearm and orb were added for those who decide to make bard arties and bard wizzies.