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Thread: Swashbuckler

  1. #341
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    What do people think of a divine grace like ability? Tier 1-3, charisma to saves, or charisma to reflexes. (as well as charisma to hit and damage)

    This would obviously help bards, but would also help barbs-giving them an available splash.

    If they gave divine grace, and boosted Aqua Vitae a lot, it might be very useful to barbs to splash, as Aqua Vitae might work while raged? Although I question the need for a healing enhancement on a bard anyway; healing is one thing I never feel I'm lacking.
    Last edited by BoBoDaClown; 04-25-2014 at 10:37 PM.
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  2. #342
    Community Member Leclaire1's Avatar
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    Default A Nice Tree, Absolutely Needs a Dex to Damage Option

    Unlike some of the haters here I think this is a great tree. Sure, its not the highest DPS in the game, but it exists to give bards decent DPS options in addition to their own formidable and unique abilities and buffs, and in this it succeeds, while being true to lore. While sawshbucklers in pnp are typically either fighters or rogues, I find this interesting precisely because it is a bard PRE. Bards add some unique things to a party, but on account of the incredible weakness of the current Warchanter tree (not sure if there is a worse tree in ddo currently), there is no compelling reason to play a bard who does anything other than CC. I think this gives a very compelling reason, and I like most of the abilities here, and especially that they have made all light weapons viable. A couple of comments however.

    1) THERE ABSOLUTELY NEEDS TO BE A DEX TO DAMAGE OPTION. I won't apologize for the caps here. In my view, this is non-negotiable from both a gameplay and a lore perspective. One should not have to splash rogue, ranger, or the OP monk class to get this (esp. since staying pure grants evasion, which depends on good dex to be awesome). To begin with, all of these abilities require finessable weapons, which should reward a dex-based style of play. Secondly. Bards already depend on a variety of abilities to be effective, and as such we are going to want to be able to dump strength and gain survivabilitiy through boosting the **** out of AC and saves, which won't happen if we have to worry about strength in addition to having decent dexterity, charisma, and constittution. Allowing for dex builds also demolishes some of the arguments regarding the supposed weakness of the tree, as dex builds have incredbile survivability over STR builds. I play a lot of dex builds myself (my planned completionist project includes almost every class life as a dex build), and while they trade in a small bit of DPS to STR builds (as they should) what they gain in survivability far outweighs it. As such, making dex builds the norm for swashbucklers will buff this PRE to where it needs to be. From a lore perspective, of course, a swashbuckley is an agile warrior to kills via precision and not bruce, so dex build is only appropriate and an str build is innappropriate. At the end of the day, if it is dex -based as it should be I'll make my first bard and play this PRE. If its not dex-based I may run it and splash it with three levels of rogue (using the t3 core on assassin to get my dex-to-damage) for a bard life on my main, but otherwise won't bother with the tree or the class. I imagine I'm not alone in this sentiment.

    2) This is really more about a pass on some bard spells than the PRE, but as others have said all this sonic spellpower would be so much more helpful if bard sonic spells didn't suck so incredibly badly. All the spellpower in the world might buff these melee abilities nicely, but it doesn't have any synergy in helping the gimpy bard sonic spells which don't scale. Please add cyclonic blast (the only currently useful sonic spell, excepting the stun from soundburst) to the list and maker the damage from sonic blast and shout scale a bit with level. The dice shouldnt be as high as other elemental types (since sonic is harder to resist), but they shouldn't lack scaling as they cirrently do.



    Also, +10 to the plan of adding a single-weapon fighting style! This is a valid and even common option in pnp, and I've always thought it incredibly limiting that in ddo an empty offhand means nothing more than gimp. You should definitely add a line of single-weapon fighting feats available to all players which you should release with update 22 and this PRE. Single-weapon fighting needs to add some bonuse to damage (if for no othe reason than so that this style doesnt end up way behind the other two) while also adding unique DPS bonuses. I think increasing the enhancement bonus of the weapon (in such a way that it stacks with the abilities of this PRE and the warpriest tree) is very interesting, along with some more dodge (and perhaps an increase in the dodge cap at t3) and some MEANIGFUL fortification bypass. By meaningful I mean 2% per tier sucks and won't cut it. 10 % per tier, OTOH, would be good. A small bit of AC wouldn't hurt either. As such, my suggestion would be that SWF woud add +1 enhancement bonus to a finessable weapon, +2 dodge and doublestrike, a + 1 shiled bonus to AC, and +10 fortification bypass per tier, with an increase of 5 in the dodge cap at Greater Single Weapon Fighting. That might be worth taking. Thanks for the idea, and eager to hear on how this part of the system is worked out.
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  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardoor View Post
    What does a bard do that can hurt a boss like no other class?
    Adds damage to every single hit of every single ally beating on that boss. For a start.

