Update 22 - Swashbuckler Tree Preview Discussion

[Nightmanis]

The biggest question I have:

Does the Swashbuckling Stance stack with the Stalwart Defender Stance? Can they both be active at the same time?

[poltt48]

I'm going to make a Barbarian with a single weapon so he benefits more from strength than using his twohanded weapon. He will even attack faster, all benefit. Will be extra cool because he can drink beer with offhand while fighting.

I'm sorry but i give my Thumb down for this.

Might make barbs useful again. Right now no one at all plays the class since they been nerfed to point that there damage is a joke. Want to get laughed at in a group tell them your main is a pure barb listen to the replies.

[Khatzhas]

The fact that using a dagger gives more strength to damage than a great sword it's just wrong no matter what the math is. This thing needs to be changed.

How is that any more wrong than being able to use your Charisma to determine weapon damage?

[Augon]

The changes to the ships are great.

I am wanting to experiment with the same ship my guild has on Sarlona, but that one costs Astral Shards. Is there somewhere on Lamannia server I can find Astral shards just laying around like I can plat?

I love the "Easy" button for the ship buffs, but it does make it rather pointless to actually visit the rooms that are giving those buffs. If the Devs do put the post office and other things like that on the top deck as some have suggested, what would be the point to ever going down stairs? I guess you would need to in order to make a GS weapon at the alters, but other than that, all that wonderful effort the Devs put into making the new buff rooms will go to waste.

I have an idea for this issue. Why not give a secondary use for the buffs. For example the puzzle room could generate a random puzzle from the game that players can solve. once solved another puzzle randomly appears. It would also be cool for the puzzles to not be random, but selectable to allow us to learn and practice puzzles without relying on 3rd part sites to do it. most of the buffs could do similar things. their could be combat simulators like the one in the test dojo, etc.

Thanks team for your hard work!

[Zerkul]

How is that any more wrong than being able to use your Charisma to determine weapon damage?

The emphasis you put into your blows is so effective that your enemy wrongly dodges em exposing himself and resulting in harmless hits to become lethal. One of a million interpretations.

[Augon]

Sorry folks!!!! This was posted on the wrong thread! That's what I get for reading too many different threads at the same time! I tried to edit it or delete it but when I click Edit the wheel just keeps spinning and spinning

The changes to the ships are great.

I am wanting to experiment with the same ship my guild has on Sarlona, but that one costs Astral Shards. Is there somewhere on Lamannia server I can find Astral shards just laying around like I can plat?

I love the "Easy" button for the ship buffs, but it does make it rather pointless to actually visit the rooms that are giving those buffs. If the Devs do put the post office and other things like that on the top deck as some have suggested, what would be the point to ever going down stairs? I guess you would need to in order to make a GS weapon at the alters, but other than that, all that wonderful effort the Devs put into making the new buff rooms will go to waste.

I have an idea for this issue. Why not give a secondary use for the buffs. For example the puzzle room could generate a random puzzle from the game that players can solve. once solved another puzzle randomly appears. It would also be cool for the puzzles to not be random, but selectable to allow us to learn and practice puzzles without relying on 3rd part sites to do it. most of the buffs could do similar things. their could be combat simulators like the one in the test dojo, etc.

Thanks team for your hard work!

[thegreatneil]

The biggest question I have:

Does the Swashbuckling Stance stack with the Stalwart Defender Stance? Can they both be active at the same time?

No they do not. I WAS hoping for a stalwart Defend-a-bard.

[jakeelala]

200% Ability for a single weapon? This is asinine.

You're telling me that wielding a two hander benefits less from strength than a single weapon? I get the attack speed...I guess, but 200% ability score benefit?

Lets see....maul or dagger - which one do you think would sensibly emphasize strength more?

Melee'ing in this game is slowly turning into a comedy bit.

THF should be the hardest hitting combat style in the game, with mass mob damage.

TWF should be the faster hitting weapon style, which excels at single mob damage

SWF should be thrown in the toilet - but it won't, so this needs to be somewhere in between - faster than THF, but slower than TWF, hits a bit harder than TWF, but not as hard as THF. Glancing blow opportunity. Its a in-between style. It CERTAINLY should not benefit more from strength than a two handed wielding fighter or barb.

I disagree. Two Handers are not about hitting the hardest realistically, they are about hitting the most, and especially with the THF. That's what it does, increases the amount of damage you can do to multiple enemies.

