Update 22 - Swashbuckler Tree Preview Discussion

[Scrabbler]

However, Light weapons gain bonuses while swashbuckling

That's not how it works. Rapier is not light and gets swashbuckling bonuses. Kama is light and gets no swashbuckling bonus.

[Steelstar]

However, Light weapons gain bonuses while swashbuckling
scimitars, even when considered light weapons (=ranger splash) do not gain advantages while swashbuckling.

They already do, on Lamannia. While Swashbuckler doesn't innately count Scimitar as a light weapon, having the Tempest ability that makes Scimitars count as Light weapons will allow you to use a Scimitar in Swashbuckling stance. If you've observed that this is not working in the current Lamannia build, please file a bug report.

The question Vargouille was answering was "Are you going to change all Scimitars to be light/finesseable weapons", which we are not doing.

[poltt48]

Could you guys adds some SWF love to ED. All other forms of fighting get help from ED.

[maddmatt70]

Could you guys adds some SWF love to ED. All other forms of fighting get help from ED.

I have been wondering how cleave, great cleave, momentum swing, and lay waste work with SWF? It should be the same as S&B and THF and in fact relatively smiliar for SWF. I think that Ledgendary Dreadnaught is pretty good for a SWF to be honest. Several of the rest of the ED either give benefits to the Two Handed Fighting feats or benefit two weapon fighting due to having more triggers or extra damage for e.g. shadowdancer has more sneak damage for a two weapon melee. I do not feel this is as major an issue as you put forth although perhaps the two handed fighting bumps in the EDs should also benefit the SWF.

Edit: the ability scores in the EDs do benefit SWF twice as much...

[Lauf]

They already do, on Lamannia. While Swashbuckler doesn't innately count Scimitar as a light weapon, having the Tempest ability that makes Scimitars count as Light weapons will allow you to use a Scimitar in Swashbuckling stance. If you've observed that this is not working in the current Lamannia build, please file a bug report.

The question Vargouille was answering was "Are you going to change all Scimitars to be light/finesseable weapons", which we are not doing.

You misunderstood my question, allow me to rephrase:

light weapons gain advantages while swashbuckling. that is to say the weapons gain better crit profiles/multipliers, a benefit which changes from weapon to weapon.
scimitar, not being innately a light weapon, does not appear on that list, and as a weapon, does not benefit from swashbuckling (although as you've mentioned, a bard/ranger could still be in swashbuckling stance with it)

my question is, are scimitars that *do* qualify as light weapons not on the list of weapon bonuses by design, or is it merely an omission on your part that will be fixed later on? (I'm assuming the fix would be to grant them the same bonuses as the rapiers get, as they are essentially identical)

hope my question is clearer this time, and thank you for answering.

[MangLord]

I think that Ledgendary Dreadnaught is pretty good for a SWF to be honest.

When I tested a pure bard on Lamm, I barely had enough feats to take Empower Heal, three SWF feats, Quicken and Precision (On a DEX build with heroic TR, undead and constructs in mind). I may have forgotten a feat, maybe Enchantment Focus (which I'll need for CC to supplement my melee capabilities, Fascinate is awesome but insanely slow. I assume I may want Heighten to augment Shout and Greater Shout for elites, which is another feat expenditure). Needless to say, it was a tight fit without adding in cleave. Popping in enough STR for cleaves would weaken a DEX build that wants high reflex saves. (I can't see why I wouldn't want two rogue levels early, to act as a trapper and gain evasion early) Some fighter levels would help with feats, but I wanted to test the tree as it applied to Bard, rather than multiclassing it off the bat. Honestly, I'm not sure I want cleave, given that it would break Fascinate for enemies in range. I'd rather take them out one at a time and CC again when needed. I'm hoping SWF is enough to cope for the feat expenditure. It seems ok on Lammania against defenseless opponents.