    Regarding the power of the tree, I don't want to see this tree made so powerful that it is the only reasonable option for a Bard. I'd rather it be equivalent to the other Bard enhancement trees and the power of the Bard class in total brought up. (By improving the other trees, or the base class.)

    Currently, TWF and THF styles seem to be considerably better than Sword & Board in terms of capability. (The extra protection from shield is not high enough to make up for the loss in effectiveness.)
    If SWF style is made equivalent to TWF/THF, are you going to take steps to ensure that a S&B warrior isn't better off simply dumping her shield?

    In terms of actual mechanics, I'd suggest feats for bonus to tactics DC since the off-hand is free to shove, grab etc, additional damage (perhaps adding half of Cha or Dex bonus to Str-based weapons and half of Cha or Str bonus to Dex-based damage), and defence (such as making combat expertise similar to the way Power Attack works for THF: doubles the equivalent effect.)
    I'd also suggest a feat giving a toggleable stance which disables TWF, allowing you to hold a caster stick in your off-hand without trying to hit stuff (and suffering TWF penalties) with it, and allowing SWF style while holding (but not attacking) with it.
    Last edited by Khatzhas; 04-25-2014 at 11:13 PM.

  4. #344
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    Hay peps –

    A few thoughts I would like to share / have people chew on…

    I always consider a swashbuckler the master of finesse fighting – focusing on speed and movement – picking the correct place and time to strike – almost like a surgeon. Fighting is dance!

    In-game play – I would like forgo the extra feats and such and have the “swashbuckling” toggle work along these lines…

    When fighting with a single finess-able weapon (empty second hard)– your use of movement and leverage is unmatched – you are focused on finding the openings in your foes defense and take advantage of them! – you gain 2 x your stat for damage (STR/CHR – whatever). You gain 10% double strike, +1 to reflex saves, and 1% dodge for each core level.

    When fighting with any finess-able weapon (or buckler) in your off hand (both hands) you are focused on side stepping harm and then countering! You gain 2% dodge for core level, you gain AC = to 3 x the offhand item enchantment value. You gain 5% double strike and +2 to reflex saves for each core level. (and get the effects (devotion, et al) of the off-hand weapon. The user for goes most / all of the extra offense of the offhand weapon to use the offhand weapon for defense only…

    Evasion should be a core bonus at LV 12, Improved Evasion at LV 18.

    Thanks for readying and providing feedback!

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  5. #345
    Community Member Oliphant's Avatar
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    I would love a new (quicker) 1HF fighting animation sequence for this PRE, a fighting style with the flair of a legendary pirate

    Make it look the coolest!
    Last edited by Oliphant; 04-26-2014 at 01:00 AM.
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  6. #346
    Community Member Tinco's Avatar
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    Seems like a lot of people need to take a step back and look at this as what it is - an Enhancement Tree/PRE, not some new epic destiny. For that, it looks pretty good, whereas most of the basic power of the fighting style in general will come from the corresponding feats (like it is for twf).

    I'm seriously wondering what some of you expect from this tree. Divine Grace, Dex to damage and Evasion in one? I don't know, I'm honestly happy if this opens the Bard-splash for some builds that want to utilize the fighting style. If it works well in EE, even better. I'd rather see EE fixed than throwing a completely overblown PRE tree out there.
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  7. #347
    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    a capstone that is evasion, well i guess its better than the rest even if it lacks imagination in the extreme and reeks of defeat. or perhaps its a great idea and sets a trend you should follow regarding certain lvl 2 abilities...
    needs dex-to-damage enhancement.
    some dodge and fort pen is going to be pretty useless if you roll with that for swf feats, and they will probably need to grant characters 1.5 times the power that thf and twf feats do in order to make up for not having more swords or a bigger sword.
    en pointe looks pretty worthless; any build that uses double strike, can haste itself, and uses weapons that focus on increased crit chance does not need an ability to "guarantee" an attack is a crit which also costs sp and also likely disrupts their attack sequence. more likely to get more crits just by auto attack and ignoring that.

