Swashbuckler

[Scraap]

Again I say thanks for wasting time developing a bard tree that no one asked for instead of working on all the rest of the missing PrEs that people have been clamoring for since the enhancement pass.

In fairness, finishing what they start doesn't actively make them new money. Regardless of those of us that clamp down harder on the purse-strings when it comes to new systems the more they leave unfinished systems laying strewn about. Too many bean-counters skipped that particular economics lesson, after all, and common sense isn't.

[Tentaki]

My comments are based off the initial post, I haven't read any replies.
Evasion isn't so great on elite unless your reflex saves are pretty high. Dex for damage seems to make sense for a swashbuckler build. With so few ways to jack up Dex, and the low base damage of light weapons, I don't think this is overpowered.

I'd like to see dex for damage as an ability too, or possibly even charisma. It'd make it nice to be able to not have to worry about dumping points in strength to do some decent damage. It'd also make the evasion skill all that more appealing, since dumping points into dex can increase my damage, to hit, AC and evade more damage from spells. It's a compelling package.

The thing too about evasion is that bards get good reflex saves inherently. If you're a level 20 bard, you're going to have a +12 base before figuring on abilities from equipment and other sources, which is as good as you're going to get unless you multiclass or play a paladin. Chances are that even without a ton of effort (remember that this class gets Greater Heroism inherently), you'll likely save on taking a decent amount of damage even if you don't specifically gear for it. If I'm playing a 28 or 32 point first life character without a lot of gear, I'd give this tree some decent consideration.

That being said, I still don't think the capstone is enough for me to dump over half my enhancement points into the tree and miss out on the benefits of multiclassing 2 levels of rogue, fighter, or whatever else I feel like taking. The capstone falls into the "not bad" category for me, but that's about it.

[Cardtrick]

4 points into Spellsinger takes care of this. Magical Studies 3 provides Magical Training in addition to its 100 mana, along with Orb Proficiency and Echos of Power by proxy. Since its likely most bards will want Lingering Song as well, its a pretty low impact purchase.

Ah, yeah, you're right. I keep forgetting about that one. I do have that on my iconic bard challenge farmer. Thanks for the reminder.

I still feel like it should have just been an innate ability -- if artificers get it, why not bards? -- but it's fine.

[Ralmeth]

Again I say thanks for wasting time developing a bard tree that no one asked for instead of working on all the rest of the missing PrEs that people have been clamoring for since the enhancement pass.

Actually, I've asked for Swashbuckler in DDO for years! I'm very much looking forward to it. I also know someone who will be coming back to DDO for of it. Obviously more PREs and fixing up of existing PREs is also needed, but there is customer demand for this.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

Ah, yeah, you're right. I keep forgetting about that one. I do have that on my iconic bard challenge farmer. Thanks for the reminder.

I still feel like it should have just been an innate ability -- if artificers get it, why not bards? -- but it's fine.

no its not, to get magical training on a bard you must either LOSE ALL MUSICAL TRAINING or take a feat. musical training is huge especially since some of the mass songs are single target currently (oh sustaining song)

[Cardtrick]

The thing too about evasion is that bards get good reflex saves inherently. If you're a level 20 bard, you're going to have a +12 base before figuring on abilities from equipment and other sources, which is as good as you're going to get unless you multiclass or play a paladin. Chances are that even without a ton of effort (remember that this class gets Greater Heroism inherently), you'll likely save on taking a decent amount of damage even if you don't specifically gear for it. If I'm playing a 28 or 32 point first life character without a lot of gear, I'd give this tree some decent consideration.

Right -- it's that "unless you multiclass or play a paladin" bit that's the problem. Anyone building for evasion is normally going to be able to multiclass. This tree doesn't allow that, since you don't get evasion until the level 20 capstone. So if its evasion is going to be useful, it needs some way to boost saves comparably to Divine Grace. Even a build with monk and paladin splashes requires some significant effort to get close to no-fail saves -- and that's with an extra 25+ points of reflex save over what a pure bard can get. Remember that the die roll for saves is still only 1-20. Unlike with the AC and to-hit revamps, DCs and saves haven't changed and we still have cutoff points. If you can't get within 20 points of the DCs for the content you're running, 40 points of reflex save is exactly the same as 0 points.

