Swashbuckler

[dunklezhan]

Dirty Fighting - Use the battleground as weapon - While Swashbuckling, any breakable attacked in melee deals [dice] damage and slows nearby enemies

This in particular would be lots of fun, whether it was very effective or not. HOWEVER, Bards suffer from this thing where noone lets them use crowd control, because everyone has charged in and blown everything to hell before the bard's songs have gone off. But in that very same burst of DPS... all the breakables would already be down. But it would be a quite a nice solo tactic, along with the fascinates and enthralls if available, and very in keeping with the PrE. I'd love to see something really interesting like this.

Swashbuckler should also be getting free shield bashes, which should do slashing not blunt - a buckler was a reasonably effective offensive slashing weapon (the rim was frequently sharpened and used to strike with) to go with the piercing rapier that the young swashbucklers would wear around town.

[Ralmeth]

Okay, I've had a chance to read through the proposed enhancements, and first off I'd like to say it's awesome to see this being worked on! I'm a fencer in RL, so this should be a lot of fun. There are a lot of good enhancements, but below are my thoughts on what I would recommend to update.

Limber Up
The 3rd tier bonus should be updated. Generally speaking, you're not going to tumble / roll through a trap. Instead you want to avoid hitting the trap completely by jumping over it, going around, etc. The bonus doesn't seem useful, and it seems silly that you would tumble before bypassing a trap to get the 6 second bonus. Perhaps make this a +3 passive save bonus to traps, or an extra bonus to dodge.

En Pointe
I like the idea of a special clicky attack. Fencers have a lot of options for making special attacks to score a good hit and this could encompass all of them, however it doesn't seem to make sense to use spell points. Instead, please make this a cool down.

Deflect Arrows
I'm not sure how this is "swashbuckler" or fencer like. I would look to replace this with something else. If you want this to be a defensive ability, how about adding more dodge, or perhaps more of a signature fencing move such as "Parry"? Parry could be simply a passive bonus to AC.

Sword Dance
This doesn't seem like it would do enough damage, except at low levels, to be worth taking. Also, it doesn't make sense how this would work (sonic damage for being missed?). I would look to replace this with something else, perhaps one of my ideas below.

Elegant footwork
Do you have to activate this? It should be provide a passive bonus.

Okay, here are a couple of ideas that are real fencing attacks to consider as enhancements:

Parry & Riposte
This is a very common fencing move. When someone makes an attack on you, you parry their attack and make an immediate counterattack. Which could be translated in game terms to, "when an enemy you are facing makes an attack on you and misses (for any reason), you are granted a free & immediate attack roll on them. Or more simply you could make this a doublestrike bonus."

Ballestra
This is an attack where you jump/skip ahead, followed by a lunge. In game terms, this could be a short burst of speed followed by an attack. This could be like using FVS wings or Propulsion Boots, but perhaps not quite as far, then followed by an attack.

[Grimlock]

Incorrect. See Spell Casting.

You can also just increase incoming damage to Ranged/Ranged Spellcasting characters.

You're 0 for 2 now. What else you got?

I am talking about ranged combat with weapons - spell casting is another matter entirely and I have not posted anything in this thread about it. Stick to the topic. We are talking about Sean Connery from Highlander in Dungeons and Dragons Online not how monks can taint yet another class with their low hanging fruit and easy button play style.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/swashbuckler/
Swashbuckler

(Complete Warrior variant, p. 11)
The swashbuckler embodies the concepts of daring and panache.


