Update 22 - Swashbuckler Tree Preview Discussion

[N-0cturn]

Upgrading your weapon one die size would be a pretty bad use of a feat slot, if DDO allowed that. A better thing to compare against is Empty Hand Mastery in the Shintao tree, which does upgrade from d6 to d8. That costs 2 AP, and is a lot better than the proposed 4 AP Longsword enhancement in several ways.

That version of a Longsword enhancement doesn't directly upgrade your damage; it merely allows you to use a different weapon type, with all the limitations that entails. Obtaining a good Longsword is often a lot more difficult than getting a good Rapier/Shortsword/Pick/Dagger, especially if TR is considered. And the finesse-incompatibility is another drawback.

Sure, 2 AP would probably work as well. I was not sure about the number myself and in the end looked more at the benefit with a thunder-forged weapon.

Just give it any drawback for Str builds, otherwise it would be a clear best choice with thunder-forged weapons. Which is the only reason I can see why this has not been added in the first place. I can somehow understand Scimitars, since bards are not proficient, but Longswords are an iconic bard weapon as well as a weapon we would associate with the Swashbuckler style.

You can call it Swashbuckler of the old school or something like that and afterwards you will no longer have to listen to our complaints about the weapon choices

[Scrabbler]

Just give it any drawback for Str builds, otherwise it would be a clear best choice with thunder-forged weapons.

It's not bad if for one build type and one weapon origin there's a single best item choice... that's how every other class works (except Wolf). And even a Strength Swashbuckler might not want a Longsword, if there's any chance he'll someday TR to not be a Swashbuckler (or not a Bard).


What it comes down to is that if Longsword Swashbuckling costs AP, then Bards from levels 1-19 will never use longsword* and just save the AP for something else. Only with certain high-level weapons will they maybe spend AP to enable that kind of weapon. It would be preferable for Swashbucklers of all level ranges to (slightly) prefer Longsword over Handaxe, Shortsword, Dagger, and so forth.

Given that currently NO kinds of character like to use Longsword, it would be an improvement if Longsword were the preferred default choice for non-Finesse Swashbuckler Bards.


*Ok not "never", there technically is a super-Longsword at ML which some people would use for a while.

I can somehow understand Scimitars, since bards are not proficient

Bards aren't proficient in Kukri or Pick, but Swashbuckler supports them for some reason... if the devs are going to leave items like those on the Swashbuckling critical list, Longsword and Scimitar should go on too.


Anyway, if the devs do follow the plan to add a 2 AP enhancement which adds Longswords to the Swashbuckling list, they should put it on a multiselector with another choice to improve Rapier (such as going from d6 to d8 base). That would give Rapier a needed boost compared to Shortsword and Light Mace for Swashbuckler choice.

[kmoustakas]

I disagree with adding more weapons. I would prefer it weaker weapons like light pick and handaxe got some more love actually. A swashbuckler with light pick should do some more awesome stuff!

[Scrabbler]

I disagree with adding more weapons. I would prefer it weaker weapons like light pick and handaxe got some more love actually.

Longsword is a weaker weapon that needs love. In fact, Light Pick is a better weapon than Longsword already!

[Zerkul]

They do work togheter. Is it WAI Steel?

EDIT: Also taking SWF and Shield Mastery Feats with buckler works togheter i think... can someone check?

[LrdSlvrhnd]

That would defeat the point of even having separate trees at all. If the devs made that change, they'd have to follow it up by picking out the "good" enhancements from each tree and making them 3x or 4x as expensive...

The point of having the trees would be the cores; you'd still have to spend X amount of points in the tree to get the cores. (Granted, I wouldn't bother with a lot of the cores, which is why I feel they should be autogrants when you spend enough AP in a tree) And I don't see why they'd have to make "good" enhancements more expensive. The old way with being able to cherrypick ANY enhancement (prereqs notwithstanding) as long as you've spent the minimum total worked just fine and wasn't OP. My dwarven ranger/rogue could spend 32 points in all ranger and dwarf stuff and then pick up a rogue enhancement that listed "minimum AP spent: 30" if he so wanted. This would be no different, really.

[Maelodic]

They do work togheter. Is it WAI Steel?

EDIT: Also taking SWF and Shield Mastery Feats with buckler works togheter i think... can someone check?

This works- 20 PRR and 15% Doublestrike for two feats and a twist is pretty cool.