Absolutely everyone gets Greater Heroism by epics. It's available on potions and scrolls and clickies. Remember that when we're talking about the swashbuckler's evasion, we only need to consider epics, since they don't get it until level 20. Being able to self cast Greater Heroism is a convenience feature, but it's not an argument for bards having better reflex saves than others.

And no, you won't save on taking much damage without specifically gearing for it -- except in low level epics on epic normal difficulty, or maybe on higher difficulties if running way over level with great gear.

[sollor]

twf has off-hand attack.
thf has glancing blow.
Shield have double strike.
animal form has double strike.
swashbuckler need to have +atk speed.
lighter weapon In one hand atk faster logically.
Also a counter atk would be cool to see. (parry)

Are you planing for Einhander feat

[Nayo]

Yay! So exciting! Thanks for this, it looks like it will be a lot of fun. I think you guys did great on this. Here are my thoughts. I'll start with what I don't like about the tree, because that is actually the shorter list.

Things I hate about the tree:
Not a single bard song - Really? Why not?
Evasion is great, but... Some bonus to reflex save would really help. Or, possibly (wishful thinking) dex to damage while swashbuckling?
That one attack that causes a 1 second stun should be 3 I think. 1 second barely gives you time to do anything, and I don't think 3 would be overpowered.
I think it could actually use a few more points of doublestrike in the core or tier 5 enhancements.

Things I love about the tree:
Evasion - Great one. But also great because melee bards never had a good reason to go pure. Now they at least have a reason.
New play style! - No one uses one handed only (or bucklers for that matter...) so bringing a new fighting-style to the mix is sweet.
The natural range + multipliers - essential... damage will still be rather low, but this certainly helps.
The defensive bard! - Definitely cool... Displacement, dodge bonuses, evasion, slippery mind, uncanny dodge, deflect arrows... Mix that in with Sword Dance and Elegant Footwork and you have some nice synergy going on.
Blow by blow - Bards need all the damage they can get. Nice to have a bard 'special attack' button besides frozen fury.
Doublestrike action boost - More damage!
Sonic damage on crits - why didn't bards get this kind of thing earlier? Seems very bardish.
On the mark - very appropriate for this kind of character. And nice to have to-hit and to-damage bonuses in the same thing.
Perform-based melee attacks!!! Sweet!
Aqua Vitae??? Undecided on that. Sounds like a mini rejuvenation cocoon, but 1d6 is pretty measly.

I rolled up a new bard as soon as I saw this

[HungarianRhapsody]

The thing too about evasion is that bards get good reflex saves inherently. If you're a level 20 bard, you're going to have a +12 base before figuring on abilities from equipment and other sources, which is as good as you're going to get unless you multiclass or play a paladin. Chances are that even without a ton of effort (remember that this class gets Greater Heroism inherently), you'll likely save on taking a decent amount of damage even if you don't specifically gear for it. If I'm playing a 28 or 32 point first life character without a lot of gear, I'd give this tree some decent consideration.

Bards don't get good reflex saves inherently. Bards get +6 reflex over a "bad"

And bardshave MAD that isn't as bad as Monks and a few other builds, but they can't just sink all of their points into 2 stats the way that Wizards/Sorcs can, etc.

Wizards have good reflex saves (Insightful Reflexes).
Paladins have good reflex saves (Divine Grace).
Bards have the same mediocre saves as any other class, just with a +6 bonus over the terrible reflex saves that the worst characters get.

If you don't specifically gear for it, *EVERY* character has mediocre (at best) Reflex saves.

[Sgt_Hart]

1 Dodge is worth at least 1 AP.

Here's a secret: The abilities that give 1 spellpower per point spent only give you 1 spellpower. All the OTHER abilities give you the rest of the spellpower.

And here's the thing.. the same model could be applied here.. 1 dodge per AP spent in the tree. but when the first core ability only say's 1 dodge..

It remains terrible marketing.