SWF is supposed to be the opposite: doing the most possible damage to a single enemy. THF should not by definition have both highest damage numbers, and the most ablity to that high level of damage to many mobs at once. That's not how it's supposed to work. Stabbing someone through the heart with a dagger 4 times should realistically do as much damage as pummeling them and their buddies in a wide arc with a giant weapon you swing in front of you. Maybe more.

I don't think you've made a very compelling argument here.

I will concede you one point: I'm not really sure what TWF is supposed to be good for. But in my mind it should more realistically be a defensive combat style (two weapons to parry and block with) while also allowing for a fair amount of damage because you also have two weapons to fight with. Personally, I think TWF should be a middle ground style. Moderately attrative DEFENSIVE options (would need this massively improved over current implementation) but also with the offensive advantages of offhand strikes.

That would squarely seat each line of fighting feats like this in what I think would be an Ideal DDO World:

One end of Spectrum:
THF good damage, but not the best per target, truly excelling at AoE damage as a combat style. Aginat single target mobs, retains glancing blow damage so as to remain competitive (but not nesc. equal or better than) with TWF and SWF.

TWF PRR, Dodge, and AC if it was useful, and maybe even more deflection like deflect arrows. TWF should be a balance of defensive and offensive boosts. And, it should INCLUDE shields. There should not be other seperate shield fighting feats. A shield IS an off hand weapon. It's just one that's better at blocking blows than rapier, but also worse at doing damage than rapier. So, adjust shields themselves accordingly. But right now when you attack with a weapon and shield, you should be doing TWF chain attaks. THATS HOW YOU FIX S&B. To make it so shield blocking with a Rapier is worse than Shield Blocking with a Shield, give shields some extra defensive buffs when blocking and passively. Easy. But TWF historically and in reality is as much about attacking fast as it is about parrying and blocking things. DDO should change to reflect this.

SWF Highest attack speed and single mob damage possible. Ultimate focus and precision with single weapon leads to the most frequently devastating hits. This is thematic, physically and physiologically accurate, and fun and different than the other two fighting styles.
Other end of the Sprectrum

This could be truly class agnostic, and would make for rich and varied builds even within single class Pure builds. Multiclassing would be even more interesting. Sword and Board would become an actual thing that people would use and enjoy, and they wouldn't be making a party significantly worse for playing and feeling that way. It would differentiate and make clear why someone would go one way or the other with fighting styles. And it would make non heavy armor users not have to be so squishy, like a Pure ranger deserves not to be.

Anyway, food for thought.

Now regarding Swashbuckling, you could just make it so it allows SWF benefits while having a buckler/runearm/orb equipped like it's implemented now for some added flavor/options in the build. It shouldn't however be the only reason for a character to take the SWF line of feats. And there should be other compelling build options in other trees for SWF, but I think their already in things like Kensei which is great for SWF, but less in Monk and Ranger which are focused on TWF.

[MangLord]

The problem with defense is that AC and PRR (to a lesser degree) aren't nearly as useful in epic content as blanket miss chances provided by dodge/blurry/ghostly. Raw DPS is the best solution for epics hands down. Adding a couple points of AC is going to amount to beans by end game, unless your build is entirely focused on defense to the exclusion of everything else. Just look at Ranger Tempest. There's a few AC and PRR boosts in the tree, and it doesn't matter if they're there or not by level 20. Epic to-hit is so high that unless you can get your AC around 170, you will never be missed except on a 1. An 80 AC is like having no armor at all by the time you get to Gianthold. Blur/Ghostly/Dodge is a far better way to go.

On the subject of CHA to damage, I see it as totally logical for a swashbuckling style. CHA would apply to feinting, taunting and distraction, leaving your enemy confused, angry and exposed to mortal strikes. With that method in mind, a high CHA score assumes you can frustrate an enemy into bull rushing his own weight into the point of your waiting dagger. Seems effective to me.

The way I interpret it, STR to damage is raw power, and DEX to damage would imply a keen sense of spatial awareness and the ability to land the point of a rapier directly into the center of a dime. Dwarven CON-to-damage is the only stat damage boost that I think is a bit strange. It makes some sort of sense, in an old-man-strength sort of way, knowing how to leverage weight.

[Nightmanis]

No they do not. I WAS hoping for a stalwart Defend-a-bard.

