Dual Celestia Build Options (help me decide)

[Gabrion]

The general idea for my next TR is dual celestias + AoV shield of condemnation to amp light/alignment dmg, plus trying to mix in some other things that amp dmg (warpriest smite weakness and probably Exalted Angel Rebuke Foe). Things to know about my build plan:

-Race probably drow (32 point build)
-Planning 12 levels of FvS
-All +5 tomes
-1x Monk, 1x Sorc, 1x FvS past lives
-No Epic Past Life feats
-Sticking with STR build both for OC and because Divine Might buffs it

I'd like to play this character at epic levels, no more heroic TRs in the near future. Ideally I'd like the build to be theoretically capable of some EE content, even though it may take a while to acquire him the right items and knowledge of some of the quests. Ok so here are the two competing build concepts I have right now. I will appreciate any feedback and I'm also open to entirely different concepts that fit the outline above.

12 FvS/6 Wiz/2 Monk

Ok this is a vamp form build and was my initial plan - let me explain. I acquired a lvl 20 and lvl 24 version of the Robe of Shadows last fall and have really wanted to run a melee PM ever since, but I've been warforged. I really want to see the full impact of boon of undeath for myself. The way I look at it is as basically a stacking 15(ish) DR after all other defensive numbers have been calculated. By my math it shouldn't be too hard to reach 100 PRR with this build. So factor in 15 DR from EE Ring of Djinn, -25 enemy dmg from Purification, take 59% dmg after PRR, then subtract another 15 from boon. So on a 100 dmg swing from enemy, take ~20 dmg.

Of course all this is after factoring in Incorp 10%, Conceal 50%, dodge 25%. Speaking of which, the six levels of wizard do at least offer displacement, though I haven't played enough lately to know how much dispel is thrown around. This build also has self haste, which I personally prefer to just cast (even every minute) over taking an epic feat. The monk levels are there for evasion (though yes, I realize this is the glaring weakness of the build...reflex save simply won't be high enough to ensure usefulness of evasion), two feats, and stances. Speaking of which, my character builder version manages to pick up as far as Master of Forms while still getting all the TWF and prereqs for OC (this is the same for both builds). Wiz levels also offer quicken and maximize for free, which will be good for self healing (via harm in this case), any SLAs picked up from destinies, as well as the few dmg spells that will be cast (divine punishment for instance). Last but not least, I like the flavor of being a vampire, but doing all light/good dmg.

12 FvS/6 Monk/2 Pally

Ah now this looks more like a serious build right off the bat. Probably not a lot needs to be said...Monk 6 gives higher incorp chance than the above, but with no displacement spell it's usually only going to be at 20% concealment. Monk also gives effectively 2 more feats (no need to take Adept of forms, plus the lvl 6 martial arts feat), more saves, and just general monk goodness. Pally obviously gives +cha to saves, which will be nearly as high as STR for this build, which makes evasion much more viable. More enhancement points to play with as well, since the first two tiers of pally don't offer much I want. High HP, higher BAB (though I don't think this is huge since I will be running some sort of BAB=character level effect), higher saves, etc. In this case obviously the heal spell would be taken instead of harm. Speaking of healing...he would have a lot more options than undead for sure (could make use of ameliorating strike, sacred ground, etc).

On the topic of defenses from getting hit, I actually think this one is behind a bit though. Blur+Shadow Veil+Dodge=45% chance to be hit, whereas Displacement+Ghostly+Dodge=33.75% chance to be hit. Plus the undead build above has the mentioned extra 15(ish) DR from boon of undeath as well as a tad more PRR from bone armor. On top of all that, this build would mean me not getting to use my Robe of Shadow, which I'd really like to do.

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Ok I think I probably gave more info than needed for some general feedback, but what do you guys think? Is it crazy to go with the first build concept over the second? Any advice is welcome, even "your whole concept is stupid," just please give some reasoning.

[Saekee]

Have you seen the Sohei thread?

I have seen many builds that go to 12 wiz for wraith form--there is even one now with 3 monk and is a killer shuriken thrower
Not sure how much you get out of favored soul, since the inherent DR breaking qualities of the Celestias are messed up by the Favored weapon buff. If it is for the Condemnation buff to light damage, you only need 3 levels to get it. Something to consider.

[Gabrion]

Have you seen the Sohei thread?

I have seen many builds that go to 12 wiz for wraith form--there is even one now with 3 monk and is a killer shuriken thrower
Not sure how much you get out of favored soul, since the inherent DR breaking qualities of the Celestias are messed up by the Favored weapon buff. If it is for the Condemnation buff to light damage, you only need 3 levels to get it. Something to consider.