Given that LD is wholly dependent on cleaves, I may rethink that build. I was thinking in terms of a heroic TR, quite honestly. LD weakens a bit without cleave and great cleave in conjunction. It would require a painful sacrifice of Empower Heal, at the least. I just can't do without Quicken on any character that needs to self heal, especially a melee without a huge HP pool. (Run Forrest Run!) A good devotion item is cool (Shamanic Fetish is my go-to), but it only goes so far without Empower Heal. Playing the role of a pinch healer in a PUG without Empower Heal is pretty tough, especially when using mass spells. I don't plan on bringing a bard into epics, because I just don't think swashbuckler has enough to contribute significantly to the difficulty level of even an EH PUG. I'm looking at this PrE primarily as a means to get players through bard life without wanting to quit the game. I've been holding off on bard life ever since carrying my guild leaders' stone through quite a few quests while he was working on his, pre U19. It seemed insanely gimpy to the point of ridiculousness, and somehow got worse with the enhancement pass.

If the PrE is built with epics in mind, all the better. It has the potential for good dodge bonuses, high crit chance (not helpful without Precision feat and epic black scales at end game) and everything that's important at end game, but just feels like it falls short with the reliance on CC for the best the tree has to offer (Coup de Grace). Again, Fascinate is terrific if you have a party that is aware you're singing and not instantly ruining it with Cometfalls, AOE spells and great cleaves. Maybe the devs are planning to overhaul enemy saves and attack bonuses for epics? Who knows? It would greatly help the viability of important game mechanics for a variety of build options. Until they do, AC and DC checks are basically worthless past 25.

[lain5246]

I feel that it is wrong that swashbucklers are unable to swashbuckle with the most common pirate weapon.

[thegreatneil]

I feel that it is wrong that swashbucklers are unable to swashbuckle with the most common pirate weapon.

Scurvy?

[MangLord]

I don't quite understand the hangup on scimitars as light weapons. Yes, I do consider a cutlass to be a scimitar in game terms, and i do consider a cutlass to be synonymous with a swashbuckler. I also consider a rapier to be equally swashbuckly, and it fits within the established game mechanics without adding a whole new set of code based off a specific PrE stance. We don't have sabers or black powder pistols, either. Aside from breaking zombie DR, why would anyone waste three levels in ranger when a rapier has the same crit range? Its not like zombies are so common that you can't just deal with a rapier as an all purpose weapon. Once you get to Vale spiders, Wheeps and Rakshasa, you'll be wanting that rapier for piercing DR. If I were to play an aerenal elf or drow, my racial rapier bonuses would equalize most of the zombie DR as to make switching to a slashing weapon a waste of time. I know that after a few levels, my dwarf fighter greataxe kensei would do more damage with a greataxe against skeletons than he would with the DR bypass on a non-specialized maul. If you look at your combat log, yellow damage is generally much milder than we expect, and shouldn't be a source of panic. I feel like it's better to keep swinging and paying attention to the task at hand than to waste time switching weapons.

[Seikojin]

You misunderstood my question, allow me to rephrase:

light weapons gain advantages while swashbuckling. that is to say the weapons gain better crit profiles/multipliers, a benefit which changes from weapon to weapon.
scimitar, not being innately a light weapon, does not appear on that list, and as a weapon, does not benefit from swashbuckling (although as you've mentioned, a bard/ranger could still be in swashbuckling stance with it)

my question is, are scimitars that *do* qualify as light weapons not on the list of weapon bonuses by design, or is it merely an omission on your part that will be fixed later on? (I'm assuming the fix would be to grant them the same bonuses as the rapiers get, as they are essentially identical)

hope my question is clearer this time, and thank you for answering.

I don't think they will get profiles to adjust for them at this time, but it is definitely something to bring up. Bug it actually. Same with other weapons you can make light or finessable.

[SirValentine]

To put it another way: 80 AP should never feel like "enough", and you should always want more. If you spend 80 and feel like further points spent wouldn't really help your character, that's a sign we could do better. Ideally it should be a hard and relevant decision what you decide to spend your 80th AP on.