Well see that just makes my life easier knowing that. I know both are labeled as a defender stance so by that logic it makes sense that they wouldn't stack. I don't think I could justify taking enough stuff in the defender tree for block and cut though without being able to use the stance (since the bard stance is so much better in this situation) so that just means the better things to use are barbarian and rogue for the build.

I'm kind of liking Zerkul's idea though. Barbarian 5+, Bard 3, get Crit rage and Swashbuckler with Balizarde. Since your reflex save will be atrocious you could fit in some fighter for some extra feats and not flinch about losing evasion. Maybe even go with a 16 barb 2 Fighter 2 Rogue if you can't handle that and just ignore Bard simply to have a SWF/THF Bastard sword or Dwarven Waraxe.

Either way it looks like some very interesting builds will be opened up with this whole setup. I'm quite convinced though that at least 4 rogue will be needed for access to Killer because that would just work so incredibly well with that whole setup. 14 Barb 4 Rogue 2 Fighter? What do you get at 14 for a barb in general? I can't imagine it's all that much so maybe just dropping down to have 5-7 rogue would be better. 12 Barb 7 Rogue 1 Fighter Human seems like such an amazing idea. If you have enough feats for it and enough AP maybe even swapping for Divine Might with 1 fvs. I do think though that 3 more haste boosts will be a better benefit for a build even with that 200% stat bonus though so I'd stick with 1 fighter.

[Nascoe]

The changes to the ships are great.

I am wanting to experiment with the same ship my guild has on Sarlona, but that one costs Astral Shards. Is there somewhere on Lamannia server I can find Astral shards just laying around like I can plat?

I love the "Easy" button for the ship buffs, but it does make it rather pointless to actually visit the rooms that are giving those buffs. If the Devs do put the post office and other things like that on the top deck as some have suggested, what would be the point to ever going down stairs? I guess you would need to in order to make a GS weapon at the alters, but other than that, all that wonderful effort the Devs put into making the new buff rooms will go to waste.

I have an idea for this issue. Why not give a secondary use for the buffs. For example the puzzle room could generate a random puzzle from the game that players can solve. once solved another puzzle randomly appears. It would also be cool for the puzzles to not be random, but selectable to allow us to learn and practice puzzles without relying on 3rd part sites to do it. most of the buffs could do similar things. their could be combat simulators like the one in the test dojo, etc.

Thanks team for your hard work!

You can get Lamannia TP from lord poincelot (I think currently its 1000 or 10.000 TP a day you can get from talking to him in the harbor), and then buy AS from the DDO store for them.

[Zerkul]

Well... :P when I said barbarian with single weapon I was doing sarcasm... You know it would be embarrassing running around with full metal jacket muscled halforc wielding a rapier...

I'm updating my personal excel calc sheet for DPS with SWF so, if mathematically it will result superior to THF i''l make a build with it, even if I don't like the idea behind SWF.

I disagree. Two Handers are not about hitting the hardest realistically, they are about hitting the most, and especially with the THF. That's what it does, increases the amount of damage you can do to multiple enemies.

SWF is supposed to be the opposite: doing the most possible damage to a single enemy. THF should not by definition have both highest damage numbers, and the most ablity to that high level of damage to many mobs at once. That's not how it's supposed to work. Stabbing someone through the heart with a dagger 4 times should realistically do as much damage as pummeling them and their buddies in a wide arc with a giant weapon you swing in front of you. Maybe more.

So you talking about precision here, not about strength being applied more. Remember weight of a weapon put emphasis on strength, light weapons on precision and cunning.

[Seikojin]

Log on and test the SWF 200% stat. It sounds powerful but I promise you won't be impressed if your used to playing fully feated out TWF or THF. It's ok, but you can tell with the good weapons it's behind.

I have been and I think for single target fighting, it is just fine. I think however that adding it with the abilities you get from your trees, it makes thf seem a little dated.

[Seikojin]

No they do not. I WAS hoping for a stalwart Defend-a-bard.

Me too, but you can be an undead swashbuckler, or a wolf swashbuckler. Which looks pretty bad when you have 78% speed boost and 60+% doublestrike.

[Khatzhas]

The emphasis you put into your blows is so effective that your enemy wrongly dodges em exposing himself and resulting in harmless hits to become lethal. One of a million interpretations.