Hit die

d10
Alignment

Any
Starting gold

6d4 x 10
Skill points

4 + Int
Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Swashbucklers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor. Some of the swashbuckler's class features, as noted below, rely on her being no more than lightly armored and unencumbered.
Weapon Finesse (Ex): A swashbuckler gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level even if she does not qualify for the feat.
Grace (Ex): A swashbuckler gains a +1 competence bonus on Reflex saves at 2nd level. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and to +3 at 20th level. A swashbuckler loses this bonus when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
Insightful Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, a swashbuckler becomes able to place her finesse attacks where they deal greater damage. She applies her Intelligence bonus (if any) as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus she may have) with any light weapon, as well as any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, such as a rapier, whip, or spiked chain. Targets immune to sneak attacks or critical hits are immune to the swashbuckler's insightful strike. A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
Dodge Bonus (Ex): A swashbuckler is trained at focusing her defenses on a single opponent in melee. During her action, she may designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against melee attacks from that opponent. She can select a new opponent on any action. This bonus increases by +1 at every five levels after 5th (+2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th). A swashbuckler loses this bonus when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
If the swashbuckler also has the Dodge feat, she need not designate the same target for this ability as for the Dodge feat. (If she designates the same target, the bonuses stack.)
Acrobatic Charge (Ex): A swashbuckler of 7th level or higher can charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or allies blocking her path. This ability enables her to run down steep stairs, leap down from a balcony, or to tumble over tables to get to her target. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks (Jump or Tumble checks, in particular) to successfully move over the terrain.
Improved Flanking (Ex): A swashbuckler of 8th level or higher who is flanking an opponent gains a +4 bonus on attacks instead of a +2 bonus on attacks. (Other characters flanking with the swashbuckler don't gain this increased bonus.)
Lucky (Ex): Many swashbucklers live by the credo "Better lucky than good." Once per day, a swashbuckler of 11th level or higher may re-roll any failed attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw. The character must take the result of the re-roll, even if it's worse than the original roll.
Acrobatic Skill Mastery (Ex): At 13th level, a swashbuckler becomes so certain in the use of her acrobatic skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When making a Jump or Tumble check, a swashbuckler may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.
Weakening Critical (Ex): A swashbuckler of 14th level or higher who scores a critical hit against a creature also deals 2 points of Strength damage to the creature. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.
Slippery Mind (Ex): When a swashbuckler reaches 17th level, her mind becomes more difficult to control. If the swashbuckler fails her save against an enchantment spell or effect, she can attempt the save again 1 round later at the same DC (assuming she is still alive). She gets only this one extra chance to succeed at a certain saving throw.
Wounding Critical (Ex): A swashbuckler of 19th level or higher who scores a critical hit against a creature also deals 2 points of Constitution damage to the creature. (This damage is in addition to the Strength damage dealt by the swashbuckler's weakening critical class feature.) Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.
Advancement

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1st	+1	+2	+0	+0	Weapon Finesse
2nd	+2	+3	+0	+0	Grace +1
3rd	+3	+3	+1	+1	Insightful strike
4th	+4	+4	+1	+1	–
5th	+5	+4	+1	+1	Dodge bonus +1
6th	+6/+1	+5	+2	+2	–
7th	+7/+2	+5	+2	+2	Acrobatic charge
8th	+8/+3	+6	+2	+2	Improved flanking
9th	+9/+4	+6	+3	+3	–
10th	+10/+5	+7	+3	+3	Dodge bonus +2
11th	+11/+6/+1	+7	+3	+3	Grace +2, lucky
12th	+12/+7/+2	+8	+4	+4	–
13th	+13/+8/+3	+8	+4	+4	Acrobatic skill mastery
14th	+14/+9/+4	+9	+4	+4	Weakening critical
15th	+15/+10/+5	+9	+5	+5	Dodge bonus +3
16th	+16/+11/+6/+1	+10	+5	+5	–
17th	+17/+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+5	Slippery mind
18th	+18/+13/+8/+3	+11	+6	+6	–
19th	+19/+14/+9/+4	+11	+6	+6	Wounding critical
20th	+20/+15/+10/+5	+12	+6	+6	Dodge bonus +4, grace +3