What if I feel that only 17 points are actually helping my character, and 61 are spent on mostly useless fluff purely as prerequisites to meet the "points spent in tree" thresholds? Oh, and the last 2 points also on mostly useless fluff, simply because I had 2 left over after I got the 17 I wanted, and did not have the 10 I'd need to spend 2 more on something else I wanted because I'd need 8 more for mostly useless fluff prerequisites?

[SirValentine]

This is becoming a bit of a fail, and now we know why. It's because the above written is your position on enhancements.

Let me take a wild guess about you personally Varg: you like pure class characters?

I doubt it.

If that were true, maybe they'd be changing the enhancement system for it not to be so easy for multiclass to cherry-pick class enhancements with little investment (very few class levels), but difficult for pure classes to actually get and use signature higher-tier abilities (due to very restrictive points-in-tree mechanic). Both these points were brought up long before the enhancement pass went live. The enhancement pass was a giant kick the face to pure builds, and no matter how one Bard tree is designed, it's still not changing that fact for every other class.

I would like to see the devs give pure builds some more love, but this wouldn't constitute that.

[maddmatt70]

When I tested a pure bard on Lamm, I barely had enough feats to take Empower Heal, three SWF feats, Quicken and Precision (On a DEX build with heroic TR, undead and constructs in mind). I may have forgotten a feat, maybe Enchantment Focus (which I'll need for CC to supplement my melee capabilities, Fascinate is awesome but insanely slow. I assume I may want Heighten to augment Shout and Greater Shout for elites, which is another feat expenditure). Needless to say, it was a tight fit without adding in cleave. Popping in enough STR for cleaves would weaken a DEX build that wants high reflex saves. (I can't see why I wouldn't want two rogue levels early, to act as a trapper and gain evasion early) Some fighter levels would help with feats, but I wanted to test the tree as it applied to Bard, rather than multiclassing it off the bat. Honestly, I'm not sure I want cleave, given that it would break Fascinate for enemies in range. I'd rather take them out one at a time and CC again when needed. I'm hoping SWF is enough to cope for the feat expenditure. It seems ok on Lammania against defenseless opponents.

Given that LD is wholly dependent on cleaves, I may rethink that build. I was thinking in terms of a heroic TR, quite honestly. LD weakens a bit without cleave and great cleave in conjunction. It would require a painful sacrifice of Empower Heal, at the least. I just can't do without Quicken on any character that needs to self heal, especially a melee without a huge HP pool. (Run Forrest Run!) A good devotion item is cool (Shamanic Fetish is my go-to), but it only goes so far without Empower Heal. Playing the role of a pinch healer in a PUG without Empower Heal is pretty tough, especially when using mass spells. I don't plan on bringing a bard into epics, because I just don't think swashbuckler has enough to contribute significantly to the difficulty level of even an EH PUG. I'm looking at this PrE primarily as a means to get players through bard life without wanting to quit the game. I've been holding off on bard life ever since carrying my guild leaders' stone through quite a few quests while he was working on his, pre U19. It seemed insanely gimpy to the point of ridiculousness, and somehow got worse with the enhancement pass..

I like 16 bard 2 rogue 2 FVS strength based myself. Here it is on a human. Feats: H: Quicken 1. power attack. 3. cleave. 6. SWF. 9. ISWF. 12. Icrit pierce or slash (I like handaxe in LD alot). 15 Great Cleave. 18. Empower Heal. 21. Inspire Excellence. 24. Overwhelming Critical. 27. Force of Personality. Going strength grants a lot more dps with higher strength score possible and higher crit multiplier. This build will still have a 70+ reflex save and mid 80 to mid 100 perform score roll on coup de grace. With Irresistible dance spell and the stun ability in swashbuckler there should be plenty of options to coup to gras every 12 seconds. A bard still does not have any real useful cc spells other then soundburst which requires a heavy investment to land on EE.

[Delacroix21]

I also noticed Kamas don't get a boost by swashbuckler core, that's kinda wierd as they meet all the requirements. Can we get these added to the list? They are literally the least used weapon in ddo, as even monks don't use them. They meet all the requirements for swashbuckling, it's only fair.