Thank you for the feedback.

So my "original" TWF undead build was indeed planning to use wraith form, but at some point I started thinking other T5 enhancement lines offer more to this type of character than going that deep in PM. And I probably wouldn't end up with as good a burst heal option as having heal/harm. It is still something I'm interested in, I'll keep it in mind.

And no, I hadn't seen that thread...need to read the multiclass forum more I guess. Good read though, and I learned something about fists of light/magic backlash interaction (very interesting). That made me wonder though if the same might be true about boon of undeath...maybe getting hit my a mob could cause magic backlash? That makes the PM build more interesting...in fact if I can't find evidence of someone on here trying it, I might do so just to see.

As to the question of FvS, I was sort of planning to be in Exalted Angel as my primary destiny. I know it might not seem 100% optimal, but a few things are very appealing to me. Number one is that the Epic Moment is a free self rez that also gives a good steriod - +100 light dmg/hit (as well as all the other goodies) is nice for a light based TWF build. And the rez is important to me because I'm still coming back new to a lot of the content and my experience soloing EH (currently as a pure monk) has made me pretty humble. When I make the big mistakes that end with me dead, it's nice to know I'd have one get out of jail free card. So to the point, I think 12 FvS works well with EA because laser beams charge Endless Ardor. Other benefits include heal/harm spell (one or the other depending if undead or not), +3 Divine Power, access to Divine Might for full BAB (if not spending the point in Warpriest or using the Crusader ED), and Divine Punishment (good vs bosses IMO, especially with the amp dmg focus of the build). I hear you though on Righteous/Wrathful weapons not synergizing well with Celestia builds, which is a real bummer. It would be especially nice to get the extra 3d4 light dmg from wrathful, but like you said, that line breaks Celestia.

Hmm, now I'm really thinking about the boon of undeath/magic backlash interaction...I want to know more if anyone has tested!

[Saekee]

well, it interrupts Celestia's DR properties, but otherwise, it will still work. Just becomes very inconvenient...

[Gabrion]

well, it interrupts Celestia's DR properties, but otherwise, it will still work. Just becomes very inconvenient...

Hmm I may misunderstand how this works since I haven't gotten to test Celestia as a warpriest yet. I assumed when people said it loses it's DR breaking properties, it's because the base dmg is no longer typed as "light." Is this not the case? And actually just a few minutes ago I looked at it on DDO wiki and saw an update someone posted 1-5-2014 stating that the whole interaction with shield of condemnation doesn't work anyway, so I may be SOL. This would make sense with what I have seen though - Celestia has broken pretty much every DR for me, but when I fight vamps, who are supposed to be vulnerable to light dmg, I don't ever see purple numbers. This is overall very sad.

[mna]

Hmm I may misunderstand how this works since I haven't gotten to test Celestia as a warpriest yet. I assumed when people said it loses it's DR breaking properties, it's because the base dmg is no longer typed as "light." Is this not the case?

Well, sort of but not quite -

Celestia as base has damage type "light", nothing else.

With Enchant Weapons (the +1 from friendly artificers/warchanters or from a scroll) on it, it becomes "light, magic" and no longer breaks much any DR. And this latter part ("light, magic" not breaking DR) is what I still think is a bug, but there was a comment supposedly from a dev at some point that it looked too complicated on the internal coding side to expect to get a working fix... of course that was a while ago, and I don't know what they've been doing with the code internally since then.


Anyway, I do have a Drow warpriest that took a Celestia from the raider box (one of them - it got two boxes). I tested it back then and it had this problem, haven't tested again.

Even so, there's plenty of stuff to put points into, just means you don't want to have points in the favored weapon line while using Celestia. My spellpower took a hit when I did that changeover at 23, because my offhand shortsword had a red slot with devotion in it, and the implement bonus... well...



And about the damage from Celestia not being influenced by things that make things vulnerable to light - well, that again is not quite so simple.
Base damage is apparently unaffected, yes, but the Radiance and Greater Sunburst do seem to go purple occasionally. Then again in my case (cleric, not fvs) that's not a light-specific thing but from Smite Weakness stacking up some Vulnerable, the fire damage from the Fiery Detonation goes red too. (Oh, and Volcano's Edge right after a Smite Weakness does a bit over 100, purple.)


(Actually I'm not sure if the base damage is affected or not but the numbers certainly don't change color - sort of unscientifically seem to get bigger numbers on the base too, the next swing after a Smite, but I could well be just looking at things funny there.)