Class skills

Skill name	Key ability	Trained only	Armor check penalty
Balance	DEX
Bluff	CHA
Climb	STR
Craft	INT
Diplomacy	CHA
Escape Artist	DEX
Jump	STR
Profession	WIS
Sense Motive	WIS
Swim	STR
Tumble	DEX
Use Rope	DEX

[Panzermeyer]

Hi! We’re writing to give you an early look at the Swashbuckler, an upcoming Bard Prestige Enhancement line coming to DDO with Update 22. A major focus of Swashbuckler is a new style of fighting in DDO: Single-Weapon Fighting. We’re working on creating a line of Single-Weapon Fighting Feats, similar in power and scope to Two-Weapon and Two-Handed Fighting, tentatively giving some Dodge and Armor Piercing (ignoring enemy Fortification.) The Swashbuckler also supports Thrown Weapon builds. The Swashbuckler’s Sonic damage scales with Spellpower in most places.

We believe having the Swashbuckler focus on Single-Weapon Fighting makes for interesting build options, both for pure Bards and multi-classed characters. We’ve also worked to make sure that players can spend a moderate amount of points in the Swashbuckler tree and receive good benefits, even if the build isn’t focusing on Single-Weapon Fighting. We’re hoping to find time to improve Warchanter and Spellsinger as well, although those improvements are likely more limited in scope, and those changes may end up delayed beyond the launch of Update 22.

I fully support this single weapon feat line.

However to add more versaility overall in build types. Follow true swashbuckling as far as melee is concerned. Swashbucklers used one of three styles rapier (single weapon combat), rapier and buckler, or rapier and dagger.

Having rapier and dagger as an option should be included in the enhancement line. Though you might be able to include them in the same bonuses on weapon and buckler. Though I do think you should limit it to dagger's or only. Swashbuckler is definitely a piercing, finesse type fighter. And just allowing it to be a small sized weapon I don't think fits with the theme. So daggers in off hands should be allowed in Swashbuckling

Slap in the face should stun for longer than one second to be more viable. And honestly the Swashbuckling Style Teir I seem much more powerful and useful than the Teir II. The Teir II should be boosted. THis will give people a reason to spend more and stay more in the tree.

[unbongwah]

I like the tree over all but can we get evasion any earlier?

Sure: just take a rog splash.

The main problem with Single Weapon Fighting (SWF) is the same one with S&B: namely all the extra dmg which 2H weapons get (higher base dmg, +1.5x STR modifier, +10 from Power Atk, etc.). Compounding matters, the Finesseable requirement means it doesn't apply to b.swords & d.axes, which means no glancing blows. Adding Doublestrike bonuses is a step in the right direction, but by my count there's only +12% doublestrike total in Swashbuckler, and that's if you equip nothing in your offhand. A S&B build can get more than that if it takes Legendary Shield Mastery (+15%) and gains the (modest) benefits of having a shield in their offhand. Plus it lists Swashbuckling as a defensive stance, which I presume means it won't stack with Stalwart defensive stance - so where's the PRR? Also: no way of subbing DEX or CHA for STR on what's clearly meant to be a DEX- or CHA-based PrE? Tsk tsk.

So, some ideas for revisions. My first idea is borrowed from KotC: when you select the first core enhancement, you choose between Duelist (DEX-based) or Dashing Swordsman (CHA-based). All of the other PrE abilities build on that concept.

Core Abilities:

Lvl 1: Swift Strikes: Passive: you gain +1% Dodge and +1 max DEX bonus (light armor only) for every core enhancement (inc. this one).
Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain +2% Doublestrike, +2% Doubleshot, +3 PRR, and +[0.5]W for every core enhancement (inc. this one) to the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)
You must also choose one:
Duelist: You gain +1 Reflex saves for every core enhancement (inc. this one). While Swashbuckling is active, you may use your Dexterity Modifier to hit with Finesseable melee weapons.
Dashing Swordsman: You gain +1 Will saves for every core enhancement (inc. this one). While Swashbuckling is active, you may use your Charisma Modifier to hit with Finesseable melee weapons.

