Update 22 - Swashbuckler Tree Preview Discussion

[Zerkul]

You know what . . . bards could go an update or two with a ridiculously OP abilty like this. Leave it in.

We do get the picture and you obviously do not. All characters can have a crazy amount of versatility right now. I have healed characters with cocoon and ameliorating strike, cced with knockdown or ear smash or etc. Bards are not much more versatile then a monkcher for godsake. There are zero bards in game. Thankfully the devs are throwing bards a bone.

Let's see how it goes. I don't have the right feeling about this, especially for SWF.

Anyway all characters but Barbarians. That is another class that need a degree of revisitation.

...

Just to continue on the feedback route... Do resetting with freed one feat of THF enables you to take SWF? I guess you have to respec ITHF and GTHF first to get SWF...

[srxmk2]

I have tested coup de grace, it works perfectly as described, except for facinated enemies. It seems that only crit on facinated enemies could insta kill them, otherwise it is just a normal hit. Is this WAI?

[Isillion]

"Smooth Flourishes: You get Charisma to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting"

1. The only place I can see Charisma to attack is from PDK and then only for certain weapons. Have I missed something?
2. Or is this working in the same way as divine might (I'm very much guessing not)

[Steelstar]

I have tested coup de grace, it works perfectly as described, except for facinated enemies. It seems that only crit on facinated enemies could insta kill them, otherwise it is just a normal hit. Is this WAI?

Fascinate as a qualifier for Coup de Grace isn't working in the current Lamannia build, it's fixed internally and should be in the next Lamannia build.

[SirValentine]

Tier 5 of Swashbuckler now has a new ability: Coup de Grace. (Multiselector, Melee or Ranged Attack): Make an attack with +3[W]. If it strikes any Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemy, it must make a Fortitude save (d20 + your Perform skill) or die instantly.


Coup makes perfect sense against Sleeping, Paralyzed, or Petrified enemies, as they are Helpless. It should also work against Held creatures. Please add Held to the list.

But why would this work on Fascinated, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, or Mesmerized enemies? They are not helpless. They are not held immobile. They are not unaware. It should not work.

[Propane]

Tier 5 of Swashbuckler now has a new ability: Coup de Grace. (Multiselector, Melee or Ranged Attack): Make an attack with +3[W]. If it strikes any Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemy, it must make a Fortitude save (d20 + your Perform skill) or die instantly.


Coup makes perfect sense against Sleeping, Paralyzed, or Petrified enemies, as they are Helpless. It should also work against Held creatures. Please add Held to the list.

But why would this work on Fascinated, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, or Mesmerized enemies? They are not helpless. They are not held immobile. They are not unaware. It should not work.

Think of it like a baby version of Assassination - as long as you can carefully pick the location to strike and the mob is not jumping around - you can tag them and put them to rest

[N-0cturn]

First of all:

The +100% Ability Bonus does not seem to work at all at the moment. I tried several single-handed weapons with nothing in the off-hand but only the speed bonus applied. The Damage Bonus was 1x Str.

Does this work for anyone? Because if it does I will have a closer look at my build to check what causes this.

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Also:
The 2x Ability Mod is still not really a great idea. It will work but really prefers high strength builds which causes some balance issues. It will be great for characters with power surge, divine might etc. that can push Str to above 80.

It will work I suppose but so would other things. I would suggest to offer a choice to add either the Dex or Int Bonus to Damage.
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Otherwise I really like the swashbuckler pre so far. Coup de Grace is a very nice addition and works great with "Elegant Footwork". Especially in this case it has a nice counter-attack feeling. It is a powerful ability, but hardly enough to make bards overpowered, since its only against trash and one enemy every 12 seconds.

Regarding IPS: That's a huge investment on a bard and I don't thinks it's worth it only to kill disabled enemies in a line. Without Tier 5 of spellsinger and the DC Feats you would not have the DC for spells and would have to line them up with fascinate (This excludes orange mobs).

[Propane]

I moved my LV 24 pure bard over to Lamannia and started to play around - so far I like what I see with the Swashbuckler Tree adding some more DPS and survivability to my bard.

One of the first things I noticed is that my Whisperchain armor might have to go - it limits my allowable DEX and is hurting my standing Dodge! (picked up 10 dodge while using bucker) (15 vs 25)ish

I do not like the idea of more robe wearing peps running around - let bards have more allowable AC to armor AP options at lower tiers (or into core) - so we can leave our robes in the bathhouse!

[Grosbeak07]

I do not like the idea of more robe wearing peps running around - let bards have more allowable AC to armor AP options at lower tiers (or into core) - so we can leave our robes in the bathhouse!

I'll echo Propane's quote above.

I did a pure bard Swashbuckler using a rapier, using the new SWF feats. I went halfling, 16 Dex, 16 Con and 18 CHA and I really liked it.

The damage was decent, I liked the increased movement speed and evasion. The bard was actually a lot of fun to play.

However I feel to take advantage of the potential dodge and dex bonuses, I must run around in PJs as Propane stated.