[Satyriasys]

Sadly, no matter what gimmicky bonuses you pile on a single attack it's still not going to entice me. Unless you are willing to add some new animations to make the fighting style feel unique and tight. DDO for too long has gone the cheap rout and hasn't added anything of real substance for a long time. We need more classes, races, spells with new effects and graphics and fighting styles with new animations. Instead of adding 5 updates of nonsense this year add 1 of real value. Where are my new Monster Manuals? Where are my new cosmetics? (or old ones?) awww it costs time and money to create? That's why it's called work.

[MangLord]

Bards aren't proficient in Kukri or Pick, but Swashbuckler supports them for some reason... if the devs are going to leave items like those on the Swashbuckling critical list, Longsword and Scimitar should go on too.

If I recall, Bards can select Master's Touch as a first level spell. That would make your character proficient with both kukri and picks, assuming they're holding one when casting the spell, since both are martial weapons.

[Scrabbler]

That would make your character proficient with both kukri and picks, assuming they're holding one when casting the spell, since both are martial weapons.

Yes, Bards can cast a spell to get proficient with martial weapons.

The point is that Pick, Kukri, and Scimitar are all martial weapons that a Bard isn't permanently proficient with. So it doesn't work to use Bard proficiency to explain why Swashbuckling allows Kukri but forbids Scimitar. Forbidding Longsword makes even less sense from that angle.

Clearly the rule the devs use for Swashbuckle compatibility is "non-exotic Finesse" weapons. It would be better to use another criteria that included the traditional "swashbuckling" gear.

[Zerkul]

I just crunched out numbers for a Swashbuckler splash with Kensai and Cleric. Things are horrifying. Will post a summary tomorrow when i wake up.

As I tought there is at least one combination that is incredibly powerful in terms of single target DPS.

[Mryal]

I just crunched out numbers for a Swashbuckler splash with Kensai and Cleric. Things are horrifying. Will post a summary tomorrow when i wake up.

As I tought there is at least one combination that is incredibly powerful in terms of single target DPS.

Yep with no evasion, STR based obviously due to cleric taking advantage of divine might.So horrible saves aswell then.Mad single target DPS, maybe.But the lack of survival means it needs others, needs teamplay.Why is it unbalanced then? does it outdps a thrower build that does all that from ranged while kitting and surviving on its on?

Does it outdps the swf/twf exploiting druid monk combo that will come after update?

They do work togheter. Is it WAI Steel?

EDIT: Also taking SWF and Shield Mastery Feats with buckler works togheter i think... can someone check?

Its not WAI.its been stated by devs.TWF isnt WAI either.but its working anyway.Does it suggests that they have little control over it, that fixing it would take too much work.Too much work before the 2 weeks of u22 release? It does.wich is...scarry.Its scarry to think that TWF+SWF wolf builds will come to live.If you ask me, i'd say they should delay the release of swash/SWF until blocking it for animal forms is possible.And youre hearing that from someone that has a character just waiting to be TRed back to bard once it comes..

If it reaches live, it will become like monkcher furyshotters.It will be broken,abusing a not WAI mechanic.But so many builds using it will show up.That it will become....'diplomaticaly hard' for turbine to fix it.So if theres any devs still reading this...please make sure it doesnt happens...before its too late.

Regarding shield maestry.It does work, wich makes sense.The bonuses from shield maestry arent really too much anyway.And they give even less (in terms of PRR) if youre using a buckler

[Ryethiel]

It's not WAI. it's been stated by devs.

If it's not WAI for SWF to work in Animal Forms, then it's probably not WAI that it works for Crossbows as well... As I've mentioned earlier, with taking SWF, I was able to use "Different Tack" to apply either DEX, INT, or CHA to the damage mod on Crossbows...

Unless that last bit is WAI, who knows. Still no response from a Dev, on the first time that I mentioned it...

[TromboneFireTurtle]

If it's not WAI for SWF to work in Animal Forms, then it's probably not WAI that it works for Crossbows as well... As I've mentioned earlier, with taking SWF, I was able to use "Different Tack" to apply either DEX, INT, or CHA to the damage mod on Crossbows...

Unless that last bit is WAI, who knows. Still no response from a Dev, on the first time that I mentioned it...

Thematically, crossbows are appropriate, as they remained the predominant ship-to-ship weapon until the 1600's.
Personally, I can see a swashbuckler using a crossbow until an enemy entered Melee range.
Mechanically, crossbows use DEX as the attack modifier, so I can see how they got swept up with all of the finessible weapons.
I don't know if this is WAI, but this could be their reasoning.