You mean like a Bluff check?

[IronClan]

The logical (both from realism and game mechanical standpoint) place for SWF is pin point precision, and high spike damage but low average damage.

TWF double the weapons, Whirling steel = multiple hits effects procs and smooth normalized damage.

THF wide swings, mass, momentum = cleaving, AOE damage.

SWF controled measured awaiting the opening for a lethal strike = high spike damage, less speed, less procs no AOE

Sad that the Devs are mailing it in by settling on attack speed and basically just trampling TWF for their lack of imagination, and unwillingness to listen to the numerous suggestions of making it spike damage. Oh well melee is so lame in DDO I've stopped playing them anyway.

If you want lethal in DDO choose a casting class, otherwise prepare to saw stuff down.

[Cetus]

I disagree. Two Handers are not about hitting the hardest realistically, they are about hitting the most, and especially with the THF. That's what it does, increases the amount of damage you can do to multiple enemies.

SWF is supposed to be the opposite: doing the most possible damage to a single enemy. THF should not by definition have both highest damage numbers, and the most ablity to that high level of damage to many mobs at once. That's not how it's supposed to work. Stabbing someone through the heart with a dagger 4 times should realistically do as much damage as pummeling them and their buddies in a wide arc with a giant weapon you swing in front of you. Maybe more.

I don't think you've made a very compelling argument here.

I will concede you one point: I'm not really sure what TWF is supposed to be good for. But in my mind it should more realistically be a defensive combat style (two weapons to parry and block with) while also allowing for a fair amount of damage because you also have two weapons to fight with. Personally, I think TWF should be a middle ground style. Moderately attrative DEFENSIVE options (would need this massively improved over current implementation) but also with the offensive advantages of offhand strikes.

That would squarely seat each line of fighting feats like this in what I think would be an Ideal DDO World:

One end of Spectrum:
THF good damage, but not the best per target, truly excelling at AoE damage as a combat style. Aginat single target mobs, retains glancing blow damage so as to remain competitive (but not nesc. equal or better than) with TWF and SWF.

TWF PRR, Dodge, and AC if it was useful, and maybe even more deflection like deflect arrows. TWF should be a balance of defensive and offensive boosts. And, it should INCLUDE shields. There should not be other seperate shield fighting feats. A shield IS an off hand weapon. It's just one that's better at blocking blows than rapier, but also worse at doing damage than rapier. So, adjust shields themselves accordingly. But right now when you attack with a weapon and shield, you should be doing TWF chain attaks. THATS HOW YOU FIX S&B. To make it so shield blocking with a Rapier is worse than Shield Blocking with a Shield, give shields some extra defensive buffs when blocking and passively. Easy. But TWF historically and in reality is as much about attacking fast as it is about parrying and blocking things. DDO should change to reflect this.

SWF Highest attack speed and single mob damage possible. Ultimate focus and precision with single weapon leads to the most frequently devastating hits. This is thematic, physically and physiologically accurate, and fun and different than the other two fighting styles.
Other end of the Sprectrum

This could be truly class agnostic, and would make for rich and varied builds even within single class Pure builds. Multiclassing would be even more interesting. Sword and Board would become an actual thing that people would use and enjoy, and they wouldn't be making a party significantly worse for playing and feeling that way. It would differentiate and make clear why someone would go one way or the other with fighting styles. And it would make non heavy armor users not have to be so squishy, like a Pure ranger deserves not to be.

Anyway, food for thought.

Now regarding Swashbuckling, you could just make it so it allows SWF benefits while having a buckler/runearm/orb equipped like it's implemented now for some added flavor/options in the build. It shouldn't however be the only reason for a character to take the SWF line of feats. And there should be other compelling build options in other trees for SWF, but I think their already in things like Kensei which is great for SWF, but less in Monk and Ranger which are focused on TWF.

You didn't think I made a compelling argument by providing a simple outline to which the three styles can generally conform to, but you suggest that all of those TWF builds out there, with all of their hours of grinding for mats and weapons to get turned into more defensive builds now? I'd rage over that.

THF: Highest damage *numbers* and mass AoE damage with glancing blows

TWF: Highest attack *rate* - excels at single target DPS and proccing weapon effects (e.g., mortal fear)

SWF: Hybrid style, may land glances if using bastard sword/daxe, attack speed is intermediate between the two, damage numbers intermediate - versatile for off stat characters with swashbuckler enhancements.