    also any feats you make for single weapon fighting might end up being useful for snb tanks, consider that you you decide what those feats have. again, if you stick with dodge and fort pen not only will it be weak for the pre it was designed for but really weak for an entire cross class role which could really use it. dont miss the opportunity.

    ignore at your leisure.
    Last edited by the_one_dwarfforged; 04-26-2014 at 07:18 AM.
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  8. #348
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    Default This Makes No Sense

    In pen and paper D&D, this was a fighter prestige class, and it should remain one. A bard is a combat morale specialist. A fighter is a combat and weapon tactician. Swashbuckler is a prestige line about specializing in a single weapon and close quarters combat tactics. This makes no sense as a bard prestige line. It would make much more sense as the third fighter prestige line. What next? Are you going to pull out Arcane Trickster as a prestige line for the third Favored Soul prestige?
    Last edited by Glaiven; 04-26-2014 at 12:04 PM.

  9. #349
    Hatchery Founder Ganak's Avatar
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    A few random ideas:

    1. Bucklers:

    From wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swashbuckler

    "Swashbuckler (a.k.a. swasher) is a term that emerged in the 16th century[1] and has been used as a term for pirates and swordsmen ever since. A possible explanation for this term is that it derives from a fighting style using a side-sword with a buckler in the off-hand, which was applied with much "swashing and making a noise on the buckler."

    Bucklers have really never been a factor of consequence in the game. Consider making wielding nothing in your off hand and wielding a Buckler in your off hand the same thing, and combining/balancing the benefits.

    For example: "2.Swashbuckling Style: 1.Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
    2.Skirmisher: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge."

    Becomes: 2.Swashbuckling Style: 1.Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand or with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels, 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot and 3% Dodge."

    Create a few named bucklers along with this.

    A new ability that goes along the lines of: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you have a 5/10/15% chance of making a shield bash attack upon damaged.



    2. Swashbucklers swinging through the air on a ship is a cliché. How about a Swashbuckler Leap...aka Acrobatic Charge?


    3. Dex to hit and damage. Swashbucklers considered heavy blades slower and relying on cleaving blows and brute strength. With core stats of dex, cha and con, it will make for a more bananced (competitive) build.


    4. A parrying passive ability, like the epic destiny feat Elusive Target.


    5. Sneak attack bonuses.

    5. Tactical bonuses to trip.
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  10. #350
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinco View Post
    Seems like a lot of people need to take a step back and look at this as what it is - an Enhancement Tree/PRE, not some new epic destiny. For that, it looks pretty good, whereas most of the basic power of the fighting style in general will come from the corresponding feats (like it is for twf).

    I'm seriously wondering what some of you expect from this tree. Divine Grace, Dex to damage and Evasion in one? I don't know, I'm honestly happy if this opens the Bard-splash for some builds that want to utilize the fighting style. If it works well in EE, even better. I'd rather see EE fixed than throwing a completely overblown PRE tree out there.
    It would be nice if they gave bards stances like they gave monks or special feats like 10k stars or evasion and divine grace at level 2, but it seems like it would take a lot less dev time to just give them great enhancements.
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  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It would be nice if they gave bards stances like they gave monks or special feats like 10k stars or evasion and divine grace at level 2, but it seems like it would take a lot less dev time to just give them great enhancements.
    Then they would be just like every other class and the game would look a lot like lotro or any wow clone where all the classes have similar abilities and powers, with slightly different names and animations.

    Why does everyone want Bards to be equal to other classes? Why can't they be unique and different? Why do they have to be 'balanced' or 'viable' for epic elite? The game shouldn't be balanced for Epic Elite in my opinion as it would make the rest of the difficulty levels even more trivial than they already are! Plus I bet more people don't play EE, than do.

    I wanted something new and different and I think this tree (with some beefing up) fits that bill pretty good. It isn't just a collection of other tree's abilities pushed together and called a PRE, like I've felt some of the more recent proposals have been.