However I really like where this is going.

[MacDubh]

All in all, a nice option for bards.

Thought the thread had a bid much anoraking on SWF. Suggest make SWF finessable only. Not bothered about 100% stat boost, didn't see it operate..

SWF feats are definitely required for a Swashbuckler bard. Feel the feat heat - ouch.

Swashbuckler barding with a rapier buckler gives nice DPS, knockdown and crits and speed all make it nice. Animations not special.

Swashbuckler bard may struggle against high fort enemies and red nameds, but can clear trash well.
Highlights how poor Warchanter is - Swashbuckler rocks all over this.

Coupe de Grace nice option, but unlikely to be a gamebreaker.

Capstone should perhaps be boosted - but I would like all capstones boosted for pures.

Overall the tree had a lot of synergies and generally worked well. Sorta ignored the options that took spell points though.

Liked it, good job guys, no doubt it will be tweaked a bit after a month of Beta testing on live.

As bards say :- Thank you for the music, the songs I'm singing, thanks for all the joy they're bringing ...

[N-0cturn]

I moved my LV 24 pure bard over to Lamannia and started to play around - so far I like what I see with the Swashbuckler Tree adding some more DPS and survivability to my bard.

One of the first things I noticed is that my Whisperchain armor might have to go - it limits my allowable DEX and is hurting my standing Dodge! (picked up 10 dodge while using bucker) (15 vs 25)ish

I do not like the idea of more robe wearing peps running around - let bards have more allowable AC to armor AP options at lower tiers (or into core) - so we can leave our robes in the bathhouse!

You already get +1 max Dex Bonus per Core ability and 6 more in the Tier 5 Abilities. Seems fine for me.

I think it's more of a design flaw that the max Dex bonus of armors sets a limit for the low dodge cap. But that's a general issue.

You could twist in Lithe from Shadowdancer to solve this issue in your case.

[Nascoe]

I moved my LV 24 pure bard over to Lamannia and started to play around - so far I like what I see with the Swashbuckler Tree adding some more DPS and survivability to my bard.

One of the first things I noticed is that my Whisperchain armor might have to go - it limits my allowable DEX and is hurting my standing Dodge! (picked up 10 dodge while using bucker) (15 vs 25)ish

I do not like the idea of more robe wearing peps running around - let bards have more allowable AC to armor AP options at lower tiers (or into core) - so we can leave our robes in the bathhouse!

Yes, I agree as well. I rolled up a new bard yesterday on Lamannia and even on her, on lvl 7, I had to forgo part of my dodge already (limited to 7% with leather armor i found in the dojo) instead of the 9% I got together by then. I can imagine how limiting this will be for higher lvl characters, and I would really be sad to see even more reason to go payamas/robes.

[Propane]

Highlights how poor Warchanter is - Swashbuckler rocks all over this.

I agree-

The pure CHR based bard I send over to Lamannia was a Spell Singer / Healing Spec build. I spend about 25(ish) points in warchanter to get the freeze ability. (which worked ok)
The build had the 1st TWF feat (mainly to carry a healing lore item in off-hand) and the rest of casting feats.

On Lamannia - I traded the TWF feat for SWF - respected - but spend all the warchanter AP in Swashbuckler.
I now have a fully upgraded buckler from the Cove event, so I spec into the extra 10 dodge while Swashbuckling with buckler...

I might miss the freeze ability , but overall the Swashbucker tree is far and above better than warchanter...

With splashing in the Swashbucker tree - no chance of coming close to allowable dodge in light armor.
If I drop the SpellSinger - I can get more dodge cap - but still now where near enough --> robes

[PermaBanned]

One of the first things I noticed is that my Whisperchain armor might have to go - it limits my allowable DEX and is hurting my standing Dodge! (picked up 10 dodge while using bucker) (15 vs 25)ish

I do not like the idea of more robe wearing peps running around - let bards have more allowable AC to armor AP options at lower tiers (or into core) - so we can leave our robes in the bathhouse!

Epic Duelist Leathers ftw! With a starting MDB of 18 that you can further increase via Items/Augments + enhancements, you can get right up close to the dodge cap and still ware light armor. Also, has anyone found a better Buckler than the Swashbuckler yet?

[Tentaki]

Just wanted to echo the thoughts of some of the others. I do like where this is going, especially with the Coup de Grace. More than the OP arguments, as an ability it just seems like it'll be fun. I will totally be making a sneaky charisma based charmer who stabs people in the back while they're all dancing merrily. It'll be like prom all over again.

(That was a joke.)

I also wanted to add my voice to the "make armor better" arguments as well. I've played melee builds for the past 3-4 lives and every single one of them wore robes. I love robes and it will always be my default choice for armor, but when I do go for a build that needs to wear metal or leather, I'd like for it to be comparable enough so I don't spend every moment thinking, "I wish I were in a robe right now". Adding some dodge % to the cap of armor would likely solve that problem.

[Ryethiel]

SWF Feats appear to be working with Crossbows.