Lvl 3: While Swashbuckling is active, the weapon in your main hand gains a Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier that makes it x3 (ignoring other bonuses) and Critical Threat Range that makes it 18-20 (ignoring other bonuses). [This bonus overrides a weapon's base crit profile; and since it is a competence bonus, it won't stack with Keen Edge, Knife Spec, or Pulverizer, but will stack with Keen / Impact weapon property or Improved Crit feat.]
Duelist: While Swashbuckling is active, you may use your Dexterity Modifier for damage with Finesseable melee weapons and thrown weapons.
Dashing Swordsman: While Swashbuckling is active, you may use your Charisma Modifier for damage with Finesseable melee weapons and thrown weapons.

Lvl 6: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat; this stacks with the Dodge bonuses from Swift Strikes as well as Uncanny Dodge feats from rogue or barbarian levels.
Duelist: You gain the Dodge feat. [This cannot apply toward feat pre-reqs like Mobility, but will apply to enhancement pre-reqs like Reed in the Wind and Improved Dodge.]
Dashing Swordsman: You gain the Luck of Heroes feat. [Does not stack with chosen feat.]

Lvl 12: You gain the Improved Uncanny Dodge feat; this stacks with the Dodge bonuses from Swift Strikes as well as Uncanny Dodge feats from rogue or barbarian levels.
Duelist: While Swashbuckling, you gain the Mobility feat. [Does not apply to feat pre-reqs like Spring Attack.]
Dashing Swordsman: While Swashbuckling, you gain the Slippery Mind feat.

Lvl 18: While Swashbuckling, you gain the Opportunist feat.
Duelist: While Swashbuckling, you gain the Defensive Roll feat.
Dashing Swordsman: While Swashbuckling, you gain the Force of Personality feat.

Lvl 20: Evasive Maneuvers: While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat.
Duelist: +2 DEX. While Swashbuckling, you gain the Improved Evasion feat.
Dashing Swordsman: +2 CHA. While Swashbuckling, you gain the Divine Grace feat.

[IronClan]

Acrobatic Charge (Ex): A swashbuckler of 7th level or higher can charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or allies blocking her path. This ability enables her to run down steep stairs, leap down from a balcony, or to tumble over tables to get to her target. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks (Jump or Tumble checks, in particular) to successfully move over the terrain.

A few of us have suggested this exact thing but for whatever reason Turbine is not digging the Banner sliding, Chandeller swinging vibe for Swashbuckler.

Also would much rather see this be a new class.

[Mryal]

Okay, here are a couple of ideas that are real fencing attacks to consider as enhancements:

Parry & Riposte
This is a very common fencing move. When someone makes an attack on you, you parry their attack and make an immediate counterattack. Which could be translated in game terms to, "when an enemy you are facing makes an attack on you and misses (for any reason), you are granted a free & immediate attack roll on them. Or more simply you could make this a doublestrike bonus."

Ballestra
This is an attack where you jump/skip ahead, followed by a lunge. In game terms, this could be a short burst of speed followed by an attack. This could be like using FVS wings or Propulsion Boots, but perhaps not quite as far, then followed by an attack.

Yep those are good ideas, and reflects what i thought this tree would have in first place.

^^^ This in a nutshell is my objection as well.

Light pick +1 range? LOL Turbine imagine if I told you 15-20X6 would still be weak next to a Centered Kensei? Yep I'm telling you...

Play your game Developers stop acting like a little lethality would be OP for a melee class in a game where a PM can insta kill everything in it's path in 99% of the game...

You could quite literally make all melee attacks True Vorpal on a 19-20 and a melee would still be woeful DPS compared to a Draconic sorc doing 20,000 AOE damage once or twice per room, or a PM "smart bombing" an entire room full of EE trash mobs obliterating the entire room...