    What I've noticed over the last few months when it comes to things proposed by Turbine is, if it is a weapon, unless it's better than a Sword of Shadows it's too weak. Unless an ED is better than Shiraldi or Dreadnaught, it's too weak and unless a PRE is better than the current FOTM, it's too weak. When I gave up min/max builds and trying to be or get the best stuff, I started to really appreciate the game more and all it has to offer. I'm not suggesting everyone should play like me now, but I feel many has lost perspective on what is "good" or "bad" for the game.
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  12. #352
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    It would be nice if they gave bards stances like they gave monks or special feats like 10k stars or evasion and divine grace at level 2, but it seems like it would take a lot less dev time to just give them great enhancements.
    One thing that would go a long way while still retaining the bardic flavor would just be to improve the songs.

    Give bards a song at level 12 that works like fascinate but causes a brief window of helplessness, not just daze.

    Improve Inspire Recklessness -- increase the doublestrike amount and make it stack with items.

    All the single-target buff songs should be AOE. (Yes, this would mean changing Epic Elyd Edge to do something else.)

    Change Song of Competence so it can affect the bard himself -- an ability that can't be used solo is worthless for many players.

    Change Song of Freedom to grant FOM.

    Change Inspire Greatness to do something useful, I don't think I've ever seen someone sing it.

    Etc., etc.
    Last edited by Cardtrick; 04-26-2014 at 09:52 AM.
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  13. #353
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    if it is a weapon, unless it's better than a Sword of Shadows it's too weak.
    This is perfectly reasonable, since eSOS has been around for years and is ML 20. A new endgame weapon from a level 30 raid should handily outperform it. (On the other hand, eSOS was so hopelessly broken when it was introduced that I'm okay with it remaining an outlier.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    Unless an ED is better than Shiraldi or Dreadnaught, it's too weak and unless a PRE is better than the current FOTM, it's too weak.
    They don't have to be better across the board. But they need to be at least in the same ballpark and better for some builds or playstyles. Otherwise, no one will use them and those who do will find that they can't contribute much in groups.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  14. #354
    Community Member fool101's Avatar
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    Here's an idea for tier 5 or 18 level core.

    Assuming they add dex to damage, any rage effect grants 10% profane alacrity to melee or thrown attack speed and grants dex instead of strength.
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  15. #355
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    Okay, here are some CRAZY ideas (and I have no clue how difficult these would be to implement)

    1. Tier 3 ability (toggle): Throw Anything. You can throw your one-handed melee weapon as if it were a returning weapon. While this toggle is active, the weapon is treated as a throwing weapon and only throwing-related feats, abilities, etc. apply to it.

    2. Tier 5 ability (toggle): Spam Thrower (yes it's a terrible name): While this ability is active your range with thrown weapons is greatly reduced, but you throw multiple weapons at once in a cone formation. (Basically like Cone of Cold only with, you know, thrown weapons).

    Of course it'd make sense if those were multiselector toggles with something else for melee. Throw Anything could, say, have a converse version that lets you use a throwing weapon as if it were a melee weapon. That'd be interesting, for sure. Spam Thrower (gawd that's a terrible name) could have a converse version where you lose your one-handed doublestrike with melee but instead hit everything in front of you on each attack.
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  16. #356
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    I have to agree that I think people are asking for too much in one tree. This is a great tree to multiclass with. If you want dex to atk/dmg, go 17 bard 3 rogue. You lose the 30% dodge cap and slippery mind, but gain dex to atk/dmg, 2d6 sneak attack, and trap skills. Thats perfectly reasonable, especially on a class with a lot of ways to ensure precision damage hits. If you want cha to atk/dmg, use PDK with shortswords, thats the races defining thing. Or Elyd Edge, a great swashbuckler choice and good bard weapon in general. It doesnt have to do everything "in house" so to speak.

    Obviously, per my other posts, I think it needs some adjustments but things so drastic as weapon stat changes are probably unrealistic, and issues the game can already solve the same way any other build solves them. People will offer what feedback they will, but its worth keeping in mind that 20 bard isnt the only combination that can or will use the tree. Bard 15, Rogue 3, Fighter 2 seems especially good for this tree, while Bard 20 seems nice for what it can do with all three trees together. Its a nice PRE to work with, but needs some adjustments and probably more T5 things (cant think of any other trees which have just 2 off the top of my head)... and thats okay, this is a first draft on paper, without even going to Lam yet. Cheers.