I was testing with a Repeater, and I could swear it was firing faster with Greater SWF. (Hard to tell with Repeaters...)

Also, the enhancement where you can apply an Ability Score to your damage mod will function with a crossbow, so long as you have the SWF Feat. I haven't tested with other random weapons.

The DoubleShot Action Boost does not apply any DoubleShot for me at all. Whether I'm using a thrower, or crossbow, it only puts the icon up in my buffs bar as if it is working, but actually isn't.

Just thought I'd point these out.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I'm thoroughly impressed by this tree.

It has tactics, debuffs, DPS, strong, Bard specific attacks and abilities, defense, strong lower and upper tier abilities, strong lower and upper core abilities - it's just a really smart, well-designed tree. When I go in there to spend points, there's hardly a dud.

I know it isn't 100% finalized yet and some minor revisions will probably still occur, but I still want to congratulate the player base and the developers on a job well done. A lot of really good ideas went into the tree and the SWF feats.

[Xaxx]

Ok so swashbuckler tree teir 2 sword dance ability works as per original desciription 1d20 sonic scailing with spell power, but the ingame lama description is 1d20 per bard level.... so question is... which one is right 1d20 or 1d20 per level... in game currently is 1d20 but with second description, so clarification would be useful by either cleaning up the text or making the ability meet the current text (although tbh 1d20 per bard level scaling with spell power sounds so massively op I don't see how that can really be the intent so im guessing that someone just didn't change the description)

[Hilltrot]

Fascinate as a qualifier for Coup de Grace isn't working in the current Lamannia build, it's fixed internally and should be in the next Lamannia build.

I like the "Now, prepare to die!" ability someone else mentioned. Why can't we have that ability instead. Coup de Grace sounds so Assassin and Barbarian-like. It also seems pretty lame. "Instantly kill someone who is way to easy to kill." Seriously?

Look back at the original thread. I'm not the only one who liked this ability someone mentioned.

So like a swashbuckling character too. Announcing to the enemy who you're going to kill.

If you don't like his, how about letting it be a taunt that gains aggro, but in addition, lowers the enemy's fortification by 50% and increases your critical threat range by 3 or something like that.

Do I really need a "Instantly kill someone who is way to easy to kill." ability? I guess it will increase the XP per minute . . .

[N-0cturn]

Some more detailed Feedback on the tree:

1. Costs:
Currently the tree is very expensive, since the AP costs of many abilities have been raised to 2 AP. Abilities where I feel like the cost should be reduced:

- Sword Dance: It's useful but 1d20 x Spellpower on misses is hardly a game changer.
- On the Mark: +1 damage costs 2 AP, +1 critical damage should be 1 AP (The bonus to the confirmation roll makes no difference)
- Second Skin: Since you already reduced the Ref saves bonus to +6, please change it to 1 AP. It is an awesome ability but also necessary for everyone that wants to wear light armour to make use of the increased Dodge Cap,
- Deflect Arrow: see 2.

Abilities where the Cost is 1 AP but could be 2 AP:

- Dashing Scoundrel: One of the best abilities and only 1 AP
- Coupe de Grâce: see above

2. Feedback on abilities:

- Deflect arrow only has one Tier. Is this working as intended? Because I preferred the approach from the tempest tree. However if it is changed to 3 Tiers please reduce the cost to 1 AP.

- Thank you for increasing the Stun / Knock-down duration of the Tier 2 Swashbuckling Styles. It is quite useful now but not as good as stunning blow/fist, which require more investment.

- En Pointe: This only triggers one attack and not two. I first though that the effects might remain for the next attack but that's not the case as well. With only one hit it feels to weak to waste AP and SP on it.

- Insults: These do not work as described at all: I was never able to affect enemies nearby. The only enemy that is affected is the one that has been selected. Distance or line of sight did not matter. As long as the enemy is selected the debuff will apply after ca. 4 seconds, but only for that enemy not anything else. Also annoying: It is not possible to re-apply the debuff. The effect needs to wear off before it can be applied again. (I tested this with the Scathing Words version)

- Exploit Weakness: I was not sure about this at first but then I found that the Bonus to Crit Range is affected by the improved Critical Feat (not really surprising since this seems to be the case for every enhancement that increases the threat range), Very Nice Ability!

- Fast Movement: 1 % per level was great. 5 % per every 3 levels is even better. However I thought that your first plan to place it between barbarian and Monk was a good one. Now it's the same as monk.

- Blow by Blow: For me it seems like it is currently not affected by Spellpower.

- Resonant Arms: Worked fine for me. I got the numbers I would have expected with Spellpower.

- Coupe de Grâce: I really like the ability and it seems to be working fine. However it might work a bit to well with the Tier 2 Swashbuckling Styles. It is basically a 2-Button death for trash, with a 18 sec timer. All other ways to "disable" an enemy before killing it have some way to counter it.

Fascinate does not work vs Orange named and takes long, Otto's needs to bypass SR and you need 16 bard levels etc.

I am not sure if this combination is too powerful but it's something to keep in mind.