Join a PUG Wheloon EE with a 70-ish DC PM... then come back and talk of +1 crit range Light picks LOL

Peraphs a bit too much on the caster numbers, but this pretty much sumarizes the state of DDO ever since the undermess expansion came and ED's came.Wich is sad.Its alredy gonna be hard to balance one handed fighting vs other melee fighting.Vs spellcasting? not even possible lol.This directly reflects to why bard is a non used class right now, struggle to get the same dcs a caster does, never gets the same spell pen, and has virtualy no damage either in melee or in spells.Bards are melee buffers and melee is less and less relevant, as you stated.So bards are less and less relevant.The strategy that used to exist before the first expansion on runing end game content has vaninshed, and it has all really turned into a bring a caster and nuke it quickly or have someone with a bow nuke it quickly.

[Qhualor]

just curious as to why Swashbuckler is under Bard and not Fighter or Rogue. I understand that Fighters and Rogues already have 3 prestiges and people have asked for another prestige under Bard, but ive always considered them more Fighter with some trapping skills than anything else. looking at the 3.5 D&D Swashbuckler I don't really see anything similar to what is being proposed here and I cant find a Swashbuckling Bard anywhere.

[Grimlock]

A few of us have suggested this exact thing but for whatever reason Turbine is not digging the Banner sliding, Chandeller swinging vibe for Swashbuckler.

Also would much rather see this be a new class.

I view this as a temporary FoM temporary enhancement based on a time limit allowing you to tumble or move unhindered for a period of time.

I would not want to see this as a class. It does not have the depth the other classes do and does not bring anything new to the table that would make this a viable alternative as opposed to other class ideas/suggestions like a Psionic (Which Maj shot down, much to my dismay). This nicely rounds out the Bard enhancement selections but does need further revision. More DPS, more dodge/AC ideas, etc.

[Cardtrick]

So, some ideas for revisions. My first idea is borrowed from KotC: when you select the first core enhancement, you choose between Duelist (DEX-based) or Dashing Swordsman (CHA-based). All of the other PrE abilities build on that concept.

I love these suggestions. In particular, the fact that at L20 you would either have Evasion + Divine Grace or Improved Evasion would nicely address my concern that evasion without a means of boosting reflex saves is useless in epics.

Although I think your Duelist line is significantly worse than the Dashing Swordsman line, especially since a pure swashbuckler is already likely to be bucking up against the dodge cap. I would replace one of your dodge bonuses with something that gives innate Incorporeality at a higher level than the 10% available from Ghostly.

[Silkenwise]

I would love to see the damages DOUBLED on the damage bonuses, but limit their application to Piercing damage only. +5 damage on the capstone is woefully inadequate for a level 20 quest. Double it to +10, and restrict it to piercing.

Also, how about some Fortification reduction (thin blades are designed to hit the gaps in armor!) ?
TWF rapier & dagger should also be viable.

I dig the dodge bonus, splashing this for a few levels with a Wizard for a Dread Wraith Eldritch Knight would be a nice melee kiter.
50% displacement + 35% incorporeal + 25% dodge (Uncanny+Swashbuckle+Dex+Gear) = nasty!

Potentially Wizard12/Bard6/Rogue2

Why not toss in Improved Uncanny Dodge to the capstone, as well. Sweeten the deal for pure 20 Bards!

[Scraap]

Core Abilities
Kukri, Rapier: +1 Multiplier
Light Pick: +1 Range

I'd flip those two so that they become more 'themselves' as it were.

Tier Two

1. En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make an attack with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs Spell Points to activate.

Pick one.

Tier Three

1. Swashbuckling Style:
   
   1. Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.

+1 per 4 bard levels, or if you want it to scale into epics with a good buff for the major tradeoff of no offhand at all, cha to damage.

1. Skirmisher: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge.

Tack on shield mastery.

1. Arcane Marauder: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training.
2. Cannoneer: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Runearm Proficiency.

I'd swap those from requires, to grants, if the intent is for more classes to have a desire to acquire those items.

1. Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.

Might be a bit much, but considering we're talking throwers here: resonating (as in flaming), resonating burst, resonating torrent (as in an AoE equivalent) using the 2d6 progression, still effected by spellpower.

Tier Five

1. Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active.

Double if fighting with no offhand.

1. Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit.

Alternate: Sink Deep: While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Multiplier until you successfully critically hit. (Intent being to counteract self-healers better via heavy spikes.)

[HungarianRhapsody]

just curious as to why Swashbuckler is under Bard and not Fighter or Rogue. I understand that Fighters and Rogues already have 3 prestiges and people have asked for another prestige under Bard, but ive always considered them more Fighter with some trapping skills than anything else. looking at the 3.5 D&D Swashbuckler I don't really see anything similar to what is being proposed here and I cant find a Swashbuckling Bard anywhere.

Fighters have 3 prestiges?

Fighter and Rogue are doing okay-ish for now. Bard is the class that most needs a boost. Aside from Paladin (above 2 class levels). And Barbarian.

So Bard gets the love. And by love I mean new PrE. That may or may not be used.

[Nibor]

One handed fighting seems to be a defensive way of fighting (assuming shield user).Peraphs something on the lines of counter atacking when Dodge chance happens (in addition to what i alredy suggested above) would be a different way of producing dps.To shield users this would be a slight boost, to Swashbuckler bards it could be significant - but then again even swashbucklers would still have a max 30% dodge.Peraphs its time to replace that +5 dodge cap on swashbuckler to a 'you no longer have a dodge cap'.
Its odd that theres no Parry and counter attack on swashbuckler enhancements alredy, isnt it supposed to be a duelist?

The SWF feats need to be more than a "slight boost" to shield users - the feats need to not only support the Swashbuckler tree but also help the existing problem of sword and board users having insufficient DPS as well. A guard proc upon dodge isn't going to cut it.

[Qhualor]

Fighters have 3 prestiges?

Fighter and Rogue are doing okay-ish for now. Bard is the class that most needs a boost. Aside from Paladin (above 2 class levels). And Barbarian.

So Bard gets the love. And by love I mean new PrE. That may or may not be used.

my bad. I meant 2 for fighter. I was thinking faster than I was typing.

[dejafu]

Teh Troll is right (gods help me) - bards are a weak enough class that you should err on the side of overpowered for this tree. This still feels... hesitant. An approach which might be warranted if this was for a caster class or a monk, but bards need to be buffed aggressively.

At the very least, either let them use Charisma for attack/damage modifiers or give them a bonus to attack and damage based on Cha. It's the right thing to do in terms of both flavor and viability.

Slap in the Face needs to be longer than 1 second stun, 1 second stun is next to meaningless. Make it the same duration as stunning blow - it won't unbalance anything, I promise!

In the end, though, it's next to impossible to say how viable this will be without having more concrete ideas of what the One-handed fighting style feats will offer. Just spitballing here, but I'd say go with something like the following (the numbers are total, not stacking):

One-handed Fighting: +15% doublestrike, +2[w] damage, +2% dodge, +3% dodge cap
Improved One-handed Fighting: +30% doublestrike, +4[w] damage, +4% dodge, +6% dodge cap
Greater One-handed Fighting: +45% doublestrike, +6[w] damage, +6% dodge, +10% dodge cap

Epic One-handed Fighting: Adds another +15% doublestrike, +2[w] damage, +2% dodge, and +5% dodge cap

If the above seems like a lot, remember that giving up an offhand slot entirely means losing out on a lot more than extra attacks or AC - it means losing out on a host of possible beneficial abilities, augment slots, etc. We need something big to replace what we're giving up!

[Cardtrick]

The SWF feats need to be more than a "slight boost" to shield users - the feats need to not only support the Swashbuckler tree but also help the existing problem of sword and board users having insufficient DPS as well. A guard proc upon dodge isn't going to cut it.

I couldn't disagree more.

Sword-and-board needs help, yes. But that help shouldn't come in the form of requiring 3 more feats.

That would basically rule it out for melee clerics, favored souls, and paladins -- the classes that really should be using shields most. Requiring 3 feats in addition to the various shield feats they already need is just too much for anyone but fighters.

[Tentaki]

I like that this build opens up some possibilities for new build ideas (which I love) and glad to see that some of my first thoughts (such as using a rune arm while swashbuckling) have already been considered. I also appreciate that you guys are trying to make many of the weapons that are hardly used anymore viable again. This is good stuff.

I also feel like that while I want to comment, I'm only being given half the picture. Looking at this enhancement tree through a tunnel, it seems fairly weak. For the ability to use a single weapon, you lose the ability to use two weapons - which you can easily get to an 80% chance to trigger off-hand attacks in addition to doublestrike - for a build that as far as I can tell gives you a roughly 12% chance to double strike as a constant. While the dodge and extra damage are appealing, even with the addition of runearms, bucklers, and other things, I don't find a compelling reason to give up that second weapon for a roughly 68% drop in producing extra hits, even with the improved critical modifiers (assuming I'm not using a buckler in the off hand). Also, since I'm only using one weapon, I can only get extra damage through doublestrike for two hits a swing as opposed to doublestrike *and* off-hand attacks for 3 hits a swing if I use a second weapon. Using only one one-handed weapon lowers my maximum damage potential by a noticeable amount.

Also, while the use of bucklers while swashbuckling is intriguing, I took a quick look at the wiki and found that the only unique buckler in the game is the Swashbuckler, which you can only get during the Crystal Cove event. The idea of using a random buckler that I have no idea what the stats will be doesn't excite me very much.

However, I might be intrigued by splashing this with some arti levels and a crossbow. Would be great to get through heroic, I think, but I'm struggling to see how this would be awesome in epic.

Again, I feel like I don't have the whole picture. Maybe there's some awesome single weapon feats that negate what I mentioned above, or some really cool bucklers that will also be introduced that would be worth shooting for. But again, looking at this through a tunnel, I'm not seeing enough to make me want to drop two-weapon fighting in exchange for this.

[Steelstar]

1: Weak, especially since Bard 1 is an almost unheard of dip and the ability is called Swift Strikes but does nothing for striking. Have this add the 1% doublestrike/shot and +1 damage as well, or change the name to something less attack oriented and have it add +1 AC and Ref. Honestly I like the 2nd option better, as 1 dodge, ac, and ref is a fitting start to the class while being less prone to taking a dip over.

First Core abilities are generally not that powerful. 1% Dodge for 1 AP is fairly strong for a level 1 Bard on Korthos.

18: Again nice but the bonus to dodge cap needs to also raise armor max dex bonus. There are few light armors which would allow 30 dex to use the cap increase, and I do not think the class should push people into cloth armor to utilize its unique dodge modifiers. Have it add +5 to max dex, AND the other bonuses... so its 5 more dodge no matter what swashbuckler gear youre in, but the unique part is it also raises the cap if youre there.

Fair point. Increasing the Max Dex bonus is something we'll discuss internally.

Insults is less obvious, it really depends on the cooldown, the range/radius, and cost. Its a nice ability, but if its too expensive or too slow it wont get used much. Also, depending on the area or number of targets, it may or may not be useful. Basically, if its less effective than hypno, its failed. So try to scale it at least to that level (10 sp, 2s cd)... yea it can hit other saves but it also requires a level of bard and likely 3ap (1 for core, 2 for this Im assuming since its not a tiered ability). If Im going to spend 3 ap, it shouldnt be worse than the available alternatives.

We'd love to hear what you (and others) think the SP cost and cooldown should be. As of now, it is planned to go off almost instantaneously, have about the same AOE as Soundburst, have no max number of targets and would affect Bosses. You hit the button, every nearby enemy's saves go down. There are currently three planned ranks of each, with each rank planned to reduce cooldown and SP cost (wherever that ends up landing).

Aqua Vitae is terrible. Leveling up its too few hp to survive even one hit, let alone several, and at cap its no better. The heal is so slow (3.5 hp per 2 sec, or 1.75 hp per second) it would take even a noob level 3 guy off korthos something like a minute to heal up. So that means its an out of combat heal, its too fragile and slow to use in combat. Bards have heals, and have enough UMD to wand/scroll easily. Even a bard splash affords this (cure light, wand access, umd access). This ability is misplaced, out of combat other things are better and cost no action points. Changing it to an instant heal is no better, so the ability should receive a rework. Perhaps something like life shield (10% chance to proc 3 temp hp per bard level when hit in combat) or something. Then it kinda works with Boast from Warchanter maybe. And meshes well with the Sword Dance (temp hp for you if hit, sonic dmg for them if missed, follow up with nana nana booboo and youre swashbuckling with the best of them). Or pull it for something else. But as is, this one doesnt pass.

This ability is meant to be a viable, non-magical emergency self-heal. From feedback so far, it sounds like the healing is too low at the very least. We'd love to know where you all think the healing should be, or what changes would make this ability interesting/"worth taking". Do bear in mind, it can be taken at level two.

Elegant Footwork sounds lame. Im assuming that its something (made up numbers inc) like 5% chance to knock a guy down when he hits you, but then 12s cd happens after it fires? Thats just so minor given the number of swings that come your way, especially on a class like bard with decent CC abilities.

We've been playing with the numbers on this one, trying to find a balance where this ability goes off often but not constantly. There is no save to the knockdown. Again, we'd love to hear where you think the chances and cooldowns should be.

Swashbuckling Style is a great idea but these are not even remotely balanced. Stacking +4 damage and 7% doublestrike is not the same as 7% dodge.

The Dashing Scoundrel (Empty Hand) option in Swashbuckling Styles is intentionally stronger than the other ones. To use it, you're giving up having any other item in your off hand, ever. The comparison is 7% Dodge plus whatever your Buckler's giving you.

Fast Movement, would like a scale on this one (hopefully its not actually as good as monk, simply because I dont think thats fair to monks) but its good. If its as much as barbarian, it would be worth it. Anything more would be gravy. Since this sort of thing is very intensive to test ourselves, please provide us what kind of data you were thinking of (like 1% per 3 bard levels is too low, 2% speed per bard level is too high, does it stack with striding like "fast movement" does, etc).

The current iteration (when capped) is faster than Barbarians but a little slower than Monks. It stacks with Barbarian Movement Speed, and anything else that stacks with.

Loud and Clear, change to +10/20/30 sonic spellpower and put it on a tiered system like the others. Bards (and anyone really) dont really get a lot of choices for sonic sp.

On a technical note, this can't be three ranks as the Swashbuckling Style below it has only one rank. We'll discuss internally whether this (and other abilities in the tree) should be giving more Spell Power.

Thread the Needle ... can you use this with swashbuckling? Not a stupid question, since Swashbuckling is a defensive stance and precision is a combat stance, I just want to be sure that the new stances are all coded to play right with this.

You should be able to use Swashbuckling and Precision simultaneously.

Its a good first preview and on the right track. I hope you find my input helpful and take some of it to heart. Cheers.

Thanks! There was a lot of good feedback in this post, both positive and negative.

Varg and I have been keeping up on the thread so far, thank you for the feedback.

[Grosbeak07]

the more I thought about it this afternoon the more I think Evasion is needed earlier. I would say put it at the level six core, and at level 20 get improved evasion. This would give this tree some more options for fighters and barbarians