  17. #357
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    Default Hm, I like playing bards, but ...

    lets face it, bards are far from powerfull and for melee they are more of a flavour build than offering anything great. And a new feat(-line?) for single weapon fighting to boost fighting with only one weapon (including S&B) is a good idea, and it will help to get this out of the doldrums compared to TWF or THF, although it remains to be seen how much based on what the feat will offer.

    I think that to be a viable choice, or even get people to splash bard to get this, it needs to grant 1. the new single weapon feat, then it should give weapon finesse as a free grant, just like you give TWF to tempests. Bards have little room for feat choices as is, and making it all but mandatory for them to get a feat (or even a feat line) is just going to make this less of a viable choice.

    Then I would propose giving Dex to damage while in swashbuckling stance (i.e. using finessable weapons), and probably give an enhancement to add longswords and/or scimitars (would be annoying to find that the CC cutlass - scimitar - would NOT be the weapon for this fighting style that fits it perfectly lore wise).

    For the various stun etc. effects, the duration should be at least 3-6 seconds, with a cooldown of 6-9 seconds at most. And I agree with the proposal to add a parry somewhere, avoiding getting hit and giving some kind of stun, knockdown effect or riposte while using either a buckler, or a dagger (or maybe even a kama - as those are exactly meant for this kind of off hand support roles), making the dagger work as a defensive aid instead of giving attacks.

    Evasion should be granted earlier than the capstone (lvl12? still later than Monks, rogues, and Rangers, but at least usable in heroics) and then give improved evasion at capstone - that would make it a very solid direction for the capstone too.
    Last edited by Nascoe; 04-26-2014 at 01:10 PM.

  18. #358
    Founder WheelerCub's Avatar
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    Default Need DEX Damage, Off-hand Finessable Weapon options, and other tweaks

    So far I like the tree a lot, but I agree with what others are saying about DEX damage being needed. Also, because many of the Thrown weapon benefits are optional (choose melee or thrown), most players will likely steer clear away from Thrown builds like they do now. That said, here's what I recommend.

    Core Abilities:


    • 1 AP, class level 1: Swift Strikes: Passive: +1% Dodge. You can use your Dexterity modifier to hit with finesseable weapons.
    • 5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or a finesseable weapon in your off-hand, or and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)
      • Passive: While Swashbuckling, finessable and thrown weapons can use your Dexterity modifier for damage, and the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
        • Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
        • Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
        • Kukri, Rapier: +1 Multiplier
        • Handaxe: +2 Range
        • Light Pick: +1 Range

    • 10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage. You also gain a chance based on your Dexterity score to throw an extra thrown weapon per attack.
    • 20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you gain +1% Dodge, 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus. Evasive Maneuvers: While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat.
    • 30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind and Defensive Roll feats, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
    • 41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers II: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Improved Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.



    Swashbuckling Style I:


    1. Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
    2. Shield of Whirling Steel: While you are dual wielding, you gain a +2 Shield bonus to Armor Class. This increases by +1 for each Core Ability you acquire. In addition, you gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat if you don't already have it. (Does not stack with Ranger Tempest - Shield of Whirling Steel).
    3. Skirmisher: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge.
    4. Arcane Marauder: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training.
    5. Cannoneer: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Runearm Proficiency.


    Swashbuckling Style II:


    1. Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal +1[W] Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.
    2. Bleed Them Out: Melee attack - Deals +1[W] damage and on successful damage causes you opponent to bleed. The bleed effect can stack up to 5 times. (Cooldown: 6 seconds. Costs 10 Spell Points)
    3. Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +1[W] Bludgeon damage and +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, briefly knock down affected enemy (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.
    4. Loud & Clear:Toggle: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +20 Sonic Spell Power.
    5. Tune Arm/Music Box: Toggle: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage.
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  19. #359
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WheelerCub View Post
    Great ideas....
    But I'd like to add these:
    [*]Skirmisher: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge + Dodge Armour Cap, 12 PRR and 6 AC.
    [*]Cannoneer: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Provides Runearm Proficiency.
    [*]Loud & Clear:Toggle: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +50 Sonic Spell Power.