[serthcore]

U can look at the build in my sig, its human with longswords but can be easily adapted to drow w/celestias. It has a strong casting spell dmg, not sure if you want to include it aswell.
And i prefer the 12 fvs / 6 monk / 2 paladin of your options. Shadow veil and specially FoL are gonna help a lot

[Blackheartox]

Can always pick elf and go with displace mark, if you get extend its quite nice surival boost there
/if you dont have gsteel clickies etc

Lose some dps for better defense, not a bad deal imo

[Munkenmo]

here is a thread that shows the issue with drow favored souls using celestias. It will completely eliminate all the nice bonuses your celestias get to ligh damage from the AOV tree.

[Gabrion]

U can look at the build in my sig, its human with longswords but can be easily adapted to drow w/celestias. It has a strong casting spell dmg, not sure if you want to include it aswell.
And i prefer the 12 fvs / 6 monk / 2 paladin of your options. Shadow veil and specially FoL are gonna help a lot

Thanks, I actually came across that while researching and it was very informative. My big take away was that it can make sense to go CHA>STR, given STR will be pumped anyway and CHA benefits that sort of build in multiple other ways.

Can always pick elf and go with displace mark, if you get extend its quite nice surival boost there
/if you dont have gsteel clickies etc

Lose some dps for better defense, not a bad deal imo

Hmm had actually forgotten about that source of displacement. I think this go round though, it would be hard to fit the enhancements. Either build I end up using every last point without getting to dip into racial lines.

here is a thread that shows the issue with drow favored souls using celestias. It will completely eliminate all the nice bonuses your celestias get to ligh damage from the AOV tree.

Haha I actually came across that one as well. Overall I'm pretty sad about a few of the things I found out about Celestias. First is the problem of any +enhancement breaking the DR breaking quality, like that thread points out with Warpriest. Second is that while the base damage is "light," it doesn't seem to be treated as such for the purpose of increased dmg against light vulnerable enemies (vamps, enemies with shield of condemnation debuff). All that aside, a) They are still a great DPS weapon at lvl 23 (which can be replaced with thunderforged or even EE Elemental Fury later) and b) I got them for free from Raider's Reward, so I can't complain too much.

I really appreciate all the feedback here. I actually TRed last night and will be taking the 12 FvS/6 Wiz/2 Monk route. Now don't laugh as it looks like I didn't take the recommendations seriously, but the truth is I'm actually pretty convinced by everything I've read that the FvS/Monk/Pally split is the way to go. I'm intially running the other one because of one issue that came up in the thread that I wan't to test...interaction of backlash with boon, which I figure I might as well be undead to give it a whirl. If the build doesn't perform well, it shouldn't be terribly hard to use a few lesser hearts and switch to the other. I should be lvl 20 again by this evening or tomorrow, so I'll let you all know how it goes.

[Gabrion]

Got the build to 20 yesterday and started zerging some EN stuff (VoNs and Menechtarun) just to see how it performs. It definitely "works," though jury's still out on exactly how well until I cap and do some real content. Thanks again for the feedback.

Oh and for anyone just dying to know, Backlash and Boon of Undeath have no interaction.

[Gabrion]

On more comment about this build. Maybe it's already well known, but it appears the sunburst proc on celestia doesn't work while in undead form. My testing wasn't 100% scientific, but shortly after hitting 23 it dawned on me that I hadn't seen the AoE visual from sunburst since I equipped my Celestias. I killed the test dummy about 10 times and never saw it. So I turned off vamp form thinking it could be related, and still didn't see anything. Then logged out (not in undead form) and back in and just like that I was getting suburst procs vs the dummy left and right. Turned vamp form back on and saw zero in the next five or so dummy kills. Just one more thing that bums me out about that weapon.

I think I'll make TF soon though. Speaking of which, if there's so sort of player interaction with those burst procs (maybe just undead form?), Wrath of Shadows could actually be really good. I'll probably stay with this class split at least long enough to test that, then may transition to monk/pally version.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

From my experience, AoV aura does not work with celestias at all atm. Also, strangely, warpriest smite vulnerability does not seam to apply to celestias main dmg.

Gonna test it more later today when i log in to make sure i did not break it somehow. Maybe my bad...


Anyway, keep in mind while planning that you should not expect AoV buff to be any better than one stack in avg - probably less with usual defensive layers. Kind of an underwhelming proc rate.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

K i have been testing it a bit today and i'm pretty sure i was wrong... Seams AoV shield of condemnation debuff does work, it just doesn't make the numbers purple.

It is hard to be sure... It's a pain getting that counters high enough to be able to notice and once you get it you don't get as much swings as you would like. But today i managed to get all 5 charges and the dps change was large enough that it couldn't have been just a bunch of good rolls.