"Buy one get one free" Essentially every _____ is half price, but the goal is to MOVE stock, so you must buy 2 to qualify.
"But for $19.99 you get not one, not two, but Three Chia pet's..." They begin with the cost of (presumably) 1, and then point out you get more than that, provided you meet minimum acceptable value.

I can't argue that it should be 1 dodge per AP.. but in that first core ability.. Fluff it out to make it an attractive offer, with the hint/intention of further investment improves something. Flip it around varg: I'm planning a favored soul, looking to splash something in to shore it up. What would that 1 dodge cost me: a Class level, an action point, (Potentially)class capstone.

Hell, Shore up the typical melee bard problem and say "Every core, excluding this one grants 1 Base Attack Bonus" if you like. The idea isn't exactly to get something shiny added onto it, it's to make it feel as if it is the first step down a path of improvement. 1% dodge.. is a fine blow to land, but it lacks Follow through. Savvy?

no its not, to get magical training on a bard you must either LOSE ALL MUSICAL TRAINING or take a feat. musical training is huge especially since some of the mass songs are single target currently (oh sustaining song)

Negative. I presently have song on a pure elf, Spellsinger / Arcane Archer life. That's not to say its not a problem for the majority of people.. However, your argument that one must lose all musical training is false.

[Nayo]

stand strong. single weapon fighting is unique and I think it should stay as originally described.

I disagree on this one. The only ones single weapon fighting will be bards or deep bard-splashes. Having a string of feats that is only useful to those is a bad idea I think. I'd rather see single weapon fighting feats that help bards and those tin can tanks that tend to get ignored at the same time.

I think that one thing this tree is missing too is some innate feat-like abilities. Bards are so feat-starved, they could use a hand. Weapon finesse would be a good one for example.

[CaptainSpacePony]

I am pretty sure that a 12/6/2 bard/monk/pally will NEVER become an OP class

Hmmmmm.... while it sounds like a cool build, for some reason I think IIYF is probably right on this one. Guess we'll just have to test it once it hits live Until then I guess I'll go roll up my new build
"Archon of Impossibility" (Barbarian 6/Paladin 2/Monk 6/Bard 6).

[CaptainSpacePony]

Thoughts on CHA to damage:
Don't do it. Yes, mechanically, it would be a HUGE boost for fightin' bards, but I just don't taste the flavor. I would much rather see swashbucklers get some defensive bonuses/abilities tied to CHA.

[MangLord]

Do we lose Swashbuckling stance if we have a scroll or wand in our main hand?

Bards are a UMD class. If I'm going to lose my Swashbuckling stance every time I use a heal scroll or cure wand and have to manually re-enable it afterward, you can bet I'm not going to have a lot of fun.

Beyond the sheer annoyance, that means you also lose Evasion at one of the times when you want it most -- when you're in trouble and need to pop a Heal scroll.

I'm curious about this, as well. The stance should stay active or it will be broken and highly annoying. The fact that my ranger's twisted Stay Frosty toggles off when I make adjustments to my ED bothers me enough.

[Failedlegend]

Just a few things I'd like to mention

I really like resonant arms decent spell-power affected damage (6D6) on-crit, on a crit based prestige works for me.

Oh and Am I missing something because people are complaining about an ability that gives +TWELVE to crit range how is that no incredibly awesome?

Bards are an incredibly feat starved class it might be prudent to add the SWF feats to the core abilties.

I'd rather see the insults (& SiTF/Low Blow) be on-crit effects I hate clickies on a caster class

No "improved finesse" like ability for either Dex or Cha to damage, no Swashbuckler should EVER use brute force to fight.

More stuff needs to scale with bard or character level so their not OP at low levels and/or useless at high levels (I'd actually like to see this more in all the prestiges really)

Zeonardo - Dirty Fighting - Use the battleground as weapon - While Swashbuckling, any breakable attacked in melee deals [dice] damage and slows nearby enemies
This is actually a pretty cool idea assuming its possible coding wise

Possibly add 1 Sonic Spellpower per point spent in tree to core 1

Ironically/slightly annoyingly this is becoming a better Spellsword than EK is.

Deflect Arrows is a little weak adding something extra to tier 3 might be prudent...maybe like "Tier 3: Deflected arrows are reflected back at attacker" (or at random enemy or targeted enemy) it would make it from meh to quite cool imo.