Also could we get a taste of the pswf feat? As is now SWFs are going to be forced to take ptwf just for the 5% doublestrike, but that's going to be preety sub par for SWF as the 10% offhand doublestrike will go unused.

[Vargouille]

Also could we get a taste of the pswf feat?

How about scoring vorpal hits on rolls of 19-20?

[FlaviusMaximus]

I also noticed Kamas don't get a boost by swashbuckler core, that's kinda wierd as they meet all the requirements. Can we get these added to the list? They are literally the least used weapon in ddo, as even monks don't use them. They meet all the requirements for swashbuckling, it's only fair.

Kamas are Monk specific weapons and Monk and Bard don't mix. There is no reason for them to be added to the Bard tree.

While the named kama Forrester's Brush Hook would be very appealing if the crit range and multiplier were extended by Swashbuckler (the somewhat standard Swashbuckler crit range/multiplier of 15-20 x3 would actually be 13-20 x4 with that specific weapon assuming that kamas received a +2 range (+4 with improved crit), +1 multiplier in an attempt to pull them equal to other light weapons under Swashbuckler), it seems a bit silly to ask for a weapon type to be added to the list that Bards would never normally use just because one named version of the weapon would presumably do very well with the Swashbuckler crit boosts.

In other words, if the Forrester's Brush Hook didn't exist, this request to add kamas would never get voiced.

How about scoring vorpal hits on rolls of 19-20?

Regular 1,000hp and under vorpals on 19s and 20s would certainly work for me.

[Cleanincubus]

To put it another way: 80 AP should never feel like "enough", and you should always want more. If you spend 80 and feel like further points spent wouldn't really help your character, that's a sign we could do better. Ideally it should be a hard and relevant decision what you decide to spend your 80th AP on.

Like with Rogue Assassin for me. I spend 37 points in the Assassin Tree, and that's it. Spend a useless point on Staff Control, to open the Thief-Acrobat Tree for the sole purpose of getting the Faster Sneak Enhancement. Spend another useless point on Arbalester to unlock the Mechanic Tree, just to Mechanics & Awareness Enhancements. I don't care enough about Poisons or being pushed to use Daggers & Kukris, to waste the AP on those Enhancements to fill my Assassin Tree. Pretty bad when I'd rather spend my leftover AP on useless Race Enhancements than Prestige Enhancements. Maybe something to look into?

[Ovrad]

How about scoring vorpal hits on rolls of 19-20?

Just to clarify, do you mean hits of 19 and 20 gain the vorpal effect (insta-death if below 1000 hp, or 100 damage);
or do you mean rolls of 19 will also trigger the various effects normally occurring on vorpal hits (rolling a 20)? (Things like EDs, Enh, items, etc)

[Ayseifn]

How about scoring vorpal hits on rolls of 19-20?

Seems pretty narrow in scope if it only expands vorpals, meaning you have to bring your own vorpal weapons/effects. It'd also benefit monks more than anyone else IMO, which probably isn't desirable. All the monk trees have some kind of on vorpal ability, Vorpal Strikes as an epic feat, and with their attack speed using the Nightmares weapon mutation could come back into vogue.

Edit: I am assuming it'll be like Perfect TWF though, which applies even if you're wielding a THF weapon or a shield and maybe that isn't the case here.

[bbqzor]

Just to clarify, do you mean hits of 19 and 20 gain the vorpal effect (insta-death if below 1000 hp, or 100 damage);
or do you mean rolls of 19 will also trigger the various effects normally occurring on vorpal hits (rolling a 20)? (Things like EDs, Enh, items, etc)

This. And will it affect weapon procs? I ask because currently things like Maiming are not increased when the multiplier is increased (ie, frenzied berserkers maiming doesnt do more on a 19-20 etc). If it makes all the "on 20" effects into "on 19 and 20" thats a ton different than "1k mobs drop on 19s". So yea.