SWF should be an intermediate versatile fighting style that can do good damage, it should never out DPS a THF or TWF character. Nor should it receive more benefit from strength than a **** greataxe wielder. Its stupid, and its insulting the integrity of the THF/TWF systems already in place.

[jakeelala]

You didn't think I made a compelling argument by providing a simple outline to which the three styles can generally conform to, but you suggest that all of those TWF builds out there, with all of their hours of grinding for mats and weapons to get turned into more defensive builds now? I'd rage over that.

THF: Highest damage *numbers* and mass AoE damage with glancing blows

TWF: Highest attack *rate* - excels at single target DPS and proccing weapon effects (e.g., mortal fear)

SWF: Hybrid style, may land glances if using bastard sword/daxe, attack speed is intermediate between the two, damage numbers intermediate - versatile for off stat characters with swashbuckler enhancements.

SWF should be an intermediate versatile fighting style that can do good damage, it should never out DPS a THF or TWF character. Nor should it receive more benefit from strength than a **** greataxe wielder. Its stupid, and its insulting the integrity of the THF/TWF systems already in place.

You just keep saying swf should suck but i think its because you like twf, not because you have a good argument. In reality fighting with two weapons is hard and does not make someone more dangerous. In fact historically, as a combat style, twf is almost always defensive and offensive. Block parry block strike strike strike.

I respect that you have a different opinion abput what you want, but your argument for how to implement swf makes no sense and would be nothing but a waste of development time. No one would use it.

And i never said twf should have bad damage, i said it should he lower than swf, and higher than thf. They should all be clustered and none should do that much more damage than the other. They all cost 3 feats and so should have similar bonuses at end of the day.

Building a line of feats philosophically around mortal fear is a bad idea.

None of the styles should he built with a single weapon like a bastard sword in mind. I do think any single weapon should be affected however, not just finessibles. And no i dont think Swf should be a niche thing costing 3 feats just for a swashbuckler. It should universally attractive to builds as a playstyle. Otherwise its a waste.

Also what does stats have to do with it?

[jakeelala]

Well... :P when I said barbarian with single weapon I was doing sarcasm... You know it would be embarrassing running around with full metal jacket muscled halforc wielding a rapier...

I'm updating my personal excel calc sheet for DPS with SWF so, if mathematically it will result superior to THF i''l make a build with it, even if I don't like the idea behind SWF.

So you talking about precision here, not about strength being applied more. Remember weight of a weapon put emphasis on strength, light weapons on precision and cunning.

I think the weight of a weapon puts the emphasis on inaccuracy and range of attacks (big weapon means big range). Strength, short of hte strength required to wield it, isn't that important. Being physically large enough to move it around quickly is important, but that again isn't necessarily strength based. It's physics.

Stabbing someone with a rapier and only piercing the skin versus having the rapier come out of their back is about strength.

Anyway, everyone in DDO has at least 18 strength and can lift 2 tons. So this isn't a good way to have the argument.

[HAL]

I disagree. Two Handers are not about hitting the hardest realistically, they are about hitting the most, and especially with the THF. That's what it does, increases the amount of damage you can do to multiple enemies.

SWF is supposed to be the opposite: doing the most possible damage to a single enemy. THF should not by definition have both highest damage numbers, and the most ablity to that high level of damage to many mobs at once. That's not how it's supposed to work. Stabbing someone through the heart with a dagger 4 times should realistically do as much damage as pummeling them and their buddies in a wide arc with a giant weapon you swing in front of you. Maybe more.

I don't think you've made a very compelling argument here.

I will concede you one point: I'm not really sure what TWF is supposed to be good for. But in my mind it should more realistically be a defensive combat style (two weapons to parry and block with) while also allowing for a fair amount of damage because you also have two weapons to fight with. Personally, I think TWF should be a middle ground style. Moderately attrative DEFENSIVE options (would need this massively improved over current implementation) but also with the offensive advantages of offhand strikes.

I completely agree with these points, fighting styles in DDO bear little resemblance to RL. In TWF the off-hand weapon does damage rarely. It is mostly for blocking or feinting. People will say that DDO is a game so the fighting doesn't have to be like RL. This is true but it results in this type of problem where combat is non-intuitive and its hard to fit in a new style because the existing styles already do it better.