[Ryethiel]

Thematically, crossbows are appropriate, as they remained the predominant ship-to-ship weapon until the 1600's.
Personally, I can see a swashbuckler using a crossbow until an enemy entered Melee range.
Mechanically, crossbows use DEX as the attack modifier, so I can see how they got swept up with all of the finessible weapons.
I don't know if this is WAI, but this could be their reasoning.

Well, if it is WAI, then applying DEX, INT, or CHA to the Damage Mod on Crossbows is kind of the only use you'll get out of the new Tree... at least for Crossbows. (Aside from the Doubleshot Action Boost, or whatever clicky attacks.)

You can't "Swashbuckle" with a Crossbow, witch is kind of understandable. (Exploit Weakness with a Repeater? "OP" doesn't begin to describe it. )

[Mryal]

If it's not WAI for SWF to work in Animal Forms, then it's probably not WAI that it works for Crossbows as well... As I've mentioned earlier, with taking SWF, I was able to use "Different Tack" to apply either DEX, INT, or CHA to the damage mod on Crossbows...

Unless that last bit is WAI, who knows. Still no response from a Dev, on the first time that I mentioned it...

I was able to do the same for throwers.Makes more sense than crossbows.But..isnt single weapon fighting.

[Seikojin]

IIRC< SWF should not work for xbows. It did work with druid animal forms twf. I could see swf animal forms getting it and not being op. But swf with repeaters would be very op. Guess we'll find out this week.

[Eth]

Its not WAI.its been stated by devs.

Do you have a source?
I have not seen any official statement on it unfortunately.

[Zerkul]

INTRO
In this comparison i'll show you 3 builds: a SWF Build, a TWF Build and a THF Build. All 3 share the pastlives of my MAIN character Zavarthak, in fact i named all of them "Zav as ...":

1. Human Bard 5/Fighter 14/Cleric 1;
2. Human Monk 6/Fighter 12/Cleric 2;
3. HOrc Barbarian 18/Fighter 1/Cleric 1.

Why these? The intent is to compare different builds that represent each one the near-best melee Single Target DPS achievable at endgame for each of the 3 weapon styles considered. I say near-best because these are the ones i reputed to reach the higher numbers after some long tests: there might or not might be better ones, I don't know. Take this as it is, that's my best effort.

To make things comparable at endgame I kept equipments rather similar between the 3 builds (all 3 equipments use Thunderforged weapons tier3). You can download the file with all 3 builds, the DPS Estimator and the brand new Average Exploit Weakness Bonus Calculator at this link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9L...it?usp=sharing .

What the Average Exploit Weakness Bonus Calculator does? For a given probability of doing a critical hit calculates the effective average number of bonus crit range one should take into account for DPS calcs. For who doesn't know Exploit Weakness is a tier5 Swashbuckler enhancement. The base assumption is that dice rolls are independant of each other so we are in a multiplicative events situation, the easiest one to calculate. You can see the results for yourself and play with it if you understand a little of probability theory. Without going in-depth, the shorter is the crit range of your weapon the more this enhancements widens it: this means light picks gets the most out of it while rapiers get the least while Swashbuckling.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

RESULTS
The tests are two: 1. with no Boosts; 2. with Boosts.

TEST1, no Boosts


TEST2, with Boosts


Let's comment...

... What's going on here? With simple Auto Attack mode SWF > TWF > THF. If we take into account boosts the TWF gets a little ahead because the haste boost amplifies both mainhand and offhand attack speeds so we get: TWF > SWF > THF. The difference though is rather little.

Let's clarify this test has been made without considering ANY special attacks like for example Cleaves, Monk Strikes, Bards Attacks, etc. . What does this mean? Probably with monk strikes the TWF DPS will raise a little making it equal with SWF even without Boosts... But even in this situation ask yourselves if SWF being so close at endgame to TWF is a good thing or not.

Side Note: If you see any errors or want to comment feel free to answer here or PM me, I'll see what I can do in my free time from work.
Side Note2: For these builds I calculated also other stats like saves, PRR and Dodge... It's fun to see how they compare each other also under this point of view. Consider that the barbarian build I posted is the same I used to solo EE What Goes Up.

That's it for now.
Happy Monday ..

Z.

[zaphear]

Soo what you're saying is THF is the worst possible DPS in Melee Builds. This is about as ass backwards as it can be.. THF should have highest Damage Per Hit and Burst DPS, TWF should have highest Sustained DPS, and SWF should be somewhere in between. Looks like it's none of those.