  20. #360
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    11

    Default Swashbuckler thoughts from a Bard of Sarlona...

    My Bard is certainly pleased with what I'm seeing so far - it's certainly a good start, needs some work obviously, but a good start Here's some of my thoughts, which reiterates what others have said:

    I know this has been brought up, but I also agree there needs to be some form of DEX/CHA to hit and damage. Seeing how Warchanter gives STR, it would be a better synergy to have an extra Boost from DEX/CHA, rather than replace it altogether. Warchanter has the 'Bard Rage Song', could Swashbuckler get something like that? Ie, a 'short' duration song self-buff (duration modified by level, enhancements, etc like all other songs) that would give you some form of damage bonus - be it straight up damage, or attack speed, double-strike, seeker, something like that, based on CHA/DEX? Again, this is the challenge of the Bard, who historically has been viewed as a "Fighter/Wizard/Rogue" rolled into one class. So for Swashbuckler to be effective, at the core it has to be compatible with the other trees and not exclusive.

    Evasion! - Definitely should be a core ability, but I think we can get away with it being lower level. Monks and Rogues get it at lvl 2, Rangers lvl 9, so I'd be happy with the lvl 12 core. Requires some investment into it, but then you actually get a fair amount of play-time with it, and not just post lvl 20. Plus if you wanted to do a Swashbuckling- Fighter, you have some flexibility with that And in keeping with the idea of giving people options in the tree Not related to Swashbuckling Stance, Evasion should be fully granted - which will also possibly address an issue that was brought up about equipping a scroll in the heat of battle and suddenly loosing Evasion for a brief moment, and then getting toasted by a fireball.

    Force of Personality!! - I would really like to see this feat added to Swashbuckler Core as well. Actually, that may even be better than Slippery Mind, and I think it really fits the theme.

    Capstone - definitely have some options here, and hopefully we will also see Warchanter's changed too in the near-future?? For the Swashbuckler Capstone, I see it as something that would really benefit those heavily investing into the 'Swashbuckling' Stance. I'm looking at Ninja Spy, Assassin, Acrobat capstones for something along those lines. Bonus to damage, attack speed, additional bonus to crit range and/or mult, armor pen, that kind of thing. But it needs to feel substantial. Improved Evasion might be an added possibility, or something along the lines of the Turn of the Tide ability from Fatesinger - a short-duration song self-buff that gives you some amazing combat abilities. I'm remember back to the 'Blade' Bard kit from Baldurs Gate 2, where you could use an 'Offensive Spin' granting extra damage and attacks/round. I can see something like that fitting.

    Rune-Arm!! I really like this idea, which really REALLY adds a pirate-y feel to the Swashbuckler. (Forget sword and board, gimme sword and cannon!!) Is it at all possible to have the enhancement grant Rune Arm proficiency to the Bard? Even if it's treated at half level for determining damage. Or would this be too much? Something to consider

    Orbs - I think this needs a bigger benefit to fit along the lines of the other off-hand Swashbuckling options. Maybe granting more spell power, or even granting something like Anthem, or granting temp SPs on crit? Just something more.

    Third Tier to Swashbuckling Multi-Style? - With only 2 tier 5 enhancements currently, it seems like the tree could use one more. Possibly a third tier to grant even more abilities, like granting Rune Arm proficiency to Cannoneer, granting weapons Heartseeker when empty offhand, a sonic damage version of 'Sunburst' with an Orb? Things like that.

    In regards to the Single-Weapon feats, easiest would be to probably stick with 3 ranks to stay in line with THF/TWF/NAT Fight. Armor-Piercing would be nice as part of it- say 15%/30%/45% (stacking with other sources of course). In addition, I think it needs either an Attack Speed increase, or as was mentioned earlier, a +[Weapon Dice] bonus. That would help differentiate it from TWF and THF, while still giving it some dps viability. Also the requirements should certainly be not as steep as those for THF/TWF. And then for the Epic Feat Perfect Single-Weapon, maybe that adds bonus to crit-range, multiplier?

    So a good start, and I'm looking forward to seeing how this develops further!

    -Cykris

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