Elegeant footwork really doesn't need a cooldown if the "small chance" is 5% or less...It's kind of redundant I'd say a cooldown OR a small chance either works...but if you stick with cooldown (I'd rather just a small chance btw) shorten it 12 seconds is longer than most encounters and I doubt this works on bosses. So this is cool but not worth any amount of AP for a once per battle effect. Also how long does it last?

Evasion is a really nice capstone (for Swashbuckler) but Bards don't have a good reflex and since it's a capstone even if Pally was a valid multi-class you'd lose evasion anyways so I'd like to see a weaker version of Divine Grace called Duelist's Luck or something basically add 1/2 you Cha Mod to Saves

Some kind of auto-heal at low HP would be cool basically reflecting a swashbuckler's tenacity...call it "Second Wind" or something.

Despite my suggestions I am LOVING the flavour in this tree

[Nayo]

Here is another thought! Bards have always been the 'jack of all trades' and they do it well. I think it is important to NOT make the 'Swashbuckling Style' enhancements multi-selectors. I think the swashbuckler should be able to be flexible and swap for one-handed only to one-handed and buckler depending on the situation. That kind of versatility is very 'bard' to me.

Also, I say again: No songs???

[MangLord]

I think feats in general need to scale in character levels, so that is where I am going to come from.
Parry: +1% dodge at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20
Deflect: +1 to ac at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19
Riposte: +1 to prr at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19
Jab: up to +1 to hit at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20
Improved jab: bab 8 min and jab feat:+1x crit multiplier
Forceful strikes: when using a 1 handed weapon with nothing in your offhand, gain +.5[W] at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20

I like these. Scaling feats, particularly for [W] damage would be sooo nice. It could be a great feat for every fighting style, just adjusted differently depending on what you have. THF and TWF might only be +.25[W] every five levels, for example, while swashbuckling and sword and shield might gain +.5[W]. At epic levels, an additional 2.5[W] would help sword and shield builds tremendously.

[Nayus]

Mr. Vargouille, please have patience, you'll need a lot of patience.

Suggestion: Can we have an Evasion chance based on your bard level instead of a capstone? Bards become more appealing and it's better for Heroic content. Going all the way to cap without Evasion only to get it at Epics is sort of sad. But then we'd need a new capstone xD

[IronClan]

At this point in the thread I strongly believe it would be better if they got a final version of Swashbuckler out first, before cleaning up the other two. It will be easier to know how to adjust those

Sound in theory, in practice if the player base doesn't howl long and loud for improvements to the other two weak bard trees now then it will be another two years of fruitless "Bard's need love" threads...

[Tentaki]

Bards don't get good reflex saves inherently. Bards get +6 reflex over a "bad"

And bardshave MAD that isn't as bad as Monks and a few other builds, but they can't just sink all of their points into 2 stats the way that Wizards/Sorcs can, etc.

Wizards have good reflex saves (Insightful Reflexes).
Paladins have good reflex saves (Divine Grace).
Bards have the same mediocre saves as any other class, just with a +6 bonus over the terrible reflex saves that the worst characters get.

If you don't specifically gear for it, *EVERY* character has mediocre (at best) Reflex saves.

+6 inherently is quite a lot. If there was a feat that gave you +6 to your reflex save, wouldn't that be viewed as incredibly good?

I agree with the point that bards can't dump all their points into two stats, which is why I mentioned before it'd be really nice if swashbucklers could get dexterity of charisma to damage (and maybe to hit with charisma too), because it would give them one less stat to worry about (strength). Then your choices basically boil down to dex, charisma or con.

Even if with everything else, let's say the swashbuckler evasion only grants you the chance to dodge damage 25% of the time. That's still a 12.5% reduction in the overall damage you take from reflex based spells (since you would have taken half damage under normal circumstances from making the save). It's not useless, and I wouldn't even say that it's bad. But it's also not great, and certainly not worth dumping 40+ points into this tree, which is the point I was going for. I'd much rather save my enhancement points for something else and splash 2 levels